How are most audiophiles going from streamers to DACS
USB a to b, , Coax, or Optical ? what's the better one ? I have a Node 2I and a Denafrips ares 2 dac thats in transit , what is everyone using for audio ? not brands of cable just format what way is better for streaming High rez music ?
This really depends on the equipment you are using. Since the node currently doesn't have a USB output, you are likely goin to have to settle on digital coax which will likely be your best performer.
That being said, it really depends on the gear. If I was using Chord gear, BNC will outperform any other input. If you are running Rockna, I2S is the best input but if not available, next best is AES and I have customers whoe report "glorious" performance between say the Bricasti M5 and the Rockna Wavelight via AES.
There is no universal truth on this one. The gear matters.
If you are starting out with just a roku or similar media streamer with hdmi interface, here is a very inexpensive yet effective way I have found to do it:
Make sure you are not mixing up fiber (i.e., optical) in lieu of Ethernet for purposes of bringing the digital information to the streamer vs. toslink (i.e., optical) as a means of conveying digital signal from the streamer to the DAC. The first is in no way a compromise compared to Ethernet (although some will argue that it depends on the interface). The second, optical toslink vs. electrical coax is discussed in this paper. BTW, Charles Hansen was founder/owner of Ayre Acoustics. If you click on his name at the bottom of the article it brings you to more discussion than you probably want. In short, both toslink and coax can sound fine although coax is typically considered better...unless you start talking to folks who use USB. Here is a post discussing USB vs. S/PDIF, which favors the USB interface, primarily because of the benefits of asynchronous mode USB, which slaves the source (i.e., server or computer) to the DAC. However, according to the author, S/PDIF interfaces have improved to the point where there is virtually no measurable or audible difference between the two, when properly implemented. This is beneficial to those who still spin discs with a CD transport, which typically output through S/PDIF.
Typically optical is of poor quality. SP/DIF (RCA) or AES will have full resolution. Music streamers normally will not have HDMI outputs, those are for home theaters.
A streamer can have a DAC with it. Normally if you talk about a streamer it wound be assumed not to have a DAC. But there are all sorts of combined units. If the unit is a streamer and DAC, then there is likely single digital output for connection to an external DAC and dual RCA analog (and maybe dual XLR) outputs for connection to a preamp.
Newbie question, looking to purchase a high resolution streamer. What I don’t understand is people hooking coaxial digital or optical to their receiver. I thought optical and coaxial didn’t have the full resolution that hdmi has for the new formats. If you’re using a high quality streamer, even with a decent receiver, shouldn’t you use the the RCA out to take advantage of the DAC from the streamer?
Living on a limited budget. Running a Bluesound Node 2i , Audioquest cables to a Shiit Byfrost, , sounds good but not close to the CD sound of the innous mini mk III. Running UDP on direct Ethernet. The details for symbol decay, ring, instruments blending. Bass is good on streaming but not as solid and controlled as the Innous. I can live with the streamer because overall it would cost at least twice as much to get some improvement. I love the simplicity and functionality of the Blu OS. I just sit back and enjoy the music. I am very happy it sounds so good for the cost and being thankful for what I have.
Herman... "I don’t know if the Node outputs 192 but that is not a Toslink limitation."
Just a point of clarification, I have my Node 2i hooked up to a Cambridge 851C I’m evaluating. When I use coax, the Cambridge DAC shows 192k. Then when I switch to optical, the Cambridge DAC switches to 96k. The Cambridge upsamples to 192k max.
Actually the optical/toslink issue, unlike many
sonic preference sin audio, is not a matter of opinion. It does not
support high res
all inputs on the DAC support 24/192. I don't know if the Node outputs 192 but that is not a Toslink limitation.
Not in the original standard and rarely supported. And part of the reason is the pulse spreading in the plastic optics. Its also a very old standard and since it is almost exclusively used by TV manufacturers, the focus has not been on improving it for high end.
As to USB, the real issue here is not "what magic cable should i thrown money at?" but "how do i get good sound?" Which really begs a different solution.
