Have we lost civility and respect on Audio forums?

@uberk exactly.  Man I would rather not deal with the cable naysayers and equipment don’t make a difference crowd.  I literally upgraded my power supply to my streamer and the difference is a big jump.  I would rather talk about that without people jumping in with no experience babbling on about nothing saying I can’t hear a difference when I’m sitting in my house with my system hearing a difference.  

uberk

Would love to engage with fellow McIntosh and Nordost users ... without all the BS. Still looking for a forum like that

Audioaficionado.org "The Friendly Forum For High-End Audio." It has many experienced users and none of the nonsense that sometimes plagues threads here.

@uberk as you see someone trying to tell us what forums that cater to us. Because we don’t agree with them.  Jeez 

@cleeds thanks for the suggestion.  I wasn’t referring to you in my response.  I don’t mind suggestions like yours. I was referring to @scottwheel. I see that no matter what gonnna pop up to argue a point that most clearly don’t accept. 

How was suggesting the Hoffman forums an “argument?” 

Speaking of flipping off people in traffic...

A good friend of mine is a NJ State Trooper, he's on Rt.80 in plain clothes and unmarked car.  Some young man (idiot) perceived that he had been cut off by my friend.  The young man started swerving violently in his lane acting as if he was going to smash into my friend while screaming out the window and flipping him off.

My friend motioned for him to pull over, with that the young man began throwing empty beer cans at the unmarked car.  Of course this ended very poorly for the young lad.

Ya never know who you're messing with.

Regards,

barts

@calvinj  exactly. Never owned one of these pieces of equipment but filled with certainty that they will make no difference. 

If you don't own it, or have not owned it and tried it, zip it. Your unverified opinions that it doesn't work fill these forums with garbage.

Thanks @scottwheel  ... and @cleeds  .. last week signed up for both of those. This forum is about to be removed from my watch list. 

I think all interests where subjectivity plays a role inflame tempers, as every criticism becomes personal since it questions one's judgment. Look for, for example, Body Building Contest arguments or David Hurwitz critiques or reviews of the classical works on YouTube. He often mentions the hate mail he receives.

calvinj

... thanks for the suggestion.  I wasn’t referring to you in my response ...

Oh, understood, I figured that out! After a while, it's easy to follow the players here.

I mentioned audioaficionado.org not only because it really is the Friendly Forum For High-End Audio, but also because there are some real McIntosh experts there.

@calvinj  agreed on www.audioaficionado.org . actual owners versus those who have never owned it sharing their opinions.

I recently went to a dealer and had him demo Nordost Valhalla 2 versus Blue Heaven (which I use) on SF Amati G5s with a mix of components. McIntosh and others.

When Kashmir from Mancin was played ... blown away. It may not "show a reading on some electronic reading device" but I absolutely heard the difference. It blew me away. Blown away.

And no .. not confirmation bias because I am very judicious with my hard earned cash .. which is why I love US and Canuck Audio Mart ... love buying there.

The same way I loved the sound of a SF versus B&W. It was such a clear difference.

Many excellent points and observations, here! 

this site has become more combative and nastier than ever..though still fun and useful at times...what bothers me more, in connection to this, is all the wrong technical information presented, and the presentation of personal preference for fact, and the self appointed role of expert...I find this behind much of the combativeness...

the IGNORE skill must be cultivated and converted to mental muscle memory…but observing the village idiot / drunk / know it all / is helpful…if even just to avoid the toxic trails they leave..often in impressionable minds…..proves a valuable ocassional sample….

People in general are angrier. Remember a time when one breadwinner was enough to guarantee college for the kids, a station wagon, and a part of the American Dream? Now healthcare is 8Gs a head. Property tax is insane. Bills until you die. Exponential population growth, destruction of the woods, maddening landscaper noise in the neighborhood, and more folks on the road. Even the sky is teaming with planes. Children are shooting up schools while politicians cause division so their pals can sell more weapons. Yeah, internet rage ain’t nothing compared to all that.

oh, and this village, like any on the web and this particular universe, has more than one idiot…..

