Have we lost civility and respect on Audio forums?

Its kinda of hard to maintain that don't worry be happy attitude.when things are going to hell. But just try and keep a stiff upper lip as things will get better, especially here. in time. Now I'm signing off before I get carpet-bombed.

@koh_i_noor i left the platform because of the nastiness because I represent a brand i don’t wanna go off cause it hurts our Infigo brands so i watch it now.  People who don’t know you talk super reckless. They say stuff that’s disrespectful. Like i work hard for our owner at Infigo because I see his vision and he makes one hell of a product.  But I’m not hungry for sales.  I want him to succeed because he is a great inventor designer. I work with him because the level of equipment he makes is unlike anything I’ve ever seen.  But because I’m saying this people are nasty and accuse me of shilling and they don’t know me. We literally allow free demos but folks wanna just be nasty.  So the Audiogon platform has really turned me off. 

Yes, I have been away for a while and upon return, surprised by much lower civility than years past.

     Too bad we can't gather around a table somewhere and indulge in the FESTIVUS tradition*.

                                   Wouldn't that be fun?

                                   *ie: 00:45 thru 00:60

Just watched the trailer.  Count me in.

Poor Things is a must see!

Hallmark movies are just sanitized bodice rippers....and I'd need to drink through them...

Earlier, Ev 'n I watched Barbie, strange enough in its' own charming way...

Best line:  Heckled by some blue collars about her obvious 'charms', announces:

"I have no vagina."  (Ergo her own 'drinking problem'...*smirk*)

Tickets for Thurs evening: Poor Things. 

Looks like my kinda girl....;)

My wife and I have made a drinking game out of watching Hallmark movies.  There are key elements and phrases we've memorized that are pretty predictable (and, consistent) and when they happen -- Cheers!!  

Yeah, I know, but it beats watching the news.

predictable as a Hallmark movie ending

that's what I tell my wife: "don't spoil it for me, I won't know how it ends until the credits!"

Predictable as a Hallmark movie??

Those things keep me guessing to the very end.

So many plot twists!

So much bickering.  Is it possible that some of you are somehow married to each other and just using pseudonyms?  It only carries a certain level of entertainment and as predictable as a Hallmark movie ending.  Enjoy your toxicity cocktail while I enjoy my music on my system not to be judged by anyone but me.  Cheers to all, even the wankers.

I wish you a merry christmas and in the name of all a warm  welcome in audiogon ... 🎄

Thank you. Merry Christmas to you too!

Kuhn wrote a famous book about paradigms changes to demonstrate the opposite ...

Most people observing a disturbing fact troubling their calming perspective on phenomena will keep their paradigm , as someone loosing his keys may search for them at the feet of the lamp pole because the explanation must be there because light shine only there ..

is it not logical?

They are afraid not only to loose their keys now but to loose their only "reason" ...then they stick to the post lamp as a herd in the same spot  all together ...

«Fools had lost everything save reason »-- G. K. Chesterton

I wish you a merry christmas and in the name of all a warm  welcome in audiogon ... 🎄

When a reliably observable phenomenon can’t be explained within the boundaries of existing paradigm, what would a wise person do? Change the paradigm!

When a reliably observable phenomenon can't be explained within the boundaries of existing paradigm, what would a wise person do? Change the paradigm!

Cables in audio is one example. People do hear the differences. Yet the cables electrical parameters measure too close to each other for the cables to be distinguishable in the predominant flavor of the objectivist paradigms.

What is that paradigm? Measuring a cable for a short time with small audio range signals on a test bench, in isolation from the locations and systems where the differences were heard, is sufficient for establishing whether there is really a noticeable difference.

One of the ways of changing a parading is expansion of consideration scope. For instance, a cable at a location and in a system is not only an ideal isolated wire in a vacuum, but also a radio frequency (RF) antenna and a heat dissipation device.

As a radio frequency antenna, a cable can pick up RF transmissions, which active elements in connected audio devices may convert into audible signals. Not theoretical at all: I've observed this happening, multiple times.

As a heat dissipation device, a cable can cool off speaker crossover elements, speaker transducers coils, amplifier transistors, and so on. In practical speakers, thin copper wire may increase its resistance up to 40% due to heating.

So, a thin, poorly shielded cable with poorly fitting connectors may pick up RF energy to a significantly higher degree, while absorb and dissipate heat significantly less effectively than a more substantially made cable.

