I think it does--Thanks..
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I appreciate your responses-- 1. I don’t even know if you have a system I have a single Bluetooth speaker running through my phone. 2. It’s clear you haven’t tried any power cords other than stock if you have a system at all You got me. 3. Science has been wrong on many occasions but that’s not the point Agree. 4. How do you measure details, clarity, precision of imaging, soundstage depth, height and width with an oscilloscope…please enlighten me what measurements define these aspects of listening experience? Can human hearing and interpretation of what we hear by our brains when it comes to tone, what we define as perfect sound, be measured by oscilloscope? I absolutely agree. Two different power amplifiers with the same measurements will sound different when compared. Same goes for DACs. But when you measure at the output they measure the same. I absolutely agree. I already explained the components and cables ecosystem where EMI and RFI impact performance of the components plus each component will pollute the AC line. The premise of my post--How or why does this affect the sonic presentation of the component? I’m not here to prove anything to you. It appears you’re not willing to give this any consideration. So from where I’m standing, this conversation is over. Enjoy what you have. But if and when you eventually crawl from under that rock you may discover you’ve been wrong all along. Take care. Thanks for the kind words. |
@grunge1000, large scale statistical tests of audio differences are extremely difficult to organise and audio manufacturers are not pharmaceutical companies whose budgets and regulatory environment require them. I'm not sure of you are drawing inferences or conclusions from your statement in regard to the absence of tests, but to the extent you are, the absence of tests is simply a statement of fact. It doesn't prove or imply anything about the sonic effects of power cords. |
1. I don’t even know if you have a system 2. It’s clear you haven’t tried any power cords other than stock if you have a system at all 3. Science has been wrong on many occasions but that’s not the point 4. How do you measure details, clarity, precision of imaging, soundstage depth, height and width with an oscilloscope…please enlighten me what measurements define these aspects of listening experience? Can human hearing and interpretation of what we hear by our brains when it comes to tone, what we define as perfect sound, be measured by oscilloscope? Two different power amplifiers with the same measurements will sound different when compared. Same goes for DACs. But when you measure at the output they measure the same. I already explained the components and cables ecosystem where EMI and RFI impact performance of the components plus each component will pollute the AC line. I’m not here to prove anything to you. It appears you’re not willing to give this any consideration. So from where I’m standing, this conversation is over. Enjoy what you have. But if and when you eventually crawl from under that rock you may discover you’ve been wrong all along. Take care. |
@grunge1000 In regards to $2000 PCs, I think you'll find most here, me included, in thinking it's overkill. I've only spent as much as $500 for some PCs and found easily discernible differences and at that point, called it a day and just listened from there on out. The old law of diminishing returns held sway over me and I don't regret not looking further into it. But bog stock PCs just don't cut it for me. All the best, |
Thanks Nonoise. I agree that AC power is dirty. I have invested $100,000+ over the years in cleaning up power in Ultra High Resolution Gamma Spectroscopy. I have seen the results first hand and I have the statistics that can back this up (un-filtered vs filtered spectral data). What I have not found is statistics relating to the use of $2000+ Power Cables, and how they make an observable sonic difference.
Kindest Regards, |
Your hypotheses of all the variances in power that a power line goes through in it's 100s of miles journey presupposes variances in its power delivery, cleanliness and stability, so why would it matter by the time you get in at your outlet. If I'm mistaken about that, let me know. As for taking it upon myself to go and try it out at some of the many points in that delivery line to prove it is patently laughable, if not a down right silly thing to ask. It's on you to go out and test your theories if you have any doubts. It's on you to prove members here wrong. There is no onus on anyone here to prove they hear a difference by measuring it as measurements aren't the only way to "hear" the differences. None other than Stan Warren (formerly of PS Audio) told me back in the late '80s of clean power delivery, its source and how far along the line you are to get decent power at your outlet. It was more than conventional wisdom at the time. It's the way it's understood and is from that old scientific method, observing. This was before the proliferation of EMI from all manner of in home devices and outside forces. Where I live, in the San Fernando Valley, AT&T has been using the power lines as a way of transmitting up to 5Gs of info across the valley. To think that all is hunky-dory and none of that makes it down to your outlet is wishful thinking, at best. If you think measurements are the end all to be all, then I have a bridge to sell you. Maybe you'd get more agreement over at ASR, where everyone tends to think like you and consensus runs high over there for more of that group feel and reassurance. All the best, |
@audphile1--Why? What's the point of listing my system and PC's that I have used. What information has been given that statistically proves that PC's have an impact on sound? I can tell you that my Personal Computer PC is special and it makes my computer runs faster than an 10 Ghz AMD processer--Is that proof??
