Have we lost civility and respect on Audio forums?

@wharfy i remember when that happened to you.  My daughter punched a hole in the cone of my Gato FM6 speaker when she was 2.  lol 😂 I lost my mind that day.  We had the biggest kid adult daddy daughter argument in the world that day. She won’t even go near my set up anymore. lol. But I agree I post a thread like this. I get people calling me a shill. Saying I’m hurting in sales etc.  look we let you try before you buy at INFIGO cables.  It’s crazy some of the disrespectful stuff people say. Like we are 5 year olds who can tell a difference in how smthg sounds. Lol 😂 Folks will take a thread and turn it into world war 6 if you let them. 

@cleeds you make a lot of valid points. 

@wharfy @jacobsdad2000 im done. I tried to get away from him but he has an apple AirTag on my posts. I’m done. I wonder what he has in his system or if he even has a system. 

@everyone I have had to catch myself.  People challenge your integrity. People speaking disrespectful to you. I come from an era where I was raised by grandparents and you just didn’t say certain things to a woman or a man.  The internet has made it easy to be thumb thugging out here.  Because you never see people in person. But I just think in Audio we got to be better.  I’m going to enjoy this passion of ours.  Not argue all day. 

There is also in some cases where with some people you have to accept that they will always want to so called win an argument. But when you have made an investment in equipment with low noise floors that have been tested to a -140 db. When your equipment is designed and has been measured to reduce distortion. When you can run a program that reads and measures  the distortion  in the second and third harmonics in each Dac chip and you have a program that can make adjustments in real time to limit the distortion. Then you put it in a good listening environment.   Then you matched it up with the right cables and a great source and source materials there are those that don’t have that kind of system and have an emotional investment in their own position will never accept your findings.  We as audiophiles have to accept that they don’t hear a difference because they just don’t have your system. We can accept that they can’t hear in theirs. Their system is not built to hear the differences possibly. But one someone tells me that I can’t hear a difference in a my system that they have never heard in person I pretty much have 0 interest in their opinion. I didn’t want to brag about what I have or what my equipment has been measured to do. Because no matter what I say some people will get offended. In my system there is a scientific and audible difference in what I’m hearing because of the highly resolving systems with cables that match that throughout.  When I didn’t have the experience in the this hobby I used to feel the other way but when I grew in this hobby so did my ability to purchase better equipment along with the knowledge to put things together. In closing one thing that we as Audiophiles must accept. If you like it I love it for YOU! You can be right in hearing or not hearing it in your system but you shouldn’t let someone who hasn’t heard your system and doesn’t know the specs or design of your equipment tell you anything that they deem as fact. They might not have enough experience in listening and picking out differences. They are a random person on the internet that you know nothing about. It’s ok to peacefully disagree and move on. ENJOY THE MUSIC EVERYONE! ENJOY YOUR SYSTEM 

I think the inability to accept that one might be wrong is the bigger problem. My experience is that a lot of systems may not be good enough or properly matched well enough to hear differences.  If your equipment or set up isn’t transparent or have a low enough noise floor or isn’t properly matched up in a decent living environment you are not going to hear a difference. Some people will not accept that they don’t have experiences with equipment that can do those things. Then that person will apply all of their personal findings to people that do. Unfortunately one’s fact may not be another’s fact is the bigger problem. The inability to accept that one might be wrong can be highly detrimental in having discussions.  I’m willing to accept one might not hear a difference on their system but the arrogance to tell someone else that they can’t hear a difference in their system is special.  Then to consistently and repeatedly insist on them being wrong is where things cross a line. We have to be honest when discussing things without being disrespectful. The minute I hear someone say they can’t hear a difference. Personally I think that their system is not resolving enough or they are just hell bent on not accepting things make a difference.  Either way I just don’t trust their opinion and if they don’t trust mines I’m fine with it. I’m not going to respond 20 30 times. It’s called agree to disagree.  It’s called disagreeing without hating or dissing the person you disagree. If we are being honest. If you don’t hear differences your set up isn’t the kind I probably would prefer.   That’s not being mean that’s being honest without hating or being disrespectful 

