How to make the Focal Kanta No. 2 speakers sing?

Thanks for the welcoming tone and also your suggestions here! I will look them all up and see what they are about.

The room serves as a family living room and not a man cave, sadly. So the acoustic treatment can't be too obtrusive. I only have absorbing panels on the front wall behind the speakers ATM. But I will walk further down this path. I've thought about contacting GIK acoustics and hear what they recommend through their "free acoustic advice", with the risk of getting just generic tips. Perhaps there are other goto providers that aren't too fancy/pricey but do the job? I live in Sweden/Europe BTW.

I also believe as you point out, soix, that a middle priced AVR probably is not really the way to go for a 2 channel system.

The sound characteristics of the Kantas when using the Yamaha AVR as amp is quite the same compared to the Purifi Class D amp and also a cheaper XTZ Class D amp I borrowed from a friend for a period. When using the Yamaha AVR asm amp the differences were more lower base (too much), less mid range (too weak) and a bit harsher sound overall. So I mean something more drastic has to be done.

Roxy, I'll try to remember to write a shorter TLDR section for you next time.

It's really good to get input from people with different experiences and preferences. Love it.

@deep_333 Thanks for the extensive Yamaha PEQ guide. I will give the Yamaha another 2 channel chance based on your tips, thanks for the push!

I have found that YPAO hasn't worked out for me though. I always ended up with measuring tape and manual PEQ settings, as you point out too. The other PEQ modes are not very good. Especially the subs needed manual setting as described. The enhancer gave me phase problems with the subs so it's turned off, as well as the other features you mention.

REW room simulator is a good tool, especially to identify the 32 Hz room mode I have. I have a Umik-1 as well but haven't overcome the hurdle to start measuring properly. Also on the todo list!

YPAO is not up to the same level as Dirac as I understand, thus a Marantz AVR was mentioned as a possible upgrade. Haven't heard one in action though...

I will do a shootout with the Eversolo/Purifi amp and the Yamaha with and without Purifi amp and see where that puts me.

The Eversolo is quite nice BTW, especially with the latest update which provided an impressive spectrum analyzer. Reminds me of my first stereo system I got in 1992, the Sony MHC 2600 which also had a spectrum analyzer 😀 Good memories from that one.

@soix I see the point here with the Yamaha AVR not having the best pre amp/ Dacs etc. It's a good allrounder with lots of functionality and is probably ok but not at the level of separates in a higher price range. That's also why I've been looking at a 2 channel path in parallell to the multichannel path.

@erik_squires I've also understood that the Kantas are current hungry despite they quite high sensitivity and need a capable amp to perform.

@larsman @mapman The speakers are indeed broken in and are 3-4 years old. I got them used 15 months ago or so and I have 1000+ playing hours myself on them. Some really loud hours as well, so they should be as soft and mellow as they could be.

Good tips from everyone. I'm, taking them all in consideration.

@rick_n Yes good, point. The ceiling is the weakest link here, plasterboard... It's a living room so I can't put anything up there for diffusing either.

@mm1tt77 Wise words. Great to hear you experience. Thanks. This is really what it boils down to.

An easy next step as pointed out is to mess around with the Yamaha AVR and see how far EQ:ing takes me. In combination with REW and the Umik perhaps. If that turns out well it might be a path to walk down further. And after a proven concept, perhaps later on getting a better performing device with EQ / room acoustics tools built in.

What about putting a pre amp, be it tube based or not, in front of the Class D amp. Has anyone done that in a case like this to achieve a welcoming warmth to the sound? Some sound tuning possibilities is also good to have.

I have not really planned to invest more than a like 2000€-3000€ on gear at this moment. On what would that money best be spent in this case?

Good input from everyone.

It seems that the Class D amp I have now is not really recommended at all in this setup. Noted. 😁 Also a few Parasound amp recommendations have come in. That might very well be a way forward. A used one seems to be possible to get here in Sweden too. The positive here is also that the sound when watching movies is affected when using the Yamaha as Pre and a Parasound as front speaker amp.

Also trying out a tube preamp would be a interesting. I will see if I can get hold of one for testing.

I'm not using Roon, but the "canned convolution filters" that you mention @mapman is worth some more reading up on. Never heard of these filters.

