A word of caution about the VTL ST85. Ive owned one for about 10 years. It produces a lot of power for an amp based on 4 EL34’s but it’s rough on power tubes. (I always bias correctly.). I turned it on yesterday and one EL34 redplated and it blew a B+ fuse. Now that channel sounds a little off so its off to Roy Mottram for an inspection.
Helping a friend build a new system
A good family friend has recently retired and is looking to build a system for his home office. He used to own a nice sound system some 25 years ago but hasn't been actively pursuing the hobby. He was visiting my home a few weeks ago and I guess listening to my system must have inspired him to finally build a new one. He asked me to help set up a new system (new to him, he's willing to buy used). I asked him a bunch of questions to find out what he wants and how much he is willing to spend. His responses are summarized below:
1. Budget -- since he's retired he wants to keep the total system budget to around $7-8K (including cables)
2. Components Needed -- bookshelf speakers, integrated amp, cables. He already has a CD player which would do for now, but he might get into streaming later on. He owns a few hundred CDs.
3. Room size -- around 10x12 with 10 foot ceilings. Fully carpeted with some furniture.
4. Music genres -- jazz, blues, vocals (he's a big fan of Frank Sinatra, Chet Baker, Billy Holiday, etc.), and R&B
5. Listening preferences -- he is looking for an 'intimate' and cozy experience and wants to try tube amps with high sensitivity bookshelf speakers. He mostly listens at a moderate volume and can be sensitive to high frequencies.
He also mentioned that he has some hearing loss since he's in his early 60s and suffers from a mild case of tinnitus. I'm not sure if this plays a role in the choice of components but I thought it's worth mentioning just in case.
I will really appreciate it if you guys can provide some pointers. Please remember that he is retired so $8k is absolutely the max he can do. System synergy is important. And, please no Tekton or class D recommendations. He really wants to try some affordable tube gear as a starting point.
1. Budget -- since he's retired he wants to keep the total system budget to around $7-8K (including cables)
2. Components Needed -- bookshelf speakers, integrated amp, cables. He already has a CD player which would do for now, but he might get into streaming later on. He owns a few hundred CDs.
3. Room size -- around 10x12 with 10 foot ceilings. Fully carpeted with some furniture.
4. Music genres -- jazz, blues, vocals (he's a big fan of Frank Sinatra, Chet Baker, Billy Holiday, etc.), and R&B
5. Listening preferences -- he is looking for an 'intimate' and cozy experience and wants to try tube amps with high sensitivity bookshelf speakers. He mostly listens at a moderate volume and can be sensitive to high frequencies.
He also mentioned that he has some hearing loss since he's in his early 60s and suffers from a mild case of tinnitus. I'm not sure if this plays a role in the choice of components but I thought it's worth mentioning just in case.
I will really appreciate it if you guys can provide some pointers. Please remember that he is retired so $8k is absolutely the max he can do. System synergy is important. And, please no Tekton or class D recommendations. He really wants to try some affordable tube gear as a starting point.
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In that size room you need to budget some money for room treatments. In the same sized room I use the lowest cost GIK Acoustics panels for $700 + $200 shipping from GA to CA. I discovered something recently about the room acoustics that has allowed me to not use my DSP anymore. I was surprised I cold get away with this but it was luck that I found this out. I added a $200 acoustic panel in front of my CD rack and moved another reflective surface away from another side wall. Without the treatments, even my KEF LS50's overpowered the room. Now I use bigger floorstanders in the same room with the acoustic treatments. |
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Oftentimes small rooms can be problematic to tune for frequency modes and other anomalies. In this situation, Dirac Live room correction can be a game changer. A wonderful product that is both an integrated amplifier and a Dirac Live processor is the miniDSP SHD Power: https://deercreekaudio.com/products/minidsp-shd-power You also can load your CD collection onto a laptop or NAS and access it directly with the SHD Power, or over your network using the included Volumio streamer. Deer Creek Audio is an authorized miniDSP Dirac Series dealer. |
I have a similar sized room, and wanted speakers that could be placed 1 foot from the front wall. Would advise a sealed or front ported speaker. I went with a Vandersteen VRL CT standmount speaker and I’m very happy. Have a Vandersteen Sub3 subwoofer with it, and a solid state integrated amp (Belles Aria Signature). The VRL CT have decent low end that benefits from its proximity to the wall, and a sub could be added later. ATC is a good suggestion, though the Vandersteen and ATC are not very efficient, and would probably benefit from the tube wattage of a Rogue Cronus Magnum tube integrated to make them sing, offer some dynamic headroom. I think ProAc, DeVore 3XL and Fritz are great suggestions for the VTL integrated. I gave serious consideration to Fritz. My 2 cents |