Fine doubles, fly rods, boats, wine, scotch, magnetic tape, fine hunting doubles, master ingravers, bird dogs, even deck boot discussions can get edgy….. the IGNORE feature will serve you well… its a line of code in your brain….

Yeah, it aint just on audio forums. Everyone's suddenly an expert, everyone can't wait to show off that they're and "expert" and it sure feels safe sitting in front of a keyboard attacking, arguing, bullying people. Unfortunately though this behavior bleeds over to the "real" world. Agressive driving, rude/selfish behavior in public etc. It's a cultural shift in my opinion. Frustrating how much the internet and social media in particular has impacted everyone. 

@uberk I agree 100% with your assessment.  If you have not owned the really good stuff you haven’t had the experience to truly comment on what smthg is or isn’t doing. My Dac is one of the most expensive out there our Method 4.  I bought it because I know the science behind it. Our owner work with Ressonessence labs the sister company to Ess Sabre Labs. He has insight on the 9038 Dac chipset that almost no one has.  My Dac is built with multiple power supplies and special mini  heat sinks separating each Dac chip to limit any heat thereby limiting distortion. When you have a product like this it’s going to cost you and I was ok with getting it because of what it does in my high end system. Some of these guys commenting don’t own anything at those levels so they just want to put it down.  Then they wanna act like the smartest guy in the room by judging a singing contest before the singer even opens their mouths.  One particular person responds repeatedly. He probably doesn’t in or have any experience with higher end gear. Then when you try to tell him that it devolves into we are being emotional ?  What sense does that make ? 

@everyone I stay on this forum because I don’t want the naysayers to mislead those who truly seek to improve their systems. 
 

@ellajeanelle i agree.  No one wants to come argue all day.  Make your point once or twice.  Some people have taken the joy out of the forum and the hobby. Trying to ram inexperienced comments down your throat. 

@calvinj - I think you uncovered a core issue there - one’s inability to consider the possibility that they may be wrong. I believe humility is a waning virtue in our society. Partially because folks cannot separate the ideas of humility and humiliation (or do not realize they are two different concepts entirely.)

Just my take. I could be wrong. :)

I post to share and read to learn. The acrimony and snark is noise and it is something I just scroll past. I'm not going to project the behavior on the comments of an Internet board to the decline of civility at large. There are some good, knowledgeable people here. If you are looking for solid information v. acrimony, it is pretty easy to distinguish --

FWIW, I spent 35+ years litigating out of NYC on a wide range of cases throughout the world . There was a way to handle disagreements without throwing a tantrum. 

@linnvolk yes I agree.  Some people will never admit that they could be wrong.  But to never hear smthg and tell that person who owns it that they are not hearing differences. Makes no sense. 

Dealer joins audio forum.  Pushes product.  Tells users he’s right, and they are wrong.  Gets push-back.  Gets butt-hurt.  Starts thread bitching about this situation.

i have I missed anything?

This question does not even need to be asked to know the answer. The aura of anonymity and the "Keyboard Warrior" mentality has created the perfect storm for people to be complete and utter asswipes online. Things are said behind the "protection" of a screen and a fake username that would never be uttered in a million years if the two parties were face to face. That is the rude society we live in now.

It’s sad that the best solution to put these keyboard warriors, trolls, and bullies in their place is a swift Mike Tyson-like punch in the nose. But then the "puncher" would be accused of being a bully, get "doxxed", cancelled, sued, and have their name run through the mud. The "punchee" would be hailed as a "poor victim of some crazed MAGA-nut, Radical Alt-Right lunatic" and a GoFundMe account would be set up and raise $2.3 million for his "pain and suffering" and future "Specialized Trauma Counseling" he must seek for the next 25 years.  Sorry if the truth on all accounts hurts. I didn't say, "I WOULD BE THE ONE PUNCHING" -- I learned long ago not to feed the trolls and to just walk away.  I'm just saying that solution would shut a lot of people up. 

Anyway, I give my post 5 minutes at the most before it is removed by the "Big Brother" moderators.  Can you tell I’m fed up with seeing thread after thread "Removed By Moderators" for absolutely no logical reason whatsoever?  Example: A recent post about a scammer that had several Members backing up the post and providing their own examples of being scammed by the person.  Why would this post, one that may protect future Audiogon buyers, be removed by Moderators?? 