That's just one example. There are many others in audio. Sometimes communities of people get charmed by too simple of a model, easy to understand and apply, yet not providing enough of practically necessary subtlety.

The problem is tribal divisions itself programmed by external ideology...

Blaming a political tribes instead of seeing the problem at the larger scale is sleepwalking ...

I just discovered a scientist who was working with two Nobel prize and specialist of alzheimer and genetics who investigated in a new book how programmed we are ...

Nothing happening on earth is by mere chance ... There is no conspiration ., only stupidity trailing greed for power ,all is in the open: controlling dictatorship  alleged necessity  but in reality by interest and power convergence or democracy itself  , which democracy  almost disapear as a fact in all Anglo-saxon countries as in Germany and France and stay as  a no more working idea for the moment ...( half asleep brains claiming that i advocate speaking so for going to live in China instead of North america may stay mute)😁

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31nRwB7yh2g

The Indoctrinated Brain By Michael Nehls... Dont believe me check his credentials and listen his short interview ...

Our society has become this way for 2 main reasons imo. We have been trained by the media, both social and professional to personally fear and hate those that disagree with us. And, people have slowly lost core values in the name of progressive, moral relativism.  Combine the 2, add the internet, and boom, there you go. 

And enter nonoise. Like a moth to flame. Political leanings have nothing to do with views on moral relativism. The right simply acknowledges its existence.

It's all very simple actually...If any of ya had any conversations with your daddies and your grand daddies, it would become obvious how much worse than a piece of chicken the American workforce was treated back in the days. If one were to explore the culture of abuse that existed in the European continent (going further back) before the abused got on a boat and ran to America, it would become even more obvious how much the few in power luv to squeeze the rest endlessly to add more billions to their existing billions.

The rightwing has always had a strategic weapon...always blame it on the other race with a different 0.2mm thickness of skin pigment...it is always the other race's fault, never the good ol' boy (who looks like ya) who's the one squeezing you to death, whenever he's given the chance. And thus, the fools congregate and agree to removal of all the safety nets (hardfought and put in place by their progressive daddies and grand daddies)...And thus, the fools would recreate the hell from a 100 years ago in a heartbeat because their tribal selves fear the other race so much, whom they've also victimized endlessly/for most of their lives.

Well. It doesn’t surprise me that someone is so smart and has the knowledge of oz himself to think that they can come on a forum on another persons thread and tell them where to post their thoughts or opinions. Knowing damn well that wouldn’t do that to anyone in person. Just think about it you wouldn’t walk up to someone you don’t know or never met and tell the, what kind of car they should buy because you dint like the brand or the reason they bought it. Fellow audiophiles don’t engage or even bother with folks like that. It’s a rabbit hole. lol. 😂. @cleeds you hit the nail directly on the head.  You are 100% correct.  

+1 thanks for this very short on the point post...

John  Vervaeke explain all that in a stunning huge set of video courses called the "crisis of meaning" on youtube ...

waytoomuch discusses being on the losing end of a conversation. What conversation? People now talk at instead of with. Who wants to think when discussions now are see as causing trauma and not growth.

waytoomuch discusses being on the losing end of a conversation. What conversation? People now talk at instead of with.  Who wants to think when discussions now are see as causing trauma and not growth. 

Great post to read!

+1

Reading a lot of these posts. Yup. We have lost the civility. Guys talking recklessly to people on the regular. Knowing darn well most wouldn’t say it to their face. one of the responses a guy made to my post is an example of why they wouldn’t say it face to face. There is no a guy asks a question in person and you accuse him of trying to shill right after. Man I don’t have any respect for people that are brave with their thumb on line but wouldn’t dare in person. It’s usually the guys that respond the most or respond negatively automatically have the most finger courage. Lol 😂

Typically, most of us seek experiences from those that own the same or similar level equipment or that actually have experiences we can gain from. I could care less about the theoretical psycho babble that a guy who can’t hear the differences in cables wants to spit at me. I’m interested in people who tried it and what their experiences are. Not looking for a science project. Does the music sound better. Does the horn have more bite fullness and realism. Is the soundstage bigger. Is the noise floor quieter. Not interested in your science project. Does the music sound more real and better. All that other bs is for the birds.