@thecarpathian you are 100% correct that’s why I responded in length in the above posts. I get what you are saying 100%. You hit the nail on the head. For example you can have a great sounding system without the expense of having an expensive system. But good, better or great is partially in opinion and some equipment is just built better or differently because of design and materials to produce a more ear pleasing sound or sound that is more resolving, detailed and transparent simply based on design. Some seek that. I do. Others don’t I accept that. Doesn’t make my position a fact or them wrong. @2psyop there are just folks that will want to be right no matter what. I try to stay away from them. That type typically doesn’t learn or evolve. We have to accept in each forum there will be a couple of folks that will be like that no matter what. I’m still learning in this hobby after 20 years and I accept there are those who know more than me and it doesn’t bother me. I don’t have to insist that I’m right.  

@mahler123 you know what.  You are right my friend. I agree I will not cap them if it creates a calmer discussion and you are 100% right it does. 

@dr-boop great response. 

@scott22 the best coaches and teammates would pull the best and most useable traits out of the players to help the team win. You are so right. 

@jayctoy well said my friend. Right on point 

@waytoomuchstuff hot chocolate extra sugar !  Lol 

@waytoomuchstuff yes lol. A long time ago I went to listen to a well put together super system. I came home and looked at my set up like it betrayed me.  It looked back at me and said WHATEVER! YOU BETTER TURN ME ON AND SIT DOWN SOMEWHERE! 

@uberk exactly.  Man I would rather not deal with the cable naysayers and equipment don’t make a difference crowd.  I literally upgraded my power supply to my streamer and the difference is a big jump.  I would rather talk about that without people jumping in with no experience babbling on about nothing saying I can’t hear a difference when I’m sitting in my house with my system hearing a difference.  

@uberk as you see someone trying to tell us what forums that cater to us. Because we don’t agree with them.  Jeez 

@cleeds thanks for the suggestion.  I wasn’t referring to you in my response.  I don’t mind suggestions like yours. I was referring to @scottwheel. I see that no matter what gonnna pop up to argue a point that most clearly don’t accept. 

@uberk I agree 100% with your assessment.  If you have not owned the really good stuff you haven’t had the experience to truly comment on what smthg is or isn’t doing. My Dac is one of the most expensive out there our Method 4.  I bought it because I know the science behind it. Our owner work with Ressonessence labs the sister company to Ess Sabre Labs. He has insight on the 9038 Dac chipset that almost no one has.  My Dac is built with multiple power supplies and special mini  heat sinks separating each Dac chip to limit any heat thereby limiting distortion. When you have a product like this it’s going to cost you and I was ok with getting it because of what it does in my high end system. Some of these guys commenting don’t own anything at those levels so they just want to put it down.  Then they wanna act like the smartest guy in the room by judging a singing contest before the singer even opens their mouths.  One particular person responds repeatedly. He probably doesn’t in or have any experience with higher end gear. Then when you try to tell him that it devolves into we are being emotional ?  What sense does that make ? 

@everyone I stay on this forum because I don’t want the naysayers to mislead those who truly seek to improve their systems. 
 

@ellajeanelle i agree.  No one wants to come argue all day.  Make your point once or twice.  Some people have taken the joy out of the forum and the hobby. Trying to ram inexperienced comments down your throat. 

@linnvolk yes I agree.  Some people will never admit that they could be wrong.  But to never hear smthg and tell that person who owns it that they are not hearing differences. Makes no sense. 

@allenf1963 yup. I agree. People can be deebo behind these keyboards. Because you are right you got to have a motive or be a shill. Put your earbuds in and accept that you might be wrong. Nastiness on steroids 

Dealer, audiophile, owner or hobbyist. Just treat people with respect no matter what. Show civility no matter what. 

@allenf1963 exactly. People think they can categorize and that’s a reason they can’t talk crazy to you?  Nope just respect people. I been in Audiogon for 15 years only been selling gear for 4.  Nope just respect people like you would have to in person. 