@allenf1963 yup. I agree. People can be deebo behind these keyboards. Because you are right you got to have a motive or be a shill. Put your earbuds in and accept that you might be wrong. Nastiness on steroids 

Dealer, audiophile, owner or hobbyist. Just treat people with respect no matter what. Show civility no matter what. 

@calvinj -- Perfect analogy...."Nastiness on steroids". Switch out the "Clear Juice" in the hypo with Morphine and Xanax. Watch them go from "Troll Warriors" to "Space Cowboys" in a heartbeat. I for one am all for that.

But at least unlike Audio Asylum, lately, A’gon has not been a political-fight-free-for-all. Actually, audio asylum claims it isn’t either, and the way the moderator deals with political posts is he deletes the ones that are contrary to his political mentality.

@allenf1963 exactly. People think they can categorize and that’s a reason they can’t talk crazy to you?  Nope just respect people. I been in Audiogon for 15 years only been selling gear for 4.  Nope just respect people like you would have to in person. 

“Dealer, audiophile, owner or hobbyist. Just treat people with respect no matter what. Show civility no matter what.”

Do your words sound respectful to you?

”People can be deebo behind these keyboards. Because you are right you got to have a motive or be a shill. Put your earbuds in and accept that you might be wrong. Nastiness on steroids”

” Some people have taken the joy out of the forum and the hobby. Trying to ram inexperienced comments down your throat.”

” If you have not owned the really good stuff you haven’t had the experience to truly comment on what smthg is or isn’t doing. My Dac is one of the most expensive out there our Method 4.”

What I from your words here and in other threads are often uncivil and disrespectful. What do you actually know of other peoples’ experience or the quality of their sound systems? Have you heard the sound systems of the folks you demean as inexperienced? Who is the arbitrator of “really good stuff?”

“I think the inability to accept that one might be wrong is the bigger problem.”

Do you think this also applies to you? Or does it only apply to audiophiles who disagree with you? Respect and civility are two way streets. Maybe you don’t see your comments as disrespectful but I have a hunch that if I said you were “ramming inexperienced comments down our throats” and that you have never owned or experienced “really good stuff” you would probably find it disrespectful and uncivil. 

I do not think so. Most people are civil and helpful; some are not. Those that are not use the anonymity of the www to bully people. There is one forum in particular on which people are very opinionated but blinded by their ignorance. Proffer a dissenting opinion and you will be ridiculed and thrown off that forum.

Good evening/morning....and mho....the only one I have....

I chalk a lot of the day to day to the stresses of living in a growing population in towns, cities of nearly any notable size, and esp. the major metro areas.

We're exposed to the daily 'news cycle' of which I certainly don't have to list the horrors of ongoing conflicts, the heart-rending pathos of humans, the flora and fauna we share and send off into various oblivions, the trials/tribulations/the startling displays of outright greed and/or downright stupidity...

...and what's seems to be an utter lack of 'uncommon sense' and nominal civility.

It grinds at ones' soul, noticed or not....but, it does 'get to' us all.

We're all in this gene pool, and some swim better....some are happy just being able to tread at the surface...some just float, buoyant enough....

....and then there's those that aren't doing so well....at anything, in some cases...

Simplistic?  Perhaps....No simple answers, no matter how one approaches it...

I may not agree with nor share ones' viewpoint(s) on things of an audio nature, but I certainly will agree with you doing whatever boats your float.

As long as you will allow me mine, and my potential to ignore your sage advice. ;)

"If there be self-made hells, we all must live in them.  Mine may be no better nor worse than someone else's..."

Y'all Are 'pleasant company'....overall.  I try to give back what I read.

Not always on subject, tho'....'nature of the beast'...*g*

New Years' resolutions, anyone? 

Deep regards, Jerry

asvjerry

Those are well written eloquent thoughts and words to defend atrocious behavior. But I think society has been defending this kind of behavior for too long. Respect for others is something everyone here should know by now. We have enough people around us who lie, cheat and from all walks of life for whom are never held accountable for very bad (even criminal) behavior. Do we not draw the line somewhere? In order for any country to maintain civility, rules, norms, laws and order we must draw lines. Don’t cross them. "What happens if I do?". Well people walk away, they vote for the other guy, they walk out of the car dealership, they move out of the country they live in. The niceties of the society they lived in.... go away. Yeah, I think many us in the world are tired of lying, bullying, arrogance, cheating and rudeness...