You are all just grasping as straws here. I am glad you hear a difference but I have not and science dictates that I shouldn't. Again, I am not some ASR junkie, but I am a scientist, so I want some scientific rigor to substantiate your claims.
@ghdprentice --Please. Talk about a biased opinion. They have some really neat tech that is applicable to Power Cords but statistical tests that prove that these cables make a sonic difference is lacking. Again, I would love to see a sonic uptick so I can further my journey--The proof is in the pudding so to speak.
Kindest Regards, |
There is a great video by the founder of Sunyata that explains in detail why the water analogy is just wrong. Here are a couple brief comments. When I have time I'll see if I can find the video... it is very enlightening. For me, the jaw dropping difference with good power cords was enough to convince me they were worth it.
Misconception #1: AC Power is like water coming from a large power tank, flowing through several 10s of feet of power hose into a component. This implies that the component is at the end of this system. "Some power cords use capacitors, inductors, or ferrites in an attempt to control the electromagnetic fields around the audio component. The success of such an approach is completely dependent upon the specific design and the reactance of the power supply of the component to which the power cable is attached.” |
@luvtubes69 @grunge1000 could you please list your systems and the power cables you have tried that made no difference on any of your components? Read it. If you don’t understand it is one thing. But if you continue to ignore the information provided to you and you continue to pound this thread with your “I think” theories without any experience, may be it is time to get back to ASR where Amir does all the thinking for you. Easier that way…don’t strain or burden yourselves. |
"Perhaps not permanently..." The three huge radio towers have gone, and there are houses there now. I do know a street in Canberra where all the houses have been vacated by order because of high radiation risk. Did not stop us working the other side of the road, in clear sight of numerous defence satellite dishes. I do have an absolute example where modifying a power cord causes a digital signal to become unintelligible. I have a KEF subwoofer in my motorhome which can be powered by mains, or via a battery and inverter. When switched on, with the standard power cord, the class D amplifier in the KEF generates so much RFI down the power cord, it stops my TV receiving digital signals over-the-air. Modify the power cord by adding two ferrite chokes and the RFI becomes benign. This is entirely objective, and repeatable. No subjectivity required! My take: stop worrying about the noise coming in from the mains, start worrying about the noise your components might generate |
Nonoise--I didn't start the thread and I am certainly not trolling. You stated this::"Hook up your system to at any point in those 100s of miles of transmission, at step up transformers, step down transformers, at 25 yr old 6 GA and 12 GA wiring, and your system will sound different at all the points you choose. One can't argue that". What got me was the "One can't argue that" statement. Well please prove that a sonic difference is evident, since you stated that it could not be argued.
Coralkong--Could you please point me in the direction of where it is easily demonstratable? Would you happen to have a statistically relevant test stating that PC's make a sonic difference? Thanks in advance. |
The experiment that I would most be interested the results of would be running the Romex straight of of the wall and not into a duplex outlet but instead connecting it to the female connector that connects tio a component. This would bypass the power cord (and the outlet) completely. I am sure that this would violate code, but I don’t really see why it would be anymore dangerous except for I guess it might take more time to unplug stuff in the event of an emergency. I am too lazy to try this. |
Earlier I proposed an experiment to replace a switched mode power supply delivering a nominal 12-Volts DC for a 12-Volt battery in a Faraday cage. The target CD transport is a Sony Univeral disk player with HDMI output. My Windows laptop has an HDMI connection. Does anybody know how to capture CD playback on this HDMI connection to a digital file on the laptop. If so, this should be able to tell if there is a bit-wise difference between power sources when playing back the same CD. Assuming the same starting position! If the two match bit-wise, any sound quality difference would surely have to be caused by the injection of electrical noise into other connected components by the switched mode power supply. Obviously, if I do hear a difference, I have satisfied one person (me) that there is a difference, especially if I hear it consistently in a blind comparison. But I can also hear the objections. My mains is about 250-Volts RMS, not 110. My grid is not like yours. (Mine is geographically the world's biggest, going from the Northern tip of Queensland south down the Great Dividing range then under the ocean to the hydro-electric generators in Tasmania). There's no big industry near where I live, only an electric light rail several miles away, Even the ultra-low frequency submarine communications base has been dismantled. If I can't hear a difference, the CD transport will be too cheap, or my ears too old, or the rest of my gear too unresolving. Thoughts? |