I have owned many Harbeth and Spendor speakers. This Spendor 4/5 seems like the kind of speaker that your friend might be looking for. It is warmer sounding than the Harbeth P3ESR! https://generubinaudio.com/shop/ols/products/spendor-classic-45 |
@yogiboy Thanks for mentioning ATC. I remember listening to ATCs a few years ago, and I walked away with the impression that they were more on the neutral, cool side of things. It could have been a combination of other factors, but at least that's what I remember about them. @kennyc -- We still have about $3 - 3.5K left for the speakers. Since my friend has asked for an intimate, cozy listening experience, I did not want to lead him down the floorstanders path. I always feel that smaller speakers do a much better job of disappearing and creating the intimate sound that he is looking for. His room is fairly small, but we can always add a sub down the line if the need arises. |
@arafiq After purchasing the integrated amp, how much of the budget is available to purchase the speakers? Bookshelf speakers are limited in their low end bass extension. Is your friend aware and/or open to floorstanders? |
Another option is the sealed ATC ( acoustic suspension). My friend has the SCM 7 v3 and they sound great with his 60 watt solid state amp. Take a look at them or some of the larger models! http://www.atchifi.com/ |
Okay so one more thing I just found out is that there is a constraint in my friend's room where the speakers cannot be more than a foot from the front wall (behind the speakers). I've asked him to see if he can rearrange the furniture to create more distance. Does that change the speaker choice by much? I know that my Harbeth M30.1s need at least 2-3 feet from the back wall, otherwise they start to sound a little boomy. Sorry I should have known better to ask this question first. |
Okay, so looks like my friend is going to make a move on the VTL IT-85 amp. Thanks for the tip @jjss49 It seems to be crossing a lot of boxes for my friend. Seems to be enough power to drive most standmount speakers if not all. Doesn't hurt that it is hand-built in the U.S. And he gets to experience some tube magic. I'm really excited for him. On to the speaker search now .... |
Lots of ideas and ways to go, but if CDs are the initial medium of choice, then the CD player he already has needs to be worthy enough to be used as a transport with a quality DAC which must be made part of the system being budgeted for. Otherwise what's the point of doing this in the first place? The medium of choice HAS to be given a fair chance to show itself to full advantage. Also, as to tinnitus, my experience is that it is not a limitation on any way. The challenge will be optimizing the listening position and getting the speakers to image for him. He may find that in his ideal listening position in the room that the speakers do not image perfectly for his guests. |
@arafiq search my old posts discussing the fritz carrera be i tried (and bought) @jjss49 Thanks for providing the links to what’s currently on sale. That was super helpful. My friend really likes the VTL and VPI amps. What are your thoughts on long term reliability when it comes to these two brands? Also, can they drive Harbeth speakers well -- p3esr, C7, or 30.x? c7 and 30x should be no problem - p3 much less efficient, but his room is small, that should be ok too (he will need a sub w p3's) - playing semi nearfield at moderate volumes all the amps i suggested shouldn’t even breathe hard vpi is not really an amp maker, this integrated was a one off -- i think their gear is generally very well made, or harry won’t put his brand name on it, plus steve leung @vas in nj can service if ever needed, he is very good, very responsive vtl has reputation for great gear but iffy customer service... small shop... anyways tube amps are basically quite reliable, circuitry not so fancy - just make sure tubes are good, and they are pretty simple, lots of experienced techs can work on them |
Fritz and Spendor also sound like a good choice. Has anyone compared one of the Fritz models (in the $3-4k range) with Harbeths or Spendors? The reason I’m asking about Harbeth comparisons is that since I have two models in house, I can provide him with a point of reference. @lalitk Thanks for the Leben suggestion. This is one amp that even I would like to try some day. But from what I hear, you have to have super efficient speakers to get the most out of it. I might be wrong though. It is a lovely looking amp for sure. |
