DAC 'Scam' Vid

Companies like Chord Electronics which use Field Programmable Gate Arrays exclusively that provide up to a million taps which allows Chord to right extremely intricate and extensive code that results in arguably more sophisticated and higher performance processing compared to "off the shelf" chips which only provide about a hundred taps. You could say faster and more accurate interpolation of the data without errors, encoded in a digital source. As to whether it sounds better would be based on individual experiences.

Unfortunately some people really can't hear differences in cables, DACs and especially power amplifiers.

If you can good luck to you!

Everything else is clickbait.

I don't waste time watching these silly You Tube videos.

Nonsense.

Youtube videos that a DAC shouldn't be over $150-$200 seem to be the currently very popular...there are some surprisingly good low cost DAC's out there now (currently using a $129 Schiit Modi+ on desktop), but have found more expensive DAC's from Schiit, PS Audio, Denfrips etc that sound much better...

@smodtactical 

Why not use your ears and decide for yourself? 

Isn't this the second thread on the same or similar video? This crowd is getting rather tiring. 

@roxy54, if I may Total Nonsense!

I think telling folks they can get $10,000 performance for $200 is an easy way to get clicks. Some have built big channels off of selling that idea and it would be nice if it were true. The good news is that there seems to be a lot of quality dacs/streamers that are not terribly expensive, but that's not to say they sound as good as the best.

I’ve tried 10 different DACs in my system.  Once I got above about $200 US they all sounded good.  Once I got up near 2K they sounded better.  2K was the top of my budget.  Ended up choosing the Holo Audio Cyan 2.  It was not the most expensive at 1300 but sounded the best to me in my system.  Do DACs that cost thousands more sound better, possibly but I couldn’t afford them so I don’t worry about it.  I’m not going to demo something that I can’t afford.  Need to avoid FOMO with this hobby.  Your experience may differ.  

Ok, since you asked,

• In my system I have heard differences in the sound of every DAC I have tried (at least a dozen)
• In most cases, the more expensive DACs have sounded better to me, although the differences are sometimes more subtle than large
• The two DACs currently in my main system are the most expensive I have owned, and also the best sounding
• One of them is about 100 times the cost you referenced, as the maximum necessary for good sound, and it is probably the best sounding DAC that I have heard
• Although the DAC sounds great, I can envision a couple of things that could be improved on, IMO
• Whether I ever chase those improvements with a different DAC becomes a personal value decision
• I will enjoy my system either way
• the best way for you to answer your own question would be for you to purchase the $200 DAC, live with it for a while, and then try a well-regarded DAC at whatever higher price point you choose.

BTW, IMO,  “snake oil”  is a dumb term that is loosely used around here in posts intended to be provocative.  The price of something is a value proposition, if you can’t afford it or don’t believe it provides enough value for the price then don’t buy it.  If the manufacturer misrepresents the performance, irrespective of price, then that is fraud. Unfortunately, in the audio world, there seems to be a grey area called wishful thinking that falls between fact and fraud.

http://forum.audiogon.com/posts/2799450

@mitch2 which two dacs are currently in your system and have you heard the SW1X dac. I'm currently in the considering it, the new Rockna Signature, or MSB equivalent. 

This is beyond my comprehension because I am a fool, I have a fuse upgrade collection.

@ericrhodes1 - The two DACs I have here now in my main system are Mojo Audio’s Mystique X SE (with AD1862-Z chips and Lundahl’s nano-crystalline chokes)  ($12.5 list) and an Aries Cerat Helene ($19K list).  They both sound good to me but I have owned the Helene for only a few weeks so still working out options to make it sound its best in my system - trying different tubes, cables, and bias settings (it is adjustable).

I have not heard or owned any of the three you listed but I have been reading good things about the new ROCKNA Wavedream Reference Signature ($25K), and the MSB Premier ($27.5K) was on my very short list.  I decided to try the AC Helene first but would be interested to hear the other two, as well as a Totaldac d1-unity $13K) or d1-biunity ($20.7K).  I do not have any interest in SW1X.

@mitch2 I've read great things about the AC line. Interested in your opinion once you've had a chance to hear it. 

I went from a $15K DAC to a $2800 DAC and that was a huge conic improvement. I am trying to buy the same $2800 DAC for another system.

The authors of these videos seem to forget that a DAC is more than just the DA conversion, it is also the first pre-pre-amp in your analogue chain. Similar to a photo stage. The other thing is isolation to noise. Better designed DACs are immune to upstream (and even internal) noise. Beyond this there are finer points like the clock… anyway, it’s always more than it looks like at first glance. 