I started with the Node2i, connected via both Coax and Toslink to both a Sony AVR and then a Marantz unit that were "supposed" to support Hi Res. Both companies tech support knowledge about HiRes and connectivity was pathetic. I ended up with a NAD t758 v3i - with a BluOS module (with WiFi dongle/Bluetooth dongle) installed. The dongle connects to the module on the NAD via USB. Runs all Hi-Res streaming services including Tidal's MQA (let's not debate that here, it's more hype than actual performance worthy) via the BluOs android app. I also stream digital files from my PC - those files were my library of SACD's and DVD-A's that were converted to FLAC files. Easy breezy. Speakers are all Klipsch including a pair of Atmos.
Agree with reclocking. The transmitter and receiver are your limitation, therefore avoid bandwidth limited optical and go USB, possibly coax. Coax is TEM00 and USB is twisted pair, at least it better be. But this is digital so the cable bandwidth is not that critical as analog, and if you mismatch cable impedance, which is never perfect, your error correction from cable reflections, unless your connection is under 6", should give you 100% of your signal. I get no errors in my hi res system.
Optical should be the best in theory, but it's probably the worst because there isn't a good interface available, as far as I know everything in audio is toshlink.
80% of my listening is hi-res streaming from Qobuz and Tidal
My limited understand of the hierarchy of good, better, best guidelines is as follows, and in all cases the shorter the cable the better
optical, coax, USB, I2S
I've tested all of them and have gravitated to I2S
This is one of the areas where the symmetry dance between your components is important
The SQ of entry level electronics typically will sound their best when using good cables but great cables will not promote entry level electronics to reference grade sound
I agree with Herman. If you have a Node 2i, then you are limited to coax or optical. No USB.
I have always had better results with coax in most applications over optical. My Node is no exception. Per the review of the Node 2i by Audio Science Review, the SINAD is better with coax than optical, but that could have been an issue with the sample reviewed.
I have a Node 2i connected to a Denafrips Terminator via coax. Much better results than the internal Node DAC. In addition, I found that feeding the Node with an UpTone etherRegen added clarity and more soundstage depth. Sadly though, it still does not compare with the sound quality of my Oppo 105. I think there is limitations to the Node as a streaming device.
I've done comparisons between optical and coax connections from my Node 2i, and in my system the coax easily sounds better. Coax sounds more natural, and has less digital glare.
Wow, a tremendous amount of pontificating, bad advice, and stuff that doesn’t apply, If you are going to give "advice" you could at least see what the equipment is capable of.
gotta agree w herman
folks who spout without carefully reading the question aren’t really helping
you should perhaps try a usb reclocker if you are streaming from a mac book - here is one well respected choice of usb cleaner/reclocker among several on the market
Hmmm…. So many variations of advice. My streamer is a MacBook Pro that supports usb and optical. I tried many usb cables and while they all had a differing sound / noise signature all had a glare that induced listener fatigue. I tried the ifi device that allowed one to connect an external power supply to the usb connection. Improvement but still not great. And moving from switched power supply to linear also provided improvement. I moved to optical and the glare was removed. I could relax more and listen. And then moving to glass optical cable was a significant improvement over plastic/cheap optical cable. Optical support is going away unfortunately.
Wow, a tremendous amount of pontificating, bad advice, and stuff that doesn't apply, If you are going to give "advice" you could at least see what the equipment is capable of.
First of all, the DAC has USB, optical, and coax digital input while the streamer has optical and coax digital output. So all of you advocating Ethernet, USB, XLR, and/or I2S into the DAC are simply wasting his time since those aren't possible.
Also a lot of people spouting marketing hype like the Lampizator being the best USB solution possible. Of course that is what lampizator says,. I'm pretty sure the poster has no way to test any of their marketing hype but it certainly looks good on paper. All of the other DAC manufacturers with USB inputs have similar claims of superiority.