The OP’s topic implies that we have “lost” something that was once there.  I’d like to revisit a discussion I introduced awhile back entitled: “Does Anyone Else Remember the Golden Age of Audio Insults and Product Degradation?”  This was a short walk down memory lane to the fiercely competitive world of “specialty audio” of the late 60’s and early 70’s where nuanced and respectful references to manufacturer’s brand names were bent, folded and mutilated (USPS terms) and replaced with “creative” terminologies designed to deliver maximum damage to the brand. I can also recall my visits to the local audio stores as a young audio enthusiast where one dealer was referred to by another as “Crazy Herb.” I was told by another that my Sansui speakers weren’t worth the postage it took to get them here from Japan.  And, how could I forget? “Yeah, that’s a good speaker.  As long as you don’t try to play music through it!!”  It seems each generation has a strong compulsion to own something.  Our generation was pretty good at slinging insults at our adversaries. 

But, I do believe we’ve reached another level of intensity where “light and airy” have been replaced by something so much more substantive and kinetic that their effects can be measured on the Richter Scale. How we got from “there” to “here” is complex. 

Back in the 60s, we were introduced to “ideologies.”  These were how we felt about certain things.  We may have disagreed with someone quite emphatically.  But at the end of the day, we still liked each other.   It’s been said that we reached an intellectual peak during this period.  Very smart people saying very smart things.  Statements that appealed to the goodness within us and challenged us to take ourselves, and our society to a higher place.  Logical arguments were presented by logical people.  And, challenged by logical people.  And there was some agreement to try to actually solve the problems of the day.

Fast forward to today and, yes, “ideology” is still an active part of our vocabularies. But, “ideology” has been demoted, and upgraded to “identity”.  While “ideology” may describe how we feel about something, “identity” is who we ARE.  So, it’s no longer fashionable to be “passionate” or “highly committed”.  Now we must be all in on a position. Deeply vested. 100% saturated.  Unshakable.  “IT” equals “US.”  No wiggle room, or variations in translation.  This all seems fine and good on the surface.  Until we look at the “other side.” It’s no longer just an “ideology” for them, either.  It is their “identity”, through and through.  Whatever “IT” is, we don’t like it.  And we don’t like them – because “they” ARE the “thing” we despise.  This is the textbook definition of “division” where we have little interest in recognizing those differences, extending courtesy, opening a dialog, respecting other viewpoints, finding common ground, or acknowledging the humanity sitting across from us.

Back in the 50’s, a gentleman introduced the concept of “The Theorem of Stable Datum.”  In essence: If you want to rock someone’s world, take those unshakable “truths” that they hold dear and destroy them.  When their world collapses beneath their feet, they literally don’t have a leg to stand on and can’t present much of an argument to defend themselves.  Right, or wrong, we’ve become quite good at this. The price of admission here is that we turned each other into punching bags, where an “opinion” becomes an “ideology” and “ideology” becomes “identity”, and someone’s value as a human being is invalidated because they don’t think like “us.”  So, you’re not challenging their ideas.  You’re challenging them.  And it gets very personal.  We don’t always show our best side under these circumstances.

I used to attend technical training sessions in different parts of the country.  Invariable, when group discussions started there was always a race to establish who is the SGR (Smartest Guy in the Room).  Then there were those who wanted to “hold class”.  “Hey, you guys.  Let’s gather over here, and I’ll tell you what you need to know about <subject>.” Its no coincidence that when discussions on forums become “lively” the “SGRs” come out to play.  They say “you can’t blame a compass for pointing north”.  And you can’t blame an SGR for trying to be … well … the SGR.

So, I would say lack of “civility” has been an integral part of the audiophile community since Day One.  It’s just gotten a lot more personal, which raises the stakes a lot higher. Being on the losing end of a conversation isn’t much fun these days.

No, g0))@^% it!!  We have not lost f#(&!^# respect and civility on the audio forums!

@tomic601 👍

😊 +1 tomic601

My own dog is interested by Schopenhauer philosophy of music and face me intensely when i point the right main point about it ... I said to everyone, facing them or not , what interest me , but people are not dogs.... I am so stupid or a too big ego or the two....Sorry...

At least i know myself....I speak only with friends anyway here or there ....

My goal is to be the person my Dog thinks I am….

My goal online is to say exactly what I would say to the person face-to-face.  Now I am a very direct person face to face.

Jerry

@audition__audio x 10. One should take their own advice.

Too many have done so and look where it's got us. Stick with audio so you can still look smart.