@scottwheel not trying to be nasty towards you but every thread I put up you come on and respond to like 10-15 times and yes you have a right to do that if you like. Not trying to be mean but in my opinion like you gave yours maybe you should go to another thread or platform. We all have accounts here and threads we start. Everyone has a right to participate but I created another thread because of your excessive commenting. I can’t tell you how many times to comment but I will tell you I would never take any audio or life advice from you. Your audio comments in my opinion come from a place where a listener has not actually experienced the same type or similar gear I have access to. That would lead to inexperience with that type of gear which someone like me would never take your advice. The other part of this that you literally take posters comments break them down and post continually annoying responses because they call you out on your comments. Sir you are the type of guy folks like me are speaking of. 1. They think they know it all. 2. They have to get the last word. 3. They typically don’t own higher end or resolving gear. 4. They want to always be the smartest guy in the room but never show you what the made on the test. 5 unable to even take the test or even the class. 6. They wanna tell you what you are not hearing while you are listening to your gear with your ears while they type with their fingers. 7. They give you a scientific analogy saying your ears are tricking you. 8. They will eventually get mad call you a not so nice word then blame you. 9. The don’t like to learn any new ways the just wanna to teach you their flawed way. 10. They run off all the positive vibes and mature legitimate discussion. Now go ahead and repost this and break it down with your responses as usual. I wish you wouldn’t comment on my threads but you will show us you are the smartest guy in the room on repeat. Lol. 😂. 

@uberk your response hit the nail on the head for me. I tried to not be specific in the gear that I own but had to comment on it to show the differences in the level of gear that one has to be able have experience with to be able to hear differences. Typically but not all of the time when you buy the expensive gear you are paying for technology, build quality, innovation and performance. Once you experience that performance then it changes what is possible in listening to your system. Your gear then becomes more sensitive to cabling, tweaks, power supplies, amplification and even sources and source materials. If your gear doesn’t have a low noice floor then you will not be able to hear your system in its fullness. If the power supply is weak then it will not project into the listening environment with the same level of potency. Even in low level listening. There are just things that you don’t know when you don’t have experience with that type of gear. That’s not being uppity. That’s just the truth. I remember when I had the battery powered veloce gear in my system and it had 0 noise floor because it was battery powered. There was cleanness and purity of sound that led me to seek out gear with the ability to have no background noise so I can hear more of the music soundstage etc. That’s how I ended up getting what I have now eventually. That first experience in the higher end changed my perception on what was possible. If you don’t go through those kind of experiences in this hobby like most of us have I’m probably not going to put a lot of stock in your opinion. I can’t tell that the continuous commenter hasn’t so I wouldn’t take his advice. Also, when you try to nicely tell someone this. Then they get offended and try to get back at you because you told them where they probably are in their journey and because you are further along in yours they even become offended about that. In my experience the better matched and typically more expensive systems if they are matched correctly allow you to truly hear music in all its glory if you have the right cabling, tweaks, amplification and power supplies etc. You have to have reallly well engineered equipment that limits distortion and noise etc. it doesn’t always have to be expensive but in most of the higher end gear that is the baseline.

@uberk @cleeds I definitely see your point about audioaoficiando. I was on Audiogon for years and then this one guy started commenting excessive about cabling and .999999999999 purified copper etc.  come to find out he didn’t have a decent system and he was only commenting as an annoyance. Part of the reason I left Audiogon was the nastiness. The fakeness at times. In addition to that people commenting that just don’t have the understanding that we have. IF YOU AINT GOT THE GEAR YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE THE EAR! If your baseline of what is possible isn’t at a certain level you just don’t  know what’s musically possible in a system.  That’s not the case all the time I would say most of the time.  All of this comes with experience. The ability to learn. The ability to not be BUTTHURT because someone probably knows more than you. The ability to not be the smartest guy in the room and learn from those who have more experience or even different experiences than you have.  I learned  from guys earlier that had way more experience than I had and I’m glad I listened instead of running my mouth. 

@scottwheel no thank you. Wish you all the best doing things your way take care. Most of the folks who own the type of equipment typically have already worked on their rooms? That’s not some big audio secret. Either have worked in their rooms or get equipment that work best in their environments.  Most of us are past that point. 