BTW overall I agree with your comments. I just don't think any of us should excuse

butt_ole behavior.

@scottwheel not trying to be nasty towards you but every thread I put up you come on and respond to like 10-15 times and yes you have a right to do that if you like. Not trying to be mean but in my opinion like you gave yours maybe you should go to another thread or platform. We all have accounts here and threads we start. Everyone has a right to participate but I created another thread because of your excessive commenting. I can’t tell you how many times to comment but I will tell you I would never take any audio or life advice from you. Your audio comments in my opinion come from a place where a listener has not actually experienced the same type or similar gear I have access to. That would lead to inexperience with that type of gear which someone like me would never take your advice. The other part of this that you literally take posters comments break them down and post continually annoying responses because they call you out on your comments. Sir you are the type of guy folks like me are speaking of. 1. They think they know it all. 2. They have to get the last word. 3. They typically don’t own higher end or resolving gear. 4. They want to always be the smartest guy in the room but never show you what the made on the test. 5 unable to even take the test or even the class. 6. They wanna tell you what you are not hearing while you are listening to your gear with your ears while they type with their fingers. 7. They give you a scientific analogy saying your ears are tricking you. 8. They will eventually get mad call you a not so nice word then blame you. 9. The don’t like to learn any new ways the just wanna to teach you their flawed way. 10. They run off all the positive vibes and mature legitimate discussion. Now go ahead and repost this and break it down with your responses as usual. I wish you wouldn’t comment on my threads but you will show us you are the smartest guy in the room on repeat. Lol. 😂. 

It was obvious from the start where this one would end up. Almost like s set-up…

@uberk your response hit the nail on the head for me. I tried to not be specific in the gear that I own but had to comment on it to show the differences in the level of gear that one has to be able have experience with to be able to hear differences. Typically but not all of the time when you buy the expensive gear you are paying for technology, build quality, innovation and performance. Once you experience that performance then it changes what is possible in listening to your system. Your gear then becomes more sensitive to cabling, tweaks, power supplies, amplification and even sources and source materials. If your gear doesn’t have a low noice floor then you will not be able to hear your system in its fullness. If the power supply is weak then it will not project into the listening environment with the same level of potency. Even in low level listening. There are just things that you don’t know when you don’t have experience with that type of gear. That’s not being uppity. That’s just the truth. I remember when I had the battery powered veloce gear in my system and it had 0 noise floor because it was battery powered. There was cleanness and purity of sound that led me to seek out gear with the ability to have no background noise so I can hear more of the music soundstage etc. That’s how I ended up getting what I have now eventually. That first experience in the higher end changed my perception on what was possible. If you don’t go through those kind of experiences in this hobby like most of us have I’m probably not going to put a lot of stock in your opinion. I can’t tell that the continuous commenter hasn’t so I wouldn’t take his advice. Also, when you try to nicely tell someone this. Then they get offended and try to get back at you because you told them where they probably are in their journey and because you are further along in yours they even become offended about that. In my experience the better matched and typically more expensive systems if they are matched correctly allow you to truly hear music in all its glory if you have the right cabling, tweaks, amplification and power supplies etc. You have to have reallly well engineered equipment that limits distortion and noise etc. it doesn’t always have to be expensive but in most of the higher end gear that is the baseline.

@uberk @cleeds I definitely see your point about audioaoficiando. I was on Audiogon for years and then this one guy started commenting excessive about cabling and .999999999999 purified copper etc.  come to find out he didn’t have a decent system and he was only commenting as an annoyance. Part of the reason I left Audiogon was the nastiness. The fakeness at times. In addition to that people commenting that just don’t have the understanding that we have. IF YOU AINT GOT THE GEAR YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE THE EAR! If your baseline of what is possible isn’t at a certain level you just don’t  know what’s musically possible in a system.  That’s not the case all the time I would say most of the time.  All of this comes with experience. The ability to learn. The ability to not be BUTTHURT because someone probably knows more than you. The ability to not be the smartest guy in the room and learn from those who have more experience or even different experiences than you have.  I learned  from guys earlier that had way more experience than I had and I’m glad I listened instead of running my mouth. 

