Yes, definitely
Do you consider cables to be a "component" of your system?
Meaning, do you think that cabling (AC/InterConnects/SpeakerWire) should be considered a component that is integral to your system?
I have probably as much money in cabling and fuses as I do in most of my components (if not more).
Please, please, PLEASE don't tell me that cables don't make a difference. I disagree and there's nothing you can say or do that will change my mind, so save it for another thread, please.
I just wondered if you had to recommend a set up to someone (who wanted a nice stereo), would you consider cabling to be essential in your build price and your recommendations? If so, would you consider the cost of the cables to be on par with the cost of a component?
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Kind of presumptuous, I never said cables of any kind don’t make a difference, I do have issues with some of the ideology and sales promotion. Rest assured my equipment has been refurbished and upgraded internally and to any possible higher standards available. Having said that many accomplished professionals are of the opinion that some of these components exceed The values of many amplifiers currently available. Your opinion ‘Transparent or refined’ is just that..your opinion ! And I might add based on valueless speculation as you’ve not had the pleasure of listening to this system. There has been effort, research, and money put into this project and you can certainly hear it. And finally if you have an XKE V12 I am in awe, aside from that they generally ride like a wheel barrel, that’s based on my opinion Lol. Cheers |
I can appreciate that you don’t think that AC cords (or any cables) can make a difference in a system and are just shiny audio jewelry. I am a big fan of older Yamaha amplifiers myself. The models you listed are PA amps from the 80’s. Hardwired AC cabling and those (unfortunately) little speaker connection screws that Yamaha always seemed so hell-bent on using. They have cool VU meters. In terms of raw power, vintage Yamaha’s are beasts. But they’re certainly not what I would call refined (or transparent) by any stretch. And unless you have kept up on maintenance (being that they are from the 80’s), I’d be willing to bet they are so far out of original spec that they’re probably not worth refurbishing back to manufacturer’s original values. Which is the problem with vintage gear. So, I’m not surprised that you can’t hear a difference. It’s impossible for you to try a different AC cable. Unless you’ve modified the amplifier’s speaker terminals, it’s pretty much impossible for you to try any after-market pre-terminated high end speaker cables as well. I’m glad you enjoy your system, but your continual denial and arguing that cables don’t make a difference for anyone else in the world doesn’t hold a whole lot of weight. I would be willing to bet that if you popped in a newer, higher-end amp/preamp, etc...you would not only be able to tell a difference, you would be floored by the differences. But until then, you do you, but please stop telling the rest of us what we can and can’t hear. FWIW, I'm a Jaguar kind of guy. 😎
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You're certainly interested in good sound & are enjoying your system, cool... That is what it's about. FWIW I wouldn't cut any of your PC's either. It may however be worthwhile to check out some used "Colorado" IC's from Audioquest, or even "Golden Presence" IC's from Cardas, just to see if you like the sound quality these bring to your system. |
For many reasons…I’ve vintage, and have been selectively buying. Now own Pristine second owner last model run Infinity IRS Beta speakers. Yamaha power PC5002m mid’s / high panels, PC4002M woofer towers. 4 x infinitesimal 0.2’s, Yamaha Pc2002m power. Well treated 22x36x8 room electrically well engineered. Many hours fine tuning…it’s a hum and noise free absolutely Clean sounding system. I’m not naïve there is better out there but man would you have to pay to duplicate the quality of sound here. Cutting off the hardwired hefty Commercial PC’s would be horrible and why ? Cheers
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Yeah, that must be it because if you think the crappy black PCs that come with most equipment sound good then the rest of us surely must be wrong and kidding ourselves if we hear improvements with more expensive cables. Silly us. |
"I drive Audis very expensive Audis" You have good taste in automobiles! Not sure what your audio system consists of but... Have you ever tried aftermarket cables? If not, you should give it a try. Don't cheap out on them though... Let us know what audio equipment you're using & we can give you some recommendations. All the best to you |
Maybe you can then explain why none — NONE — of the electronics manufacturers use the cables that that come with their equipment at audio shows where they obviously want their equipment to sound its best? They ALL use pricey aftermarket PCs. Hmmm. Clearly must be a conspiracy of some sort. |
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That is C… Manufactures ship their equipment with a AC supply cables that complement their equipment period ! They do not assume people are going to an aftermarket BS company to improve the quality of their equipment. I’ve never seen that written in sales brochures or have I heard it brought up in conversations with quality equipment sales people. If there was any truth to this BS cable stuff why would manufactures not spend and charge extra for an earth shattering better cable Full well assuming A customer has the money and will be purchasing it from some aftermarket schmuck. That does not make any sense, sort of pay me to hear the best of my equipment or go pay somebody else because they’re gonna make it better no logic in that not to mention no science to it either. The only reason a good quality manufacturer isn’t involved with this whole cable BS thing is just that there’s no science behind it no consistent reality so essentially it is BS. And finally The cord supplied with an individual component has absolutely no possible way of affecting Other components in the system including their individual sound quality or characteristics. 98 % placebo !! |
On the contrary, I have a hard time thinking of a manufacturer that sells their products with decent power cables.