@deep_333 man look I’m not butthurt or anything.  Look we all have our opinions.  We all  start our threads. I’m just like anyone else. If you say smthg that I disagree with we can debate it.  It’s not  holier than thou or anything else. You have said how you feel and now I’m saying how I feel. Just being direct. I’m not hurting for sales.  I do this as an additional job. I have ran my other business for the last 22 years and I’m successful at it.  A lot of us are just in different places.  You and I may not think alike and I’m ok with that.  I don’t know you and you don’t know me. I work with a great guy who has started a great company so I actually hold back some of what I would normally say. I left Audiogon a while ago because of the kind of comment you just made about reexamining myself etc.  The internet allows us to say some things to folks that will never meet and you are doing that now. But anyway I wish you all the best.  I’m no victim or playing to be one. I enjoy this hobby. I been blessed in it. I will continue to do it the way I see it. I’m not going to let you call me a shill.  I’m not going to let you say I’m just saying stuff because I recently became a dealer. I been on Audiogon for 15 plus years. Anyway I’m not going to bother trying to convince you or anyone else here. I’m only addressing you because you made some comments about me.  Anyway. No issue with you at all. I hope you enjoy the system you have and this hobby. Some people get mad because I will never agree that cables don’t matter. I think they do. I know they do.   I think build quality matters in equipment matters. I think innovation matters.  I think at certain price points you get really great equipment if you do your own research. But anyway. I have no issue with you. I wish you the best. Take care

@jacobsdad2000 man I appreciate your comment and your understanding. Look we all have experience in this hobby. I’m not going to let a guy tell me cable’s don’t affect the sound and not take him to task on it. I know because I have spent the previous 15 years trying any cable I could get my hand on. I have listened to systems where the cable turned one system from blah to almost great. That’s how I got into doing what I’m doing the owner of the company literally saw me replace the cables and open up the sound of a system. In addition to that being a dealer is new to me. I am used to people being nasty at times. I come from a background where I don’t take flak from anyone. But to say I’m hurting in sales is ridiculous. I’m pretty self assured about my audio options and opinions because I have put the work in. We literally allow people to demo the cables before they buy them sometimes. I want people to be happy with the purchase and I want them to enjoy the music. I’m a hobbyist first before anything I want people to be happy. Man I have met a lot of great guys on here. I’m going to stay away from the negativity. Thanks for your post and I look forward to conversing with you in the future.

@pindac great post. A long post but a great one.  It’s well thought out. You made a lot of great points. 

@wturkey @rok2id i agree civility was lost a long time ago.  I actually quit posting on Audiogon about 4 years ago.  I left because it became less about sound and more about personal insults. Challenging people’s intelligence and integrity.  Stuff that people do on the internet but wouldn’t probably do face to face.  It kills the conversation where people can learn and or enjoy. 

@scottwheel it’s not a respect thing. Look I just would never listen to you on this issue. There is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. I hear a difference. You don’t. You don’t  have to invest your time and money in cables.  I will. It’s ok and nothing wrong with that. There are just a lot of folks here that will never agree with you on this. That’s ok they don’t have to. If you are happy with generic cables. More power to you.  But I’m not going to trust someone in the internet who has not heard the difference it makes in my system that I listen to everyday. I don’t know your system, amps, speakers or level of equipment.  Just wouldn’t make any sense.  But anyway. Last response to you because you will go on and on and on. Take care. 

@pindac precisely, it’s like talking to someone you don’t know. Commenting on something you haven’t heard in an environment you never been in then saying there is not a difference. It’s like a blind person telling you that you  look ugly and they have never saw your face. Then being sensitive about their blindness to the point that they will double or triple down on that position because they are insecure about that blindness. Then to top that all off call you a shill and that you only saying it to sell someone smthg. Despite not ever talking or knowing that person in your entire life. It says something when their first interaction is negative and repeatedly argumentative about something that you own and are hearing and smthg that they have never heard. 

@scottwheel you can hear my system through this forum post? Ok I get it ! 

@scottwheel good luck with your opinion. Take care. You go on and on and on. Honestly, I wish you would just look past any thread I post. There are those here that want to have real discussions and not have your opinion pushed down their throats. Take care. Every thread I start here you go!  lol.  😂 

@thecarpathian 😂 man. He will not. He already posting his next response he doesn’t have time to edit. 