How did you get "aging electrons" from this? It was never stated or implied. What's with the trolling? Is it that the more it makes sense, the more you refuse to entertain the idea? I'm glad you don't hear a difference but to pollute a thread on a subject that's been discussed to death makes it seem like you're bored. Do a "search discussions" on this subject and you'll be entertained (but apparently not swayed) for hours on end. All the best, |
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"Hook up your system to at any point in those 100s of miles of transmission, at step up transformers, step down transformers, at 25 yr old 6 GA and 12 GA wiring, and your system will sound different at all the points you choose. One can't argue that." Thanks for the information but how would my system sound different if it were 10 miles or 90 miles from the point of generation? Do electrons age? I am glad you hear a difference but I am trying to find out why. |
Hook up your system to at any point in those 100s of miles of transmission, at step up transformers, step down transformers, at 25 yr old 6 GA and 12 GA wiring, and your system will sound different at all the points you choose. One can't argue that. What matters is how it sounds at the outlet where utilities code tells you it has to perform within tolerances there or it's not right. AFAIK the same code at the outlet doesn't apply to any point along those 100s of miles of transmission. Enough of that red herring argument. It's been shot down so long ago. How it keeps on like a zombie is beyond me. The same goes for power supplies in amps and sources. Some just make them good enough so as to not burn down your house and some can occupy the whole underside of some gear or require its own chassis. When made like the latter, I can see how different PCs would have little to no effect, but the majority of components aren't made that way. I've only heard slight differences but enough of one to choose one way over the other. Having heard the better way, how could one settle for less for not much more outlay? All the best, |
@steakster +1 good analogy. I think about power cords as conditioners. I found 2 meters sound better than one meter... hence the rule of thumb of always buy 2 meter cords whether you need them or not. Shunyata has a great video by the founder somewhere that shows how the water analogy for power doesn't work. |
Nope! And this is funny! During a two week rafting trip down the Colorado River - through the Grand Canyon - we drank water only from the river - lots of it. No bottled water. The river was hugely contaminated with viruses, bacteria, protozoa, waste products and who knows what else. Thanks to the last 6 inches of the reverse osmosis pump filter, nobody got sick - ever. I did that rafting trip twice. Just like a household filtration system, the drinking water in the kitchen is filtered at the tap - just before the end user. It’s no different for an audio system. - - - - It’s important to understand that digital audio components themselves create noise - which is regurgitated back into the system circuitry. This, in turn, pollutes the other components. An audio system is its own ecosystem. The noise isn’t just coming from the utility company. Much is home-grown. I use quality power cords in conjunction with quality power conditioners to clean my power. My ears tell me that it’s working quite well. |
Firstly, I hope everyone has a prosperous & Happy New Year. I have few extra Shunyata power cords that I've bought & kept over the years. I did a little experiment on the Luxman D-03X player that I use as a transport; I use an Audio Research DAC 9 with 6H30p DR bottles. I've always had a JPS Kaptovator PC (power cord) connected to my D-03X. I then swapped that PC for a AQ Hurricane and voila, smoother sound! I then tried a Shunyata Python CX PC, and it became better. Okay... In goes an Anaconda Zitron PC, and low and behold, better again. I figured I'd need my head examined if I sought out a Sigma V2 NR or crazier Omega QR PC, which would be in the $5K neighborhood. Nope, not gonna do that.... |
During a two week rafting trip down the Colorado River - through the Grand Canyon - we drank water only from the river - lots of it. No bottled water. The river was hugely contaminated with viruses, bacteria, protozoa, waste products and who knows what else. Thanks to the last 6 inches of the reverse osmosis pump filter, nobody got sick - ever. I did that rafting trip twice. Just like a household filtration system, the drinking water in the kitchen is filtered at the tap - just before the end user. It’s no different for an audio system. - - - - It’s important to understand that digital audio components themselves create noise - which is regurgitated back into the system circuitry. This, in turn, pollutes the other components. An audio system is its own ecosystem. The noise isn’t just coming from the utility company. Much is home-grown. I use quality power cords in conjunction with quality power conditioners to clean my power. My ears tell me that it’s working quite well. |
So I don’t own a cd player now but what I’d like to add to the conversation is that I completely believe in cables and from my experience the same cables that were an amazing upgrade for my amp, did not play well with my DAC or Streamer. I believe different components need different things out of the cables. In my case I’m pretty sure the Streamer needed more filtering than my amps. Maybe if I were using a power conditioner cable results would have been different.