And then you get things like advice to use coax to XLR, which isn't even an option without an XLR input, but there is no way to properly implement it if there was
and
Actually the optical/toslink issue, unlike many sonic preference sin audio, is not a matter of opinion. It does not support high res
all inputs on the DAC support 24/192. I don't know if the Node outputs 192 but that is not a Toslink limitation.
so back to the original question
USB a to b, , Coax, or Optical ? what's the better one ? I have a Node 2I and a Denafrips ares 2 dac thats in transit ,
The Node doesn't have USB out (future firmware upgrade with no stated date of availability) so you have the choice of coax or toslink. The cables are inexpensive so I would try it both ways, but my educated guess is the OP will not be able to tell the difference. I certainly would not invest in expensive cables. This is a classic case of audiophile nervosa. The equipment is nice but no amount of cabling is going to make much if any difference.... make a choice... move on.
I find Ethernet is very good , and having a excellent dac like The Bricasti -M3 dac with Streamer module option works great ,and even has a excellent Analog preamp section from their M21 if you want to run direct to amplifier ,it’s better then most any preamplifier under $5k.
I have the same setup and switched to a RCA coax, with a 1m Silver Solids cable. Cable is custom made and an inexpensive. Amazing sound and detail with that cable.
you can adjust your sound preference with your preamp/speakers and speaker cables
I connect a Cambridge CXNv2 streamer to a Benchmark DAC 3b via RCA digital coax. I've tried about ten different digital cables and they all sound quite different from each other. Buying one "quality" cable and being satisfied only works in a system that can't resolve the differences. Experimentation with different brands will reveal the best for you.
Actually the optical/toslink issue, unlike many sonic preference sin audio, is not a matter of opinion. It does not support high res; and the optical/electrical component plus the pulse spreading generates lots of potential jitter. It is designed specifically for high electrical interference environments, and, according to lore, because Toshiba needed a differentiator.
Its great if you have lots of EMI floating around (TV sets for example). It is definitively the wort otherwise For most it will sound fine I use it from my TV and love the results for involved movies of the symphony.
I’ve got a Node 2 streamer hooked up to my MHDT Orchid tube DAC. As has been said, USB isn’t an option with the Node 2 and Toslink should be avoided. That leaves digital coax. I have RCA to balanced XLR. All of my interconnects are very affordable (direct sale only) entry level Silnote Audio out of Roanoke, VA. Top quality starting at $100. I’m very happy with their product and they have great customer service.
I2S or AES/EBU. Metrum Acoustics Ambre streamer to Pavane DAC
I had that exact set-up with Pavane and then later with their Adagio. I agree that with those pieces either I2S or AES/EBU sounded best. However, for my tastes, my Mojo server and DAC connected by a short USB cable is sonically equal in every way and better in some ways. I doubt the differences are solely related to the connection method but rather the digital processing implementation, power supply, and other factors. The server uses JCAT’s highly regarded XE USB card and the DAC is also optimized for USB so, at least with this gear, USB sounds very good. This is why IMO there is no one universally superior connection format but rather it depends on how the partnering equipment is designed.
Obvious. But "most" of us do not have a Node > Denefrips with his ears.
Ah, so by your standards, since none of us have *his* ears he shouldn't have even asked the question?
Give me a break. He wanted advice and to learn and voila! Lots of helpful posts and virtually no snark. This is called civilized conversation, by the way.
Hello, I use the Nordost Silver Shadow Coax cable from my BlueSound Node 2i to my DAC. Silver Shadow retailed for $540 when new. Some Nordost dealers have this in stock. Because Nordost discontinued the Silver Shadow they sell them for $270 new. I know this is half the cost of the Node 2i. You will not care when you hear the sound especially if you have a decent DAC. If you live in the Chicagoland area this store had some in stock when I was picking up my IsoAcoustic order. https://holmaudio.com/ You can try them out in your home before you buy them. If they don’t match your system just bring them back to the store. That’s why I love this store. No buyers remorse. Also, They are not audio snobs. If you want to buy some for $10 they don’t talk or look down at you. Take it from someone who has been a customer for over two decades. Believe me, I did not have a lot of money back then. This is why I go to them first. They will probably ship the Nordost Silver Shadow if you cannot find it in your area. I hope this helps.