No one can pick on someone with a so peculiar humor and syntax and common sense...You are anything save a nut case... Myself i am nut  by profession now retired ...

I did not even tried to pick on you  because i could always only nod to your posts ...

If i could not one day, i will never  bother to act against a so good heart ...

😁

@phd ....in my experience, there will generally be someone who decides to pick on one....or any group in existence...🤷‍♂️

Validity of the ’picker’ to the ’pickee’ varies the response....at least, to moi’.

I feel like a nut mostly, so it keeps the ’pickers’ at bay...(Out to sea would be preferable, but results vary...) . ;

@phd ....in my experience, there will generally be someone who decides to pick on one....or any group in existence...🤷‍♂️

Validity of the 'picker' to the 'pickee' varies the response....at least, to moi'.

I feel like a nut mostly, so it keeps the 'pickers' at bay...(Out to sea would be preferable, but results vary...) . ;)

"Prog. moral relativism"....*L*  That only used to kick in for me back in the 'singularity days' of my wasted youth.....(i.e.: single, not married....)....

When she seemed to about to agree to what may occur....

Morals?  Naaahhh...

OK, I think someone is picking on us again. Let me end my post with this highly intelligent statement: "Sometimes you feel like a nut and sometimes you don't." 

And enter nonoise. Like a moth to flame. Political leanings have nothing to do with views on moral relativism. The right simply acknowledges its existence. Oh and this is not inviting debate because you will win the argument because you are correct. 

Interesting...

Thanks.

As for my methods of evaluation. Essentially it’s a combination of measuring and listening. Listening comparisons are done blind when possible.  The BACCH SP has a few features that work as amazing evaluation tools. Along with unique in ear measurements of frequency response, impulse response and cross talk cancelation, there is a feature that allows you to create a transfer filter that will simulate your system from in ear measurements. This allows for quick switching comparisons between system changes that can not be switched with any meaningful speed. It also allows for real time comparison nd between in room recordings, again from time n your ears directly with play back of that recording. The room changes will be evaluated using the BACCH system simulation. Any and all DSP will be evaluated with simple quick switching in and out of the signal path. All of which will be compared and contrasted to measurements taken through the BACCH and also using REW.

As for my methods of evaluation. Essentially it’s a combination of measuring and listening. Listening comparisons are done blind when possible.  The BACCH SP has a few features that work as amazing evaluation tools. Along with unique in ear measurements of frequency response, impulse response and cross talk cancelation, there is a feature that allows you to create a transfer filter that will simulate your system from in ear measurements. This allows for quick switching comparisons between system changes that can not be switched with any meaningful speed. It also allows for real time comparison nd between in room recordings, again from time n your ears directly with play back of that recording. The room changes will be evaluated using the BACCH system simulation. Any and all DSP will be evaluated with simple quick switching in and out of the signal path. All of which will be compared and contrasted to measurements taken through the BACCH and also using REW. 

I have nothing against anyone here. I do have a problem with anyone saying I say cables make a because I sell them. Look at my history of post. I have always said they make a difference. It’s the snide comments that I have a problem with. About sales etc. we let people demo most of the time before they buy anyway. If you wanna personally attack folks because they disagree with you. Keep it pushing. Not gonna hate you because I disagree with you. Not gonna mix my opinion on the issue about my opinion of you.There was a time on Audiogon where you didn’t hate the dude you disagreed with. I prefer those people on my threads. 

“I am sincere in my ask about how he intends to evaluate SOTA against his expectation. Especially given his stated methods and the multi variable changes. I am not questioning his assertion of a SOTA expectation. Frankly, i’ve heard quite modest systems surf the edges of SOTA on some key attributes of sound reproduction - including the sometimes elusive emotional engagement factor.”

Fair enough. It’s 3:37 AM here. I was up at 2:00 for a zoom meeting on L.A. time. I start work at 6:00 AM here so I’m going to try to catch a few Zzzzzs in between. My process of evaluation is very new and involved. I will outline it when I have some time and some sleep. If nothing else it will be different. 

@tomic601 *5's*  ...and a simple admission as yours can make my day....Rually...

...and thanks for that....gets your 3 rounds if/when we IRL in some bright-ish future, which is still In Prog....

Any 'philes in this neuvo-niche 'stance-city' seem to prefer anonymity...I'm still on fence whether or no they're frightened by me or I'm just not... Gud 'Nuff.

 🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️😒😖😣!?  'k....*l*  No Macs, no SOTA Schitt, no tubes, no $10K+ TT, or the cables to 'perhaps' match....

Just f'n raw deterministic devotion to a goal....Mine.

I'd still like another pair of ears that don't belong to me to comment on how far out I am or not....🤷‍♂️

The body will be found rather quickly, but all in a good cause....

Pardon....having watched Leave The World Behind (despite the Macs' & all the lp's on the wall:  Speakers? What speakers....) and the comment of a Tesla owner 'bout the car scenes....("...just like my wife's driving....") ("Well, you know the car will find it's way home..."),,,in the local ABC store....*figures*L*

Anyway....if I can still draw a *L* from the assembled, it may allow enough to sneak an aside in....and hopefully....make some sort of sense to some....

It's a life.... 

it’s pretty clear, i am both a measure and listen guy. I get enough exposure to have a sonic memory of a wide variety of systems, i would consider state of the art. My life, blessed as it is, includes  a generous heaping helping of live acoustic musical events in lovely reverberant spaces to have a reference. 

Note plural systems. I am not alone. Seek out community, peers, those you can learn from. Join an Audio Society.  Find a mentor ( RIP Roger, Thank you Richard ), find someone you can help …. 

I am sincere in my ask about how he intends to evaluate SOTA against his expectation. Especially given his stated methods and the multi variable changes. I am not questioning his assertion of a SOTA expectation. Frankly, i’ve heard quite modest systems surf the edges of SOTA on some key attributes of sound reproduction - including the sometimes elusive emotional engagement factor.

@asvjerry you made me laugh…. best to you…

*sigh*....late to the...'party', as usual.... :(

@waytoomuchstuff "Expiration date"? *wry L*
...that just means you leave in the oven or pan, and call it 'Cajun'....always nice 'n crunchy.....😏

@tomic601 ....I like 'double-blind' barkeeps....The drinks get stronger (🤞) as the night gets shorter..... ;)

I like SOTA, really....just can't afford to play in the rarified airs.  Always had and have to dodge about in the clouds...*tsk*  But, I trust my ears, bad as they are of late.  So I expend the $ on SOTA-like aids. *s*

I trust that y'all trust yours.....If not:

Save Yourself; Stabbing Westward.  Play loud, please....

(No 'mic drop'.....they're too expensive if they're worth a >DELETE<....)

Don't over Shink Thit.

Have a better weakend, J

@mahgister ,

Joyeux Noel, mon ami!

Merci pour vos aimables mots.

I think a hot mate this time of year. Blessings to you and your family this Christmas season and throughout the year! I extend this to all my fellow forum members. Even the ones with whom I disagree! 😄

I am not surprized by your reaction my friend... 😊

I know personaly that you are a generous and great soul... And they generally cannot imagine the rest of us as we are ...Fearful and revengeful because easily manipulated.. then there is truth in the two posts, yours and the friend to whom you replied ...

Merry christmas to you and enjoy the mate cold or hot and stay healthy ...

I neither fear nor hate anyone who disagrees with me, and I’m sure that goes for the vast majority. See, I completely disagree with you, yet I hold zero animosity towards you. I do however find your statement quite odd.

Our society has become this way for 2 main reasons imo. We have been trained by the media, both social and professional to personally fear and hate those that disagree with us. 

I neither fear nor hate anyone who disagrees with me, and I'm sure that goes for the vast majority. See, I completely disagree with you, yet I hold zero animosity towards you. I do however find your statement quite odd.

@pcrhkr Wow, mention of Utah speakers.  My first speaker build used Utah 12 inch full range drivers with a whizzer cone, no less, in a Karlson enclosure.  Wore out a  Dual turntable.  Since then built and modified numerous speakers amplifiers, pre-amps, and other electronics.  For several years spent too much time in HiFi stores buying and trading equipment seeking out the latest with best specs.  Many great learning experiences along the way leading to equipment that just sounds good to me, regardless of specs or price.  No claim to be an expert, but will share with others willing to learn in search of their happy place.  

Our society has become this way for 2 main reasons imo. We have been trained by the media, both social and professional to personally fear and hate those that disagree with us. And, people have slowly lost core values in the name of progressive, moral relativism.  Combine the 2, add the internet, and boom, there you go.