@jjss49 Thanks for providing the links to what's currently on sale. That was super helpful. My friend really likes the VTL and VPI amps. What are your thoughts on long term reliability when it comes to these two brands? Also, can they drive Harbeth speakers well -- p3esr, C7, or 30.x? Another listing that caught my eye is this one. Wonder if anyone here has experience with Lyric Audio (this seems to be version 1): https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649719517-lyric-audio-t100-integrated-tube-amplifier-w-new-kt170... Right now, we're thinking that if he buys one of these three amps, he can bring it to my house and try it out with my speakers (30.1 or SHL5+). I think it will give him a good idea of what it would actually sound like if he were to pursue Harbeths. I see a number of C7s for sale but not sure if they work well with tubes. |
"...At this point, he really wants to experiment with tube amplifiers...He feels that he can stretch his budget much farther when buying used equipment, and I concur.." For a first timer into tubes, I recommend buying a fresh new unit. Let him be the one that gets all the cream out of the new gear. Tube equipment gets hot and that ages all the components after time, best to be the first owner especially if you are new to tube gear. That will maximize his enjoyment. IMHO. |
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That sounds like a nice project for you. Your friend is fortunate to have someone like you helping him. I would keep it simple for now. I like the idea of the integrated amp. The CD player is fine but you might show him the advantages of streaming. I have a hundred CDs also but the streaming is so nice and convenient that I use it most of the time. And, I play Spotify songs with my iphone in my pocket when I go fishing. Good luck. |
Hello, I recommend Rogue Sphinx integrated amp. It does have a class D back end but has the tube sound. It has two sets of preouts one variable and one not for maybe a headphone amp and subwoofers if he wants. Plus, a built in phono stage along with three other line inputs. Dali Minuet or Totem rain makers. Both have good bass, they are small, and disappear. BlueSound Node or Vault if he wants to rip his cd collection too. Straightwire cables. Change the power cable to the Black Thunder. Very clean, powerful, neutral sounding cables at various prices. Rel T9x or T9i to save a few bucks or JL Audio sub like the D108. The KEF KC62 is good but I have seen it has placement issues. Last but not least is IsoAcoustics. Not cheap but make the system. ZaZen II or three Bordeaux Orea for the Sphinx and Aperta speaker stands. Also, another platform like the ZAZen to handle the turntable. This is going to be $800 to $1000 for the isolation equipment. This store in the Chicagoland area has all of this except for the Totems, but they do have a used REL T9 subwoofer. https://holmaudio.com/They will let him try before he buys. If he can swing it a Puritan PSM136 power conditioner. I should have put this first. The foundation is the most important unless he can run a dedicated line from the panel. |
Another piece of advice I gave to my friend is to buy something that has brand recognition. This is not to suggest that lesser known brands are inferior, but I have a feeling that it will take him a few tries before he settles for something he loves. So if he has to sell in the meantime, I don't want him to take a big hit. |
Some amazing recommendations and ideas! A huge thanks to everyone who contributed. So I talked to my friend on the phone a few hours ago and told him to take a look at this thread. I want to clarify a few things though ... 1. At this point, he really wants to experiment with tube amplifiers. This is not to say that he considers SS inferior, but I guess you can call it an itch that he must scratch. So I want to respect his wishes and only focus on tube integrated amps. 2. He was using the terms standmount and bookshelf interchangeably. He is fine with using speakers with stands. He was a little shocked when I told him the prices for some nice stands, but I think he should be fine with reasonably price stands from the likes of Pangea. 3. A few of you are wondering why I didn’t suggest Harbeth speakers. After all I have owned P3esr’s in the past, and currently own SHL5+ and M30.1s. So why not just suggest Harbeth? I don’t know, for some reason I feel that with Harbeths you have to match them with good solid state to get the best of out of them. If you must try tubes then you have to go for the big iron, class A, KT150 type of tube amps which can be expensive. That’s why I am a bit hesitant. My thinking is that if he gets high efficiency speakers ( >90 db), he can get away with modestly powered tube amps ... basically, more affordable choices. 4. He feels that he can stretch his budget much farther when buying used equipment, and I concur. Obviously, buying used has its disadvantages and risks. He won’t be able to audition and has to choose between what’s available. I told him to give himself 3 months instead of rushing to buy whatever is currently available in the used market. II’ve asked my friend to compile a list of speakers and amps mentioned in this thread as a starting point. Hopefully, he is going to make a decision soon. |
