Helping a friend build a new system

Another piece of advice I gave to my friend is to buy something that has brand recognition. This is not to suggest that lesser known brands are inferior, but I have a feeling that it will take him a few tries before he settles for something he loves. So if he has to sell in the meantime, I don't want him to take a big hit.

Some amazing recommendations and ideas! A huge thanks to everyone who contributed.

So I talked to my friend on the phone a few hours ago and told him to take a look at this thread. I want to clarify a few things though ...

1. At this point, he really wants to experiment with tube amplifiers. This is not to say that he considers SS inferior, but I guess you can call it an itch that he must scratch. So I want to respect his wishes and only focus on tube integrated amps.

2. He was using the terms standmount and bookshelf interchangeably. He is fine with using speakers with stands. He was a little shocked when I told him the prices for some nice stands, but I think he should be fine with reasonably price stands from the likes of Pangea.

3. A few of you are wondering why I didn’t suggest Harbeth speakers. After all I have owned P3esr’s in the past, and currently own SHL5+ and M30.1s. So why not just suggest Harbeth? I don’t know, for some reason I feel that with Harbeths you have to match them with good solid state to get the best of out of them. If you must try tubes then you have to go for the big iron, class A, KT150 type of tube amps which can be expensive. That’s why I am a bit hesitant. My thinking is that if he gets high efficiency speakers ( >90 db), he can get away with modestly powered tube amps ... basically, more affordable choices.

4. He feels that he can stretch his budget much farther when buying used equipment, and I concur. Obviously, buying used has its disadvantages and risks. He won’t be able to audition and has to choose between what’s available. I told him to give himself 3 months instead of rushing to buy whatever is currently available in the used market.

II’ve asked my friend to compile a list of speakers and amps mentioned in this thread as a starting point. Hopefully, he is going to make a decision soon.

@jjss49 Thanks for providing the links to what's currently on sale. That was super helpful. My friend really likes the VTL and VPI amps. What are your thoughts on long term reliability when it comes to these two brands? Also, can they drive Harbeth speakers well -- p3esr, C7, or 30.x?

Another listing that caught my eye is this one. Wonder if anyone here has experience with Lyric Audio (this seems to be version 1):
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649719517-lyric-audio-t100-integrated-tube-amplifier-w-new-kt170...

Right now, we're thinking that if he buys one of these three amps, he can bring it to my house and try it out with my speakers (30.1 or SHL5+). I think it will give him a good idea of what it would actually sound like if he were to pursue Harbeths. I see a number of C7s for sale but not sure if they work well with tubes.

Fritz and Spendor also sound like a good choice. Has anyone compared one of the Fritz models (in the $3-4k range) with Harbeths or Spendors?

The reason I’m asking about Harbeth comparisons is that since I have two models in house, I can provide him with a point of reference.

@lalitk Thanks for the Leben suggestion. This is one amp that even I would like to try some day. But from what I hear, you have to have super efficient speakers to get the most out of it. I might be wrong though. It is a lovely looking amp for sure.

Okay, so looks like my friend is going to make a move on the VTL IT-85 amp. Thanks for the tip @jjss49 

It seems to be crossing a lot of boxes for my friend. Seems to be enough power to drive most standmount speakers if not all. Doesn't hurt that it is hand-built in the U.S. And he gets to experience some tube magic. I'm really excited for him.

On to the speaker search now ....

BTW, just saw someone mention Proac. That's another well regarded brand that he should add to his list.

@three_easy_payments -- thanks for suggesting Devore. This is a speaker that I won't mind getting for myself some day. I think the Leben and Devore make for one delicious meal. 

Okay so one more thing I just found out is that there is a constraint in my friend's room where the speakers cannot be more than a foot from the front wall (behind the speakers). I've asked him to see if he can rearrange the furniture to create more distance. Does that change the speaker choice by much? I know that my Harbeth M30.1s need at least 2-3 feet from the back wall, otherwise they start to sound a little boomy. Sorry I should have known better to ask this question first.