They don’t, but you’re assuming the engineers chose the power cable shipped with the product because they thought it was the best. If electronics manufacturers shipped their products with better cables it’d increase the price significantly and there’s no guarantee that providing a better power cord would work well in the context of the customer’s system and their personal tastes. Manufacturers of good equipment know that cables are a crapshoot given those significant variables and that their customers either already have or will choose their own aftermarket PCs so providing better cords and increasing the price of their product accordingly makes no sense. |
Wow..so what your saying is keep things tight, clean, and appropriate size. Separate power from interconnects, speaker wires, that sort of thing. All of which should be common knowledge and applied. A decent piece of equipment will have decent cables end of story. I know of no manufacture of quality product that sells that product with junk power cables. Having said that why would anybody assume they know more than engineers of said product and swap out parts with bogus Parts at ridiculous prices to support a BS industry. People will pay for what ever turns there crank so be it, let’s dive into more important threads 🧵 Perhaps weather black equipment sounds better than silver, end The 40 year war…Lol Cheers |
@coralkong Absolutely, interconnect cables are playing very important in my system! My preference for signal cables lies on well known for reliability/noise connector brands (professional series Neutrik etc), impedance, flexibility, and cable shielding effectiveness (measured in dB, good cable EM shielding should be >80dB). Established connector manufacturers have better contact quality with higher contact pressure, and use proper plating technology. Power cord has to be a short as possible, and to use proper connectors at the ends. In some cases I use power cords combined with EM filter, and with option to disconnect ground to avoid ground loops. In many cases claims of improvements after replacing cable are real for SQ, but are result of mechanical contact cleaning from oxides and dirt, during plug/unplug procedure. In that case blind test, where parts A-B compared multiple times, does not show reliable results. Cables need to be managed by grouping into power/speaker/signal bunch, to reduce background noise. |
Edelbrock and electronic fuel injection…When Jesus was young Carburetters were in. It’s funny you should say listening isn’t necessary, does that equate to there is no difference ? Perhaps myth like Jack’s Magic beans and Bilbo‘s ring ? I will say one should stay away from carburetter cleaner and Audio BS ! |
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For anybody expressing an interest in what might occur in their set up if they look into and follow up with making a few exchanges of Cables between devices. It does not take a set off Golden Ears, to determine if the time spent carrying out an investigation has proven to be beneficial. Taking the time to try out different experiences and getting a listen to the system with a slight rearrangement is a time well spent. |
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A new religion appeared in First World countries in the late Seventies. With the arrival of Monster and Discwashrr Gold Ens the Great Cable Race was off and running! Unlike horse racing there is NO measurement system that proves cable A is superior or different from cable B. The belief in sonic differences among cables is ENTIRELY faith-based, just as religion is! And just as devisive! The first person to invent a measuring system for these differences that the "golden ears" crowd claims to hear will qualify for the Nobel Prize in Physics! |
Of course, they are components, and very important ones. Speaking of preamp and amp, I would first upgrade power cords and then the interconnects in between them. In other words, first improve power supplies and then do the link. If buying used, 1m pair interconnects or 1.5m power cord should not usually cost more than $1k each, unless your set-up is quite extreme. Examples are Wywires Diamond and older Purist Audio Dominus. Yeah, I got both. |
No, but I sort of agree with the analogy made by @soix
Yes, but only to the extent that cables are needed to operate the system. However, not unlike equipment stands/racks, footers, room treatments, and other auxiliaries, cables can be changed/upgraded over time and very few here have purchased their "final" cables at the time they originally assembled their system components.