“I can’t tell you how many times to comment but I will tell you I would never take any audio or life advice from you.”

I’m crushed.
 

But if I were to advise you I’d suggest selling everything you have, save up and then modify your room so that it is an actual excellent acoustic space and get what I have. But that would probably come off as uncivil and disrespectful so I will refrain from offering such advice. 

@scottwheel no thank you. Wish you all the best doing things your way take care. Most of the folks who own the type of equipment typically have already worked on their rooms? That’s not some big audio secret. Either have worked in their rooms or get equipment that work best in their environments.  Most of us are past that point. 

Experiencing Music being performed of any Genre is a form of entertainment that can be attained through a variety of methods.

A live creation of musical performance can be encountered in a variety of ways and with the Season to be Jolly being very close, a Public Performing Choir or even a Pantomime are more than capable of offering a satisfying entertainment.

What is most important is that it is very rarely seen, that a individuals preference for Genre of Music or their methods selected to encounter a live performance is challenged.

Some individuals seeking entertainment will travel thousands of miles to encounter a particular performance of interest. Another will be happy to attend a very local venue as their most extreme efforts to seek out this type of entertainment. Again such attitudes are very rarely seen challenged.

I believe an important part of this type of musical experience being left alone and not challenged, relates to those being informed are knowing the individuals reporting are having genuine experiences where the impact of the encounter is belonging solely to the individual offering the report of what was encountered.     

Experiencing Recorded Music is not too different from the attitude to live experincing live music, not many challenge others on the Genre of choice and not many challenge other on the Medium used as the source of the recording.

Where there is a separation is where different Audio Equipment becomes a requirement. The use of Audio Equipment offers and extensive range of options, with equipment that can be Months Old in their designs and extending back 60 Years. Each ancillary will involve choices to be considered and most usually purchases to follow.

In general the mainstream of Individuals with an interest in replays of recorded music are not experienced in a large range of Audio Equipment, most have very limited experiences of equipment in use. This limitation leads to many with an enthusiasm for using Audio Equipment to rely on the findings of others from those  who have had alternative experiences or those who are with a broader range of experiences. Individuals with a limited experience become dependent on others to infill their own lack of knowledge about options for Audio Ancillaries.

The next in the process is making a Purchase, everybody wants to believe they have made wise choices for their monies being parted with.

Many individuals today are Purchasing by the influence of Brands Name, the very clever Marketing Strategies in use and underpinning there attraction to an Audio Ancillary by finding descriptions offered by others to help reassure the choice being made is a good one. The chances of encountering description from anybody with other matching ancillaries and listening environment as those in use by the individual seeking further info is a very very slim chance.   

Prior to a purchase, experience of a ancillary are commonly based on written description only, where the individuals offering description are in many cases with limited Audio Equipment Experiences and the Systems being used by these individuals are quite unfamiliar to others. To use such written content as an assessment of the sonic quality of an item Audio Equipment, really means that Prior to a purchase, the  listening experience being fabricated in ones mind is a fantastical idea and is indirectly a gamble on the outcome to be encountered.

It can become quite an affront if an individual has made an assessment based on discovered written information and are then informed they are with other options that can be a betterment. This type of challenge can be met with a range of countering defenses. It can become quite a battle ground if counter challenge is being made from the source of the supplied info that is quite defensive and others get on board who feel the need to chime in. 

It is without doubt that there are a lot of options on Audio Equipment to be considered and for the bulk of a Forum Membership these options are not going to be experienced as an ancillary demo'd/heard in use by being in front of a Pair of Speakers showing how they influence a sonic. The differences of opinions being publicly expressed on such matters where experiences have not been had will be futile, as there is no experiences had, as a means of substantiation. Only on offer is seemingly a bias towards a Particular Brand, Aesthetic or Written Description.