And as mentioned more room treatment is on the list. I will fire away an email to GIK and see what they have to recommend that is not too obtrusive and has a medium WAF at least. A level up is needed. I have sometimes put up some temporary generic absorbing panels (I have 12 pieces of 0,5m x 0,5m standard "ceiling absorbing panels" lying around for testing) for first reflections and center stage and it makes a difference. With correct positioning and tailored panels here the effect should be more noticeable.

Also the digital path for "treating the room" is interesting with all the kinds of devices out there. YPAO / Dirac / MiniDSP:s/ ...

@mfili35 They are 3+ years old and have at least 1000 hours on them. Probably 2000.

@dman777 That McIntosh looks like it Green Goblin's espresso machine 😀 Beautiful piece and probably sounds like how it looks. Just a tad over my budget though. About 10 times. I wonder what that amp does so right and if there is a shortcut to get in that direction on a slimmer budget.

I agree on the bass, it's controlled, fast and fun to listen to. Lower mids and a sterile sound is the main problem for me.

Saturday update: HiFi store visit. Sopra No.2 / Naim test

Yesterday I went to a dealer an hour away to check their store out and get some additional input to my questions. The store had a lot of different Focal speakers as well as Dynaudio, Sonus Faber, Audiovector among others.

In one heavily treated room (too much?) there was a setup with a pair of Sopra No. 2:s connected to a big stack of Naim New Classic 300 series gear (50 000€+). When it started playing I immediately noticed the Focal signature that I have at home with the brighter type of sound and the same feeling of lacking lower mids. The feeling after a few songs was that it could really have been my Kanta 2:s playing in that room, maybe sized up a notch. The bass felt a a tad slower but heavier. The overall sound signature was the same type as I'm used to, although exaggerated. I felt that the system to be even more in the fatiguing league than the Kantas. The volume was cranked up quite a lot though. Sound stage in that treated room (bass traps, wall absorbers, diffusers, absorptive ceiling ) was more compact, like a thicker/fuller wall of sound in front of me than I'm used to in my living room.

In another room (not as treated) there was a lower end floor standing Focal speaker setup (probably Vestia No.2) driven by an AXXESS Forte all-in-one box. This system didn't play as confidently as the Sopra system and it had a bit more boxiness and harder treble to the sound, as probably could be expected.

I regret that I didn't ask for another speaker brand to play next to the Sopras, like a pair of good Dynaudio:s, just to hear the contrast between the different "house sound signatures". I might very well go there again for this reason.

To sum the trip up, my takeaways and impressions:

• Even with a lot more expensive and "recommended" electronics (Naim) and a treated room, the sound signature I have at home with my current setup is really there.

• Makes me think that the electronics I have isn't that bad (in comparison to Naim at least).

• Sopras deliver even more of the "Kanta signature" in the mids (even less lower mids) and top (even "more" details/treble). Bass is a bit fuller/deeper but slower. Sopra's sound is more detailed (and fatiguing). The room could have fooled me though as I didn't hear the Kantas at the same time.

• If comparing Kanta No.2 to Sopra No.2, Kantas are the better choice for me.

• I will look into acoustic treatment of my room more. The effect in the demo room convinced me.

• The trip made my Kantas sound better to me. One of the cheapest tweaks so far, 😀

BTW: The dealer is arranging a few Naim events now where they were asked by the distributor to demo the Naim New Classic 300 series electronics with the Kanta No. 2. I asked why they didn't want the dealer to demo the electronics with the Sopra No. 2 or No. 3 that they also have in the store, but the dealer didn't really know the reason. A guess was to keeping the total system cost down.

Saturday update No.2: Acoustical treatment

I got a quick response from an acoustical treatment company. After having looked at a simple 3D model of my room they recommended, apart from tips for speaker and listening position positioning (1650€ in total):

• Bass traps in back wall corners

• Bass trap-diffusor-absorber behind listening position

• Early & First Reflection Point wall absorbers

• Absorbers behind speakers

As mentioned my room is a family living room, so I have to choose my way forward here carefully, mainly with WAF in mind.

To test the concept further I also placed some temporary 8 pieces 0,5x0,5m absorbing panels on chosen locations in the room. Mainly treating first wall reflections and an absorber behind me calmed the sound down. The treble and room reverb is taken down. This makes the midrange appear better and the sound is less fatiguing as well as the sound stage is more precise. As expected. This is really a way forward.