Not even close. I have found that different cables sound differently in my system but the impact cables have on the overall sound of the system IMO is much less than the impact of the individual components or speakers. As with @norco74 , I have made my own cables for years from both manufactured bulk cables and from scratch, but I have also purchased manufactured cables at mid to upper price ranges by companies like Cardas, PAD, Isoclean, Furutech, HT, AZ, TWL, and more. Some, but not all, of the cables I have made myself have equaled those higher priced manufactured cables I have owned, and in some cases they bettered them (i.e., one of the interconnects I constructed is currently used by a well-regarded equipment manufacturer in their personal system). My point is that cables do sound different but IMO spending a lot of money on cables is not a prerequisite or a guarantee of good sound. |
Yes - but the least bang for buck. By a long way. Since I DIY with electrostatics, I can use nichrome wire for speaker cables instead of a tuning resistor - so effectively no speaker cables at all. For line level, Canare Starquad microphone cable. The cross linked polyester insulation has very low dielectric absorption, which is quite a lot of what we listen to. Their shielding is also the best. |
@coralkong - YES! - cables are components and very important ones at that The world of cables has changed tremendously in the past couple of years. Zavfino
In-Akustik and Hijiri
Proucts from In-Akustik and Hijiri will elevate high-res systems to excellent levels of performance There are other brands, but simply search these forums for member feedback on all three of these brands and you will find very positive feedback Don’t be fooled into thinking cables have to COST a certain percentage of overall system budget
Regards Steve |
On a somewhat related note. I purchased a ong run of an interconnect, used, and had them re-termed at the factory (Kimber in this case) to yield multiple pairs of shorter interconnects that I can use at a bargain price. The other method I've used is to buy the "older" generation of an interconnect just after the "New and improved" models are introduced. I've saved 40% on new cables like this. These tactics help take some of the sticker shock out of high end cables.
Cheers
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I purchased a siltech cable burn in box approximately a year ago. I personally believe that has been the best purchase in hi-fi I have made as far as sound quality goes. Scary how much better a cable sounds after it has been left on the machine for a week. Even cable that I have run for twenty years and played the system every third night of at least two hours. After that many years and that much time by common wisdom they should have been burned in but large gains after a week on the siltech machine. Had audio connection build me a lowercord burn in machine ot arrived a week ago. I have a power cord on it now I will see what happens with it as well.
At times I wonder when people say cables don't make a difference if they are running lamp cord for speaker wire and the free interconnects that came with a cheap Sony cd player back in the day. If so it is quite easy to see the difference in cables when a person moves up to entry level hi-fi cables. The first couple of hundred dollars makes a huge difference. A person doesn't want to go to far up the wire line with more basic equipment higher the wire the more reveling it is of the sound of the component. Many times a reference grade wire makes a basic component sound bad but what you are hearing is the component not the wire. That is the skill in choosing a hi-fi system is understanding what is sounding wrong and figuring out what to replace. The other skill needed is to be able to eat your own personal mistakes and make changes just because you paid money for something doesn't mean that it is good or that it is a match for your system. Taking your loss and moving on is hard for many audio files..
Regards |
I consider them as "accessories" . I have been making my own AC cords and interconnects for years now with great results. There’s some good DIY recipes out there that will cost you a fraction of a commercial available cable but still, it is not as cheap as one would think. I have also tried a few cables from famous cable brands with mixed results. Cables can of course help to bring out the best of your components but they will never be a better solution than a component replacement. One lesson learned is to let a new cable burn-in long enough (>100 h or more) so you can really judge its effect on your system. What your hear on day 1 of using a new cable in your system will be very different after a few hundreds hours of usage. As someone pointed out, ROI on cables is a diminishing affair so there’s an equilibrium one must think about before spending too much on this adventure. |
Definitely, I’ve had cables that change the whole listening experience for better or worse. Lower gauge cables seem to make a big impact. Going from 14/15 gauge down to something half that will provide so much more depth. A low gauge power cord, same thing. One thing that is supposed to really change things is doubling interconnects with a y splitter. I’m not sure why this is considered so effective other than halving the resistance, but the “Schroeder Method” as they call it has been a game changer for some. |
In the real world, “component” simply means a part, any part, of a larger whole. In audiophile vernacular, the word component has come to be more commonly used when referring to a box. When someone here asks if cables are components, they appear to be asking whether or not they are as important to the sound as a box or perhaps as a speaker. The answer varies by person. I think the 10% rule presumes the system buyer has a limited budget and that they should spend 90% of their budget on speakers and boxes. Up to you how you spend your money. For myself, I have found that once you have a system you like, spending a much higher percentage on cable can bring very worthwhile gains. |
@soix That was an excellent analogy I concur. |
@soix Very well summarized. Very true. |
I view cables like tires on a car. The better the car the more the tires matter, and if you put crappy tires on a good car they undermine a lot of the strengths you bought the car for in the first place. And just as with cables in the context of an overall audio system, the characteristics of the tires need to work well with the suspension/handling characteristics of the car or performance is compromised. This is how I explain cables to my non-audiophile friends and they seem to get it even if they’re still a little skeptical. |