Two things: what I like and what your friend likes may be very, very different. The only sane way to buy hardware is to audition, audition, and audition some more. Then make a decision. A specialist dealer is your friend. But remember: your ears, your money, your decision. Second, cables (power, interconnect, speaker) offer the least bang for the buck. I suggest that you spend the money on better components, which, if chosen correctly, will offer much better return on investment. Connect them with literally the cheapest cables you can buy. Yes, cables can make a difference. Just not much of a difference compared to upgrading a major component. My interconnects are made from microphone cable, $1 a foot, connectors $30. That’s good enough for a system with a phono cartridge valued at more than your budget. I suggest that you set up with cheapest cables and test any cables before you buy. Compare cheap to expensive. Your ears, your money, your decision. IMO |
@arafiq room is small, but workable, listening will be semi nearfield... 6-7 ft triangle option 1 https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649764784-proac-future-point-five-speakers/ https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649740533-audio-research-vsi60-glorious-sound/ haunting sweet vocals, brilliant synergy between proac and arc tubes (how stew tyler voices em...) option 2 https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649643178-spendor-fl10-speakers/ --or-- https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisac7b6-vtl-it-85-tube https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649770311-limited-addition-vpi-299d-integrated-with-additional-tubes/ no classic series spendors out there right now used, this is closest thing... fl10 lovely top to bottom tonality, tweeter a bit bright, but offset by vtl or vpi, integrateds with rounded sound, brilliant vocal truth - fl10 won’t overload the room with good placement, the tweeter mid integration is excellent for semi nearfield option 3 https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisac832-harbeth-c7es3-monitors https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisac9h9-linear-tube-audio-z10-integrated-tube --or-- https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisaahaf-new-sealed-croft-phono-integrated-tube-amp-fabulous-hand-made-in-uk-tube c7’s beyond reproach for vocals and jazz, with bass weight too -- needs a little high end life sprinkled in, croft or lta will provide that while giving tubey goodness in midband and imaging having said the above, i think the best option given his room his tastes, and the likelihood he will be hooked once he streams, i would do option 4 https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisac832-harbeth-c7es3-monitors https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649763295-hegel-h90-black-finish/ bluesound node and https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649769481-audio-note-dac-21/ -- or -- an mhdt tubed dac for a grand my guess he would be happiest with option 4... c7’s ideal for semi nearfield lovely vocal reproduction with full range coherent response, hegel clarity and control of bass, tubey goodness from the lovely lovely ank dac, using rca dig input from node... he will be in streaming heaven will forget his cdp within a month :) hope this helps you along bud... it all comes in under his budget leaving room for cables and tidal or qbz subscription |
Raven Nighthawk or Prima Luna Evo integrated and Reynaud Bliss Jubilee's with their Magic Stands. Money left for appropriate cables from Audio Envy or other quality ID company and if found to be needed a pair of small subs from SVS, HSU or Rythmik. I've pushed the Bliss Jubilee's with both the Mystere (Prima Luna) 40 wpc EL-34 amp and the 30 wpc Music Reference RM-10 with no issues. I've owned four different versions of what started out as the Twins and this is by far the best version yet and with it's front transmission line port easy to place. An alternative would be the Fritz Carbon 7 SE Mk2. Both would be easy to drive but Fritz is rear ported. |
add a minidsp studio to this system plus a musical sub and enjoy the music https://audiophilemusings.blogspot.com/2015/03/ |
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I would tell him to go for a vintage american bookshelf speaker with a good used integrated tube amp and some decent kimber wire and interconnects. He will have great sound and for well under the 7 to 8 k mark. I would try a vintage pro audio monitor like the jbl 4310, 11 12 series and a used rogue chronos integrated great combo for way under budget. |
I love helping a friend build a system. How about a Yamaha integrated amp (A-S1200)---it has a phono stage and headphone jack included for $2500. It comes in silver or black It shouldn’t get hot (class A/B) which is good for that room size. There’s a variety of speakers that you could pair with it (Harbeth, Klipsch, Dynaudio...) This should also give you a few extra bucks for some decent cables and/or headphones, hopefully. Good luck. |
@arafiq, I would recommend a pairing of Harbeth’s with Leben Integrated (CS300X). Since you are intimately familiar with Harbeth’s, there are quite a few models available under $4K. The Leben often shows up used, this combo should set be around $7K. And you know the cables brands too, take your pick between Audio Envy or Zavfino :-) https://youtu.be/PsNDGtQwA2U |