The risk with accepting the whole suggested package above is that it will be too much as I already have a big fabric covered sofa and a big carpet in the room. I believe I will gradually increase the room treatment and evaluate.

@tunefuldude Thanks for the Lyngdorf tip. I still have read up on what's unique with their approach. I heard a higher end Lyngdorf system at a HiFi show a few years back, with wall mounted speakers if I recall correctly, but wasn't blown away. Could have been the large room they had. I like the speaker wall mounting principle though to take down the room's effect . I will investigate further!

Yeah., the Danes are really productive and good audio equipment manufacturers. Can be tracked back to them having many audio universities/schools I've heard.

@snapoli2 

Its the speakers man. This is a common complaint with focal. Before you soend a ton of money on room treatment etc etc - TRY a tube pre. I would purchase a freya + (with the TUNGSTOL tubes) a great pre for the price (cheaper than installing a bunch of room treatment and you can return it if it doesnt do the trick). If it doesnt warm the system up then youll have a better idea that its the speakers. It try to borrow a tube integrated and try that. Best of luck!

The Freya + would be nice to try. I also like that it has three modes that you can cycle through for different sound characters.

@atanarjuat99 

My dealer has now ordered me a Pathos preamp, which I suspect will work well too.

A note on cables. They make a big difference. I upgraded my speaker cables to the DH labs Q 10. And also my amp power cable.

The Focals can sound amazing, but they need to be babied along on their journey to greatness.

My plan is to try a tube preamp and see where that puts me.

Cables matter, agree. Speaker cables mostly so I've noticed. That is for some reason really noticeable on my Yamaha receiver with the Kantas. I never experienced that when using the Aria 936 I had before. WIth the Purifi amp the speaker cable differences are smaller. I have a pair of QED Silver Anniversary XT that I used for a while to force a treble roll off. But it has other effects, rolled off and slower bass as well which makes the sound boring to listen to. So at the moment I use standard 12 AWG (4mm2) "pure" copper cable. I have to borrow a few cables when I'm ready and test what works for me.

@erik_squires 

Consider also combination absorbers / diffusors between the speakers, while focusing on absorbers on the sides as well as the ceiling between the listener and speaker. Not only does treating the ceiling add height to the images but they are a great, unseen space to add more absorption in the bands you care about.

I have been scratching my head about the low focus point of the Kantas. It seems that the sound emerges from my center speaker (while not in use) which is placed quite low, just below the TV (yes there is TV screen there which I sometimes use to cover up with a thicker blanket when nobody sees). I even tilted the Kantas a bit backwards in an effort to raise the focus point, but that didn't do much. Ceiling treatment might very well be the key to that problem. I will check if there is a more "hidden" treatment solution that can blend in.

@mjmcubfn 

I had these speakers for awhile and the Gaia II’s made a HUGE difference. If you can find them used, it’s a $500-$600 tweak and the difference for me was night and day. 

Yes agree, I have them installed. Quite noticeable difference for the better!

@soix @roxy54 

You’re fighting a losing and potentially expensive battle here for no good reason. Move on and be happy.  Sorry, but it’s now obvious and somebody’s just gotta just say it.  

I hear you! And you are probably right. 😀 I plan to better up the room acoustics a bit and borrow a pre and a power amp. If that doesn't do it, then I at least have a decently treated room prepared for a new set of speakers.

@aquint I dug up your old well written review of the Kanta No.2:s and your conclusion is what you state in this thread as well, basically to find the right pre and amp for them:

While the Kantas are not Sopras or Utopias, Focal has finessed the challenge of providing a significant slice of the performance of their top speakers at a more accessible cost. If you have a loudspeaker budget of $10k—and the right amplifier—the Kanta N°2 ought to be on your list of products to hear.

I noticed you even have your reviewer writing style when commenting in threads here. Entertaining to read 😀

I messed around briefly with Apple Music multichannel in my system but noticed quite quickly that my system is not up for a good experience given the weaker/cheaper center/surround speakers and Yamaha amp. 2 channel works much better for me. I have never managed to calibrate it fully to my liking for music. Movie watching works fine. Earlier this year I listened to an Atmos music demo session by Genelec using their "The Ones" for each channel (plus subs)which was quite cool.

BACCH /  Linn/DSM2 / XTC software. That's over my head at the moment. And probably price wise too. Thanks for bringing it up regardless.