@pindac im not hoping to bother reading his responses anymore. I’m done

@maghister. I agree. Look we have opinions and I respect every one’s right to have an opinion but we have all different systems and to tell someone it’s not possible when the are listening to their own system while some are typing their scientific theories is beyond me. 

@nonoise exactly.  

@wharfy you are so right. I had to order another driver. They were special made. 800$. I had to spend 200 getting it repaired. But it is as good as new. Some of them are angry. Mad to be mad. Mad cause you spent a lot on your system. Mad because we won’t let them tell us how stupid we are for doing it! Just mad. Just nasty. Wouldn’t dare talk this tough in person. Lol.  Funny. 

@cdc I’m about to go back to CAPS. THE CAPS SCARED  AWAY THE TROLLS ! 

@puptent look. I been doing this 20 years. Because I sell cables people think in trying to shill. Most of us are smart enough to know what we are hearing in our audio systems by this point.  We know when it sounds better and when it doesn’t. Not bragging but I have some seriously high engineered equipment in my system that I bought after months and years of research. Then one guy comes on and expects me and others to accept his way and only his way then personally attacks me, my integrity and those who agree with me. WHAT A JOKE! 

@maghister he can’t trust his ears he does not want us to trust  ours.

Well he keeps trying to give the wrong answer to the question we already have the right answer to!  Jeez!

Some are not interested in hearing the music or a difference. Some just want to be right.  WE ARE NOT THE SAME. 

I have nothing against anyone here. I do have a problem with anyone saying I say cables make a because I sell them. Look at my history of post. I have always said they make a difference. It’s the snide comments that I have a problem with. About sales etc. we let people demo most of the time before they buy anyway. If you wanna personally attack folks because they disagree with you. Keep it pushing. Not gonna hate you because I disagree with you. Not gonna mix my opinion on the issue about my opinion of you.There was a time on Audiogon where you didn’t hate the dude you disagreed with. I prefer those people on my threads. 

Reading a lot of these posts. Yup. We have lost the civility. Guys talking recklessly to people on the regular. Knowing darn well most wouldn’t say it to their face. one of the responses a guy made to my post is an example of why they wouldn’t say it face to face. There is no a guy asks a question in person and you accuse him of trying to shill right after. Man I don’t have any respect for people that are brave with their thumb on line but wouldn’t dare in person. It’s usually the guys that respond the most or respond negatively automatically have the most finger courage. Lol 😂

Typically, most of us seek experiences from those that own the same or similar level equipment or that actually have experiences we can gain from. I could care less about the theoretical psycho babble that a guy who can’t hear the differences in cables wants to spit at me. I’m interested in people who tried it and what their experiences are. Not looking for a science project. Does the music sound better. Does the horn have more bite fullness and realism. Is the soundstage bigger. Is the noise floor quieter. Not interested in your science project. Does the music sound more real and better. All that other bs is for the birds.

Well. It doesn’t surprise me that someone is so smart and has the knowledge of oz himself to think that they can come on a forum on another persons thread and tell them where to post their thoughts or opinions. Knowing damn well that wouldn’t do that to anyone in person. Just think about it you wouldn’t walk up to someone you don’t know or never met and tell the, what kind of car they should buy because you dint like the brand or the reason they bought it. Fellow audiophiles don’t engage or even bother with folks like that. It’s a rabbit hole. lol. 😂. @cleeds you hit the nail directly on the head.  You are 100% correct.  

@koh_i_noor i left the platform because of the nastiness because I represent a brand i don’t wanna go off cause it hurts our Infigo brands so i watch it now.  People who don’t know you talk super reckless. They say stuff that’s disrespectful. Like i work hard for our owner at Infigo because I see his vision and he makes one hell of a product.  But I’m not hungry for sales.  I want him to succeed because he is a great inventor designer. I work with him because the level of equipment he makes is unlike anything I’ve ever seen.  But because I’m saying this people are nasty and accuse me of shilling and they don’t know me. We literally allow free demos but folks wanna just be nasty.  So the Audiogon platform has really turned me off.