@yogiboy Thanks for mentioning ATC. I remember listening to ATCs a few years ago, and I walked away with the impression that they were more on the neutral, cool side of things. It could have been a combination of other factors, but at least that's what I remember about them.

@kennyc -- We still have about $3 - 3.5K left for the speakers. Since my friend has asked for an intimate, cozy listening experience, I did not want to lead him down the floorstanders path. I always feel that smaller speakers do a much better job of disappearing and creating the intimate sound that he is looking for. His room is fairly small, but we can always add a sub down the line if the need arises.

He has already pulled the trigger on the VTL I-85. I am a little concerned about the supposedly horrendous customer service from this company though. Well, it is done now ... too late at this point. 

@avitacom --

Its sound is very similar to a good solid state amp except in lower frequencies where it is inferior to a good solid state amp.

I talked to a couple of folks who have owned the newer version of the IT-85 and their impressions were just the opposite, i.e. tube-like sound in the upper frequencies and midrange (holographic, big, lush, etc.), but better bass than most tube amps due to its healthy wattage. Is it possible that VTL has made improvements in the new model? Anyways, it goes to show how everyone hears differently based on system synergies and listening habits. The good news is that as he continues his speaker search, I will get to try it out in my main and secondary systems in the meantime. I can compare it to other amps I have in the house -- Qualiton a50i and Moonriver 404. I recently sold the Blackhawk but it has not been that long (3 weeks) so hopefully I can do some comparisons albeit not side by side.

So top speaker contenders at this point ...

1. Fritz Carrera BE 
2. Spendor 4/5 
3. Harbeth P3ESR or M30.1

My friend has been reading about Klipsch Heritage line and is interested in Heresy IVs. Personally, I have never been impressed with Klipsch, but then again I have never heard them in my own system. Considering his goals, i.e. an intimate and cozy experience, close to front wall, etc., do you guys think Heresy's play in the same league as the top contenders in the list?

@dcevans -- I have no doubt that the Watkins are awesome speakers, but the problem with lack of brand recognition is that you take a bath when if you don't like it and want to sell it. Fritz, Spendor, and Harbeth are safer bets, especially if bought used.

So let me ask a hypothetical question ...
Say if one can buy a used Harbeth M301. (around $3k), or used P3esr (around 2K), would you get these or spend money on a new Fritz Carbon or Carrera?

You guys are awesome! 

BTW, he bought a used VTL I-85 model (newer version) at a very reasonable price, so we still have about $3-4K left for speakers and stands. We have added Vandersteen to the list, although I have no idea what the sound characteristics are like and how it compares to Harbeth or Fritz.

Another speaker company which I'm surprised no one mentioned is Proac. I heard one of their standmounts (I believe it was Response D2) a few years ago, but found it to be a bit forward and energetic for my taste. But this doesn't necessarily mean my friend will not like them either. I'd love to hear from someone who has compared Proacs and Harbeths, or Fritz for that matter.

@tomic601 -- After hearing about poor customer service and potentially short tube life of VTL, I was feeling guilty for leading my friend down the wrong path. It's good to hear your brother-in-law is having some success with it. If you have heard it yourself, do you mind sharing your thoughts regarding sound quality? Is it really more SS-like and lacking low end grunt as a few have mentioned earlier?

@jjss49 -- well said, and I agree with everything you've said. It has been a few years since I listened to the Proacs Response D2s at a dealer. I remember that they were driven by Audio Research separates but can't recall the exact model. I still found them too forward for my taste. That same day I also listened to Sonus Faber Olympica 1 with the same equipment and fell in love with the sound. What I've learned though is that sometimes you just don't know until you bring the speakers home. One of these days, I am going to buy a used pair of Proac Response to compare with my Harbeth 30.1s in the home office. It's just that the 30.1s do so many things right that I just can't bring myself to sell them to try out something else. But you never know. I might snap up a pair of used Proac Response D2 or Fritz Carrera BE if they every show up in the used market.