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A good question not likely to receive a satisfactory answer for you. But, we hear what we hear. Who are we to judge either those who hear a difference or those who don't. Both are right. Those who hear a difference flat out hear a difference no matter the reason. I find it silly when those who don't hear a difference post that people who do are wrong, like they know better than the person who is actually experiencing it. Whether it's due to some as yet undiscovered scientific explanation or individual perceptual reality bias, we hear what we hear. We've known how to utilize electricity for our purposes for a long time, yet it's still not truly understood how in its most basic constituents all that voodoo works. |
@grunge1000 you’re free to think that. |
This is the way I think of it and I maybe wrong so please add if I am way off base:: The electricity I receive at my humble abode is generated over 100 miles away. It goes through step up and step down transformers before it reaches my house. From there it flows through 25 year old 6 to 12 gauge wire until it finally reaches my outlet. How on gods green earth can a 6 foot cable running into my amplifier make a difference?
Thanks..
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My experience is that everything matters in an audio system. That includes cables, and yes, power cables. Even on source components. Sometimes especially on source components. People are free to disagree with my opinions. We all draw the line somewhere. I don't believe in or hear benefits from some of the more "out there" tweaks on the market, but I hold no ill will towards people who enjoy using them in their systems. To each their own. |
I think fancy power cables make people feel better and that in itself is a benefit. I own a few, and they do make me feel better although I don't think they sound any better, but so what? They look cool, and I'm helping the employees of those companies feed their families or buy interesting sports cars. Win win. |
I am hoping to breach the topic after the first of the year of how seasoned audio veterans can reach diametrically opposed conclusions. This, of course, would assume "due diligence" where careful personal experience (viewpoints NOT opinions) were injected into the conversation. Something that may "peg the needle on your BS meter" and therefore enthusiastically dismissed, will not qualify nor meet the minimum qualification for "hands on/ears on." I also find it interested how entire product categories that have been "established" for decades and have an 80%+ adoption rate by this group (I did the survey) are still dismissed as "snake oil", "pseudo science", or "listening bias." It would take a vast conspiracy to trick dozens of quality manufacturers, their design/engineering teams, hundreds of reps/distributors, an extensive dealer network, and thousands end users into believing that they've been duped and benefits are all contrived and imaginary. Call me naive, but I'd like to believe that audio industry veterans who actually sit down in front of prospective audio gear are actually hearing "something" and correctly relating those observations with a degree of credibility. I have too much respect for those who offer opinions (based on actual experiences) here, to dismiss their findings as rubbish, and not worth taking seriously. |
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@thecarpathian tiny! |
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yes. You got it! Nothing exists in isolation - it’s an ecosystem. I talked about it in my earlier reply to this post and I think we’re on the same page. For those who like stock powrr cords and SMPS, cool by me. Your thoughts and beliefs do not affect the sound of my system in any way. Enjoy the music! |
"Doesn't amperage play a part in this? I also don't see the correlation between changing the power source with changing the power cord" Many of us have to make do with 240-Volt mains supply, so already need less than half the amperage of the 110-Volt crowd! I am proposing an experiment where an AC mains power supply (which happens to be external to the transport and converts AC to 12-Volt DC) is replaced by a 12-Volt battery. The AC power cord is not just changed, it is completely removed. The mains AC, with all its alleged noise, is also completely removed. If need be, the battery and the low voltage cable can be shielded by a Faraday cage. 12-Volt Amperage consumed by the transport would be unchanged, and quite small. Personally, I would expect the output from the transport, as delivered via HDMI, to be indistinguishable at the bit level. But there may be an impact on other components from the removal of the wall wart (switched mode power supply). Not bought from Walmart! |