There is plenty of Items to be seen in the Market Place that are from a established Brand, well Marketed, Aesthetically Pleasing, but from my end not recommendable as a purchase, only as a item to be encountered and experienced in use, before any further decisions are made. Maybe I'm too Old Skool.      

 It is also without doubt that if an individual has heard an ancillary in use in a system, maybe even been fortunate enough to have had a trial in the home system as well. If the outcome is that it was impressive enough and created an attraction wanted to be maintained, with the outcome being a Purchase. Who can intervene and suggest such a preparation for a purchase as being the wrong approach. 

There is plenty of forum activity that can lead to:

                         'Toy's being Thrown Out of the Pram'.          

Dealer joins audio forum. Pushes product. Tells users he’s right, and they are wrong. Gets push-back. Gets butt-hurt. Starts thread bitching about this situation.

i have I missed anything?

You got that right...He must be hurtin on sales because dudes are possibly fleeing after they get a whiff of his "personality". But, in his head, he’s still the ultimate victim (with his very sly "holier than thou" repeat portrayal on threads)... doesn’t yet seem to realize that he needs to re-examine himself a lot more.

@deep_333 man look I’m not butthurt or anything.  Look we all have our opinions.  We all  start our threads. I’m just like anyone else. If you say smthg that I disagree with we can debate it.  It’s not  holier than thou or anything else. You have said how you feel and now I’m saying how I feel. Just being direct. I’m not hurting for sales.  I do this as an additional job. I have ran my other business for the last 22 years and I’m successful at it.  A lot of us are just in different places.  You and I may not think alike and I’m ok with that.  I don’t know you and you don’t know me. I work with a great guy who has started a great company so I actually hold back some of what I would normally say. I left Audiogon a while ago because of the kind of comment you just made about reexamining myself etc.  The internet allows us to say some things to folks that will never meet and you are doing that now. But anyway I wish you all the best.  I’m no victim or playing to be one. I enjoy this hobby. I been blessed in it. I will continue to do it the way I see it. I’m not going to let you call me a shill.  I’m not going to let you say I’m just saying stuff because I recently became a dealer. I been on Audiogon for 15 plus years. Anyway I’m not going to bother trying to convince you or anyone else here. I’m only addressing you because you made some comments about me.  Anyway. No issue with you at all. I hope you enjoy the system you have and this hobby. Some people get mad because I will never agree that cables don’t matter. I think they do. I know they do.   I think build quality matters in equipment matters. I think innovation matters.  I think at certain price points you get really great equipment if you do your own research. But anyway. I have no issue with you. I wish you the best. Take care

@jacobsdad2000 man I appreciate your comment and your understanding. Look we all have experience in this hobby. I’m not going to let a guy tell me cable’s don’t affect the sound and not take him to task on it. I know because I have spent the previous 15 years trying any cable I could get my hand on. I have listened to systems where the cable turned one system from blah to almost great. That’s how I got into doing what I’m doing the owner of the company literally saw me replace the cables and open up the sound of a system. In addition to that being a dealer is new to me. I am used to people being nasty at times. I come from a background where I don’t take flak from anyone. But to say I’m hurting in sales is ridiculous. I’m pretty self assured about my audio options and opinions because I have put the work in. We literally allow people to demo the cables before they buy them sometimes. I want people to be happy with the purchase and I want them to enjoy the music. I’m a hobbyist first before anything I want people to be happy. Man I have met a lot of great guys on here. I’m going to stay away from the negativity. Thanks for your post and I look forward to conversing with you in the future.

@pindac great post. A long post but a great one.  It’s well thought out. You made a lot of great points. 

The internet is one of the most wondrous inventions ever.  It also gives a platform to every idiot on planet earth.  On forums like this, its just irritating.  The most dangerous thing is when world leaders who have control over entire countries and their nukes, start playing to the internet crowd.

Cheers

“Have we lost civility and respect on Audio forums?”

Civility, was it ever found?

@wturkey @rok2id i agree civility was lost a long time ago.  I actually quit posting on Audiogon about 4 years ago.  I left because it became less about sound and more about personal insults. Challenging people’s intelligence and integrity.  Stuff that people do on the internet but wouldn’t probably do face to face.  It kills the conversation where people can learn and or enjoy.