Seems to me the benefits of higher dollar DACs are found in the analog conversion side and the power supply circuit.

Those who can, do, those who can’t teach or complain. 

This past weekend I finished my upgrade from a $7k Cary to a $30k plus Naim ND 555 with the separate 555DR power supply. As good as the Cary sounded in my system, the Naim is much better all around, as it should be given the price. After selling my Cary in preparation for the incoming Naim, I installed my backup DAC/Streamer, Arcam ST60, which I realized fairly quickly why I had used the Cary in place if it. For the most part, I am a believer in that you get what you pay for, within reason. That extends to all aspects of the audio equipment chain. Yes, my 22X25 foot room is treated. Yes, the rest of my system is at the level of the Naim ND555. I am pleased with the synergy amongst it all.

“Those who can, do, those who can’t teach or complain. ”

I have heard this said, and repeated by simpletons over and over. It’s ridiculously stupid.

As to the OP. If you think or anyone thinks all DACs sound the same, just buy a budget DAC and live happy. Life is too short to argue about whether anyone spends too much cash on a DAC. 

@2psyop Thank you for the kind words. 

Don’t let facts get in the way, I have to ask are you a teacher or a complainer?

Your friend the Mayor of Simpleton.

@2psyop + 1

Pearls before swine.

Not sure I would agree with “stupid” but maybe apply the 80/20 rule - i.e., not always the case.

Of the 20 percent, I have seen those who can’t do, and I have seen those who can teach, and I have heard pretty much everyone complain. Personally, I do, teach, and complain.

@yyzsantabarbara 

I went from a $15K DAC to a $2800 DAC and that was a huge conic improvement. I am trying to buy the same $2800 DAC for another system.

The maxim: "Spending more will not guarantee satisfaction" is true. I just discovered its veracity when I auditioned an 8.5K DAC and to my surprise, preferred the onboard DAC in my Hegel integrated. 

My TL/DR opinion is that this is nonsense.  Buy the best DAC you can afford.  I had a Doge 7 DAC for a number of years, not a bad DAC, but I got tired of the tube output colorations.  I borrowed a friend's Chord Mojo and thought it pointed in the direction I was looking for, so I found a used Qutest for $1100.  It's a tremendous upgrade for me and fits into my current system very well.  Cleaner, quieter, with muuuuuch more information coming through.  My listening buddy was over yesterday and was floored at the difference it made in everything we listened to.

I have a $200 DAC in the bedroom system.  It isn't remotely comparable to the Qutest.

By the same token, I've heard some very expensive DACs I didn't care for.  But by no means is anything over $200 a "waste of money."

Extremely well said guys. The concept of the pre-pre amp and the importance of the analog stage.. also what about R2R dacs... the chip does it all argument falls apart there.

My experience is that dacs can make a big difference sonically and I could easily hear differences in many of the dacs I had. Right now my ANK 4.1x has a very distinct sound relative to my denafrips terminator or PS DS mk1.

Its weird to me how you could make such a big mistake by simplifying everything to 'a chip is a chip'. When I posted about this on head-fi surprisingly many people were actually agreeing with the guy in the video and it left me scratching my head.

I can hear differences between all the dac i bought... just a few...

But i was able to tune my room by hear adjusting like a piano tuner 100 resonators with time...

Once this is said...

 The difference between dac pale compared to differences between acoustically  uncontrolled and controlled  room ...

And i must add that in many "living room "  the differences between dac will be not audible by most ...

My response in the comments just now: "idk if a 20+ year veteran mastering engineer is the best option to critique DACs lol. You can barely hear your wife and kids from blown out hearing. This is like an old hooker telling two virgins what will or won't be enjoyable on the 1st night of their honeymoon lol."

To the OP.

I am glad you got some kind of confirmation here and I would agree with most statements about differences in sound in DACS.

To texasblues1959

I don’t think you are the Mayor of Simpleton but if you are from Texas I have a few questions for you.

Are the generalizations or stereotypical statements about Texas true or false?

"Texans only wear cowboy hats and ride horses everywhere"

"Texans only listen to two types of music- Country and Western "

"Football is the most important thing to a Texan"

"All Texans drive trucks, wear boots and kill snakes in their back yard to eat for dinner"

I ask this because I think stereotype comments and generalizations are funny and repeated by people mostly to entertain themselves and to get a laugh. Should I think these things are true about Texans?

@smodtactical 

If you believe that video, then why are you even here?

(If your post was facetious then please disregard my previous comment.)

@tony1954 Check out my post 4 above you.