I have a bluesound. I think the streamers that have USB are higher $$. Your streamer and DAC will give you satisfying sound. I am using a COAX, this is what is most common.
for the new release bluesound node, the usb digital output that is coming will satisfy some users who like that connection interface
i have had very good results using spdif digital out from the node 2i... since late 2019 i tried and compared it to much pricier streamers from auralic, aurender, innuos, mytek, and using them as streamer only (not their dac outputs) with their suggested output connection, i did not hear a difference in sq
in theory, the spdif format slaves the downstream dac to the clock of the upstream streamer, whereas usb 2,0 will allow the dac to slave the server... but if the sending unit clock is sufficiently stable and does not introduce jitter (and the connection length does not create reflections), the bitstream can and will be properly received at the dac using spdif
This can be very frustrating for someone setting up a new system. I did not keep up with latest changes for 20 yrs.
I have a bluesound. I think the streamers that have USB are higher $$. Your streamer and DAC will give you satisfying sound. I am using a COAX, this is what is most common. Other quick sound improvements are better power cords for your Dac and streamer and an ethernet cable directly from router to streamer. All this for $300. You can obviously spend more. Hook up everything and read some more before you change course and lose money.
The Node 2i does not have USB output. The new Node spec page claims that the USB-A jack will be an output in a future software update, which has not occurred yet to my knowledge. At present it is only an input, same as in a Node 2i. That said, I use an AQ Coffee 1M interconnect from my Node2i to my Mytek Liberty and that clearly beat out the BJC and Transparent Performance coaxes used previously…both much less $$$ than the AQ. At least I think so!
I have the Denafrips Ares 2 connected by the coaxial with a decent 75ohm cable, far superior to the fibre optic connection which I also tried, but once I get a better streamer with usb out I will go that way.
ps they are a fantastic DAC, you won’t be disappointed.
Ditto the USB advocates. When in doubt, start USB. There's a reason Aurender and Cocktail offer few if any other connections. True, all streamers and all DACs are different, but let the default choice be USB and regard that as the norm from which your components may ultimately be found to deviate.
i2S (RJ45 or HDMI) is the way to go! Once you hear a i2S capable DAC / Streamer setup, you wouldn’t wanna listen to anything else. You just to need to make sure your network is up to the task :-)
Back to OP’s query, given his components; I suggest SPDIF cable from DHLABS and Supra Ethernet cable from eBay.
at the top of the food chain it’s USB. the top dacs and servers are optimized for USB. it’s where companies like MSB are designing proprietary interfaces for USB optimization and servers like the Taiko Extreme have custom USB output cards.
USB is not perfect which is why there are quite a few different efforts to optimize it. it’s just the least compromised approach. it’s what i use. i also have Ethernet and a Renderer for my MSB dac but the USB interface sounds better.
however there are no wrong answers, and in the middle of the market there are many reasonable ways to get the digital stream from the server/laptop to the dac.
choose a dac then ask the dac maker what interface works best with that dac.
keep in mind that it's inevitable that better digital interfaces will be implemented, which is why if you invest in an expensive dac it should be modular so the interface can be upgraded reasonably and your dac won't become an expensive door stop. my MSB is fully modular and designed with future changes anticipated.
Ethernet or I2S. Most people will say there dac doesn't have those connections and you would be right. The better dacs do and for good reason. You can spend hundreds if not much more trying to get USB to sound half way decent and that's after spending $1000 for a good USB cable. Using a good ethernet cable, now you don't need a server in your audio room. Another plus! The most important piece of a server is the software that reads ripped data or streams data from an outside site like tidal. There are some very good software programs that will do this on a $200 linux raspberry pi box or a $50,000 linux server (I had such a box that I used for work with TB's of commercial NVMe and SSD storage along with 256G ram) and there isn't any difference in sound quality going thru ethernet and with better SQ than using USB. If I had to have a dedicated server in my audio room, then use I2S.
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