You are absolutely right about synergy. Last summer when I was auditioning speakers for the main system, I listened to a pair of Proac D48Rs at a local seller's house. He was driving them with some PS Audio equipment. I had never heard such lackluster sound coming from such imposing speakers. It was obviously not my place but I wish I could have told him to try them with some decent tube amplification. 

@tomic601 -- thank you for the feedback. I really hope my friend likes the VTLs. If it were up to me I would have asked him to do some more research, but I guess he found something about the VTLs very appealing and pulled the trigger. Hopefully, he won't regret the decision, But like you said, it should not be difficult to off load them if it comes to that. Personally, I would have preferred that he had bought the speakers first. Oh well ....

@kahlenz -- couldn't agree with you more regarding Harbeth P3esrs. I had them in my system for almost two years and absolutely loved the sound. These speakers are sort of like an acquired taste. When I first got them I was using KEF LS50 Ws and it was quite a difference. A difference which at first I did not appreciate. But once I put on about 100 hours on the P3esr's and got used to their sound, there was no going back to the KEFs. I upgraded to M30.1s a few months ago, but the P3s will always have a special place in my heart. I don't think any speaker does vocals like these little guys can, not even the more expensive M30.1s. The way they just disappear and draw you into the music is just out of this world.

The P3esr's were in fact my first recommendation to my friend. But the thing is that he really wants to try out tubes, and I feel that P3esr's really need some SS juice to get going.

@twoleftears -- My friend has been researching Fritz speakers and really like the Carrera BE model. The problem is that there are none that are available in the used market at the moment. He can buy new, but if he ever decides to try something else (outside the 30 day trial window), he's going to lose money one way or another. I've bought and sold used Harbeth speakers and never lost a dime. We'll continue to search the used gear sites for Fritz Carrera or Proac.

@dcevans -- my friend and I really appreciate all the advice. And thank you for being on the front line looking out for all of us. I have two cousins who are in the same profession as you. So many folks do not realize the dedication, hard work, and enormous risks that physicians and nurses, and their families take every day. Thank you!

VTL IT-85 is in the house! Since my friend hasn't bought the speakers yet, we've been testing it with my Harbeth M30.1s since this afternoon. I have to say this amp sounds absolutely sublime! No problem driving the 30.1s. The midrange is just exquisite on this amp ... it has the EL34 liquid smooth magic for sure! We were worried that this amp might be overly romantic or lush, but it's very balanced throughout the range. Vocals are quite good as well.

And yes, it is quite a bit better than the Blackhawk or the Moonriver 404. Has that big juicy room filling tube sound but without the bloat or even a hint of mushiness. Another thing we like is that it sounds excellent at low volume, no loss of detail or presence. My friend is saying that this is exactly what he had in mind when said 'intimate and cozy'.

This also goes to show how good the 30.1s are. These speakers definitely scale as you feed them a better signal. I must say this is the best I've heard them sound ... although, I've never tried them with my other amp, Audio Hungary a50i. Maybe I should.

The problem is that he now wants to buy my M30.1s too. We'll see about that.

@jjss49 -- we are really thrilled with the VTL. On Sunday, we did a side by side comparison with my Audio Hungary Qualiton a50i for almost 4 hours in my main system (SHL5+, Luxman DA-06). It was a lot of fun. I will share my impressions at some point.

So as for speakers, my friend listened to my Harbeth M30.1s with the VTL, and to say that he is hopelessly smitten is an understatement. So now he wants to buy my M30.1s. At this point, we have pretty much narrowed it down to either M30.1, Fritz Carrera BE, and Proac Response D2 -- in that order. My main concern with Fritz is that it is rear-ported and I’m not sure how it will work with only a one-foot clearance from the front wall.

I called Fritz on Thursday by the way. Had a very casual but informative chat with him. I really appreciated the fact that not once did he try to sell me something. How refreshing. If I end up selling my Harbeth 30.1s to my friend, I might think about snapping up a pair of Carrera BEs for myself. But I have no idea if it will be a side way move or not. OTOH, if I sell my Harbeths to him it gives me an excuse to go speaker shopping again :)