@smodtactical 

Sorry. Should have done my research before starting to type.  

Mostly these kinds of threads tell me more about what wealthy hobbyists think about their money than what they think about equipment.

Best JS

Many hate when i spoke of the importance of acoustics over any dac  or gear upgrade at any price...

There must be a kernel of truth in your post....

Mostly these kinds of threads tell me more about what wealthy hobbyists think about their money than what they think about equipment.

If you spent less than$1000 on your entire system, you cannot tell the difference between a $200 DAC and a better, more expensive DAC. 

@strawj 

"Mostly these kinds of threads tell me more about what wealthy hobbyists think about their money than what they think about equipment."

Interesting take on this thread.  Can you provide an example?

Here we go again, evaluating DAC's soley based on the DAC Chip that it uses.

The most important factor for buying a dac is buying one which price will be commensurate with the others gear pieces value...

If not, evaluating a few thousand  bucks dac in a low cost system as mine makes no sense...

There is good dac at all price level... Thanks to an improving technology...

And evaluating costlier dac in a living room or in a showroom means nothing...

Acoustics control must exist for any evaluation...

And  if the design of a dac and  not only his chip matter,  the way we install it in our own system matter as much...

Some people  don’t know what they are talking about. One dac chip just starts the building process many other parts equal the sum .

Power supplies  ,filtering ,buffers there are many many things that go into every brand dacs and all are different especially over $1k that is something I would expect on ASR review . They can enjoy their $700 topping dac.

As anyone tried the McIntosh DAC? And if so how does it compare to other DACs?

+1 @smodtactical 

+1 @mahgister 

I heard a SIGNIFICANT difference with each of my moves.

1917: iPhone/Pure DAC 

2019: Devialet 400

2023: Vinnie Rossi L2S preamp with DAC

2024: Playback Designs MPD-8

The PURE was not good enough for background music. The Devialet was okay. The VR showed me that digital could be eminently listenable. The PD blew me away. The latter uses an FPGA, but also incorporates a superb analog preamp section along with three separate power supplies, one for each digital channel and one for the analog section.

It has pretty much replaced my need (but not desire) for analog. And Maghister is correct about the impact of the listening environment. Without room treatment, what you hear is not music but a smear of notes. Might be a very nice smear, but a smear nonetheless.

That's what a lot of these other Audiogon members love. Snake oil. This DAC thing isn't new,  but add it to the list of things that are killing this hobby.

When you can buy a state of the art transport for $3,000 but a state of the art DAC costs $15,000, something is wrong.

Are you paying for parts, voodoo, or doodoo?

The guy clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. Take a cheap DAC. Swap out it's crappy power supply with a nice linear one and tell me if you can't hear a difference. If that DAC has a socketed op amp for its output stage, swap out the op amp for  a nice discreet one and tell me if you can't hear a difference again.

Is there a lot of snake oil in high-end audio? Of course. But to say that nothing in a DAC matters except the chip is just completely untrue.

I went from a 1K DAC to a 6K+ DAC.  The difference was mind blowing.

There is a certain contingent here (and elsewhere) that will not believe anything I am about to write and that is OK, you can listen to whatever you want.  I have been upgrading DAC’s for a long time. The step up from MSB + "stuff" to PS Audio DirectStream was significant in musicality, accuracy, air, speed, soundstage, vocal timbre, the things you buy good systems to experience. But the step up to a Linn Klimax DSM/3 was even more significant, in a league of its own kind of territory. 

You are not going to hear a lot of this unless your system is up to the task. When I put the Linn in my system, I had an Audio Research Ref 75 SE driving well sorted Thiel speakers in a properly prepared room and good cables (Audience AU75 SE mostly).  The Linn is direct in to the amp. With this setup, it was quite easy to evaluate the last two steps in the DAC upgrade. 

It’s hard to describe what a "reference" sound system sounds like until you hear one. This almost never happens in a dealer showroom, they are set up "good" (sometimes) but not the way in which you can tune your own room.  

What do you have to spend to get an analog rig that rivals the Linn Klimax DSM (or similar/better)? I have no idea. My Thorens / Hana set up is nowhere close (PS Audio phono preamp). But I bet Linn can sell you a Sondek setup that will come close (as can other top end manufacturers), but it will be very, very, very spendy. These days I only spin vinyl when I have it and it isn’t available on Qobuz. 

dCS threatens lawsuit over bad review:  https://www.head-fi.org/threads/goldensound-being-threatened-with-a-lawsuit-by-dcs-over-a-negative-review.973514/