Thank you @mitch2. I looked at your system too, and can understand why you think that way. Looks great!
DAC 'Scam' Vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Sg1nYLmLCw
The TL:DW is that any well made Dac should not be more than $200 and anything above that doesn't sound any better since they all use similar cheap chips to do the D/A conversion. Anything above $200 for a DAC is basically snake oil and theres no improvement in sonics.
Appreciate your insights.
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@hifikenobi - I did check out your system and it is wonderful - thanks for posting it! Like you, I also find the differences in DACs not subtle. I recently added an Aries Cerat Helene DAC to my system and, after finally getting it dialed in, I find the sound to be compellingly natural/organic with a mix of clarity, sweetness, bloom, dynamics, and rich tonal qualities that come together in a very convincing manner. I currently have five other DACs here and can easily pick out the differences between them. |
I can’t speak for @wesheadley, but I have always level matched my comparisons and the differences are not subtle. My journey had humble beginnings with several DACs from brands like Topping, Cambridge Audio and others. The best I’ve ever heard in this price range, and probably still the best value for money, is RME’s ADI-2 Pro Black Edition. Super accurate and neutral, as it should be for a pro audio DAC. Then I spent several years with a Holo Audio May KTE. The galvanic isolation and careful R2R all made a huge difference, not to mention the possibility to combine with HQP and 1.5Mhz NOS mode to really play with and understand filters. More recently I’ve gone up the chain to a class-leading network DAC from Esoteric. Please see my system. Is it worth the orders of magnitude higher cost over Holo May? No. Is it an audible difference due to the better clocking and higher quality analogue section? Yes, absolutely. FWIW, let me repeat that a DAC is more than the DA conversion in the chip or ladder. It’s also the pre-pre-amp of your system. Saying that doesn’t matter is like saying the phone stage doesn’t matter. But of course, each system/ room is unique, including the room and what’s audible in one might not be in another. |
@wesheadley - Have you ever actually made that comparison yourself, or are you just speculating? |
Those who claimed that there is no differences between dac are deluded... But those who claimed there is a big difference between dac are deluded too ... ( i spoke of dac with relatively the same bracket of price, a 100 $ dac dont compare with a few thousand dollars one in a high end system )
Why ?
Because it is the threefold well optimized installation of the system/room in his three working dimensions : mechanical,electrical and especially acoustical that makes possible an audible evaluation of dac or of any piece of gear...
Then this debate as the one between "objectivist" and "subjectivist" is grounded in a different complementary ignorance by the two opposite camps...
It is remarkable that i am almost the only one stating this evident fact... |
This video is completely accurate. The plain truth. One would hope common sense would make it painfully obvious that beyond a certain point of build quality and parts (P/S in particular), the rest is B.S. Level match a properly working $1k DAC and A/B that with a $20k DAC in the same audio circuit and I’d bet anybody they will NEVER EVER be able to tell which is which. This is not what people that spend stupid money on components like this want to hear, and that is why the scamming will go on and on and on. BTW, did you know that if you place a 28 gram piece of meteorite on top of your DAC it will increase frequency coherancy through harmonic quantum convergence? |
Call me old fashioned, but how the US English language has changed! I still think of a Digital to Analogue Converter (DAC) as just having the function of turning a digital signal into an analogue equivalent. As such it is often implemented as a chip, and such chips offer vastly different capabilities which can often be discovered by looking at (what is missing from) their respective specification sheets. |
Your post illustrate well what is a sophism: (---Some sellers of snake oil claim that their dac makes an extraordinary difference... ---This fact was proven by blind test which debunk them,and placebo effect is always only a delusion, ---Then all those perceiving an audible differences between dac are snake oil peddlers...) Did you catch the hole in your thought or is it necessary that i spell it for you ?
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If you believe this is true, what then? If you believe it isn't true, what then? Why does this writer's opinion about what is or isn't audible or worth the expense of buying a DAC at any price important to you? I happen to believe he is wrong, based on my own experiences of DACs above and below his threshold of $200. This seems like a troll. Of course that doesn't mean I think the price of a DAC is a useful indicator of its quality, performance or value compared to other DACs. |
@rwwear how is the dcs law suit thing related to this thread? |
If i gave my resume of audio sound quality: --- All pieces of gear by budget limit virtue must be on the same level of quality scale, speakers,dac,amplifier, pre, turntable etc --- A dac installation cannot replace acouastics control at any price, but the best acoustics control at any price cannot replace a dac either --- but it is way easier to buy a relatively good dac than to create acoustics balanced controls of a system/room... --- Those who do not perceive difference between dac must forget acoustics, their hearing will not be as resolving as necessary to install mechanical acoustic control of the system /room... --- Then you must pay an acoustician or live with the illusion that gear upgrade solve all problem... Sorry for you ... |
dCS threatens lawsuit over bad review: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/goldensound-being-threatened-with-a-lawsuit-by-dcs-over-a-negative-review.973514/ |
There is a certain contingent here (and elsewhere) that will not believe anything I am about to write and that is OK, you can listen to whatever you want. I have been upgrading DAC’s for a long time. The step up from MSB + "stuff" to PS Audio DirectStream was significant in musicality, accuracy, air, speed, soundstage, vocal timbre, the things you buy good systems to experience. But the step up to a Linn Klimax DSM/3 was even more significant, in a league of its own kind of territory. You are not going to hear a lot of this unless your system is up to the task. When I put the Linn in my system, I had an Audio Research Ref 75 SE driving well sorted Thiel speakers in a properly prepared room and good cables (Audience AU75 SE mostly). The Linn is direct in to the amp. With this setup, it was quite easy to evaluate the last two steps in the DAC upgrade. It’s hard to describe what a "reference" sound system sounds like until you hear one. This almost never happens in a dealer showroom, they are set up "good" (sometimes) but not the way in which you can tune your own room. What do you have to spend to get an analog rig that rivals the Linn Klimax DSM (or similar/better)? I have no idea. My Thorens / Hana set up is nowhere close (PS Audio phono preamp). But I bet Linn can sell you a Sondek setup that will come close (as can other top end manufacturers), but it will be very, very, very spendy. These days I only spin vinyl when I have it and it isn’t available on Qobuz. |
The guy clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. Take a cheap DAC. Swap out it's crappy power supply with a nice linear one and tell me if you can't hear a difference. If that DAC has a socketed op amp for its output stage, swap out the op amp for a nice discreet one and tell me if you can't hear a difference again.
Is there a lot of snake oil in high-end audio? Of course. But to say that nothing in a DAC matters except the chip is just completely untrue. |
+1 @mahgister I heard a SIGNIFICANT difference with each of my moves. 1917: iPhone/Pure DAC 2019: Devialet 400 2023: Vinnie Rossi L2S preamp with DAC 2024: Playback Designs MPD-8 The PURE was not good enough for background music. The Devialet was okay. The VR showed me that digital could be eminently listenable. The PD blew me away. The latter uses an FPGA, but also incorporates a superb analog preamp section along with three separate power supplies, one for each digital channel and one for the analog section. It has pretty much replaced my need (but not desire) for analog. And Maghister is correct about the impact of the listening environment. Without room treatment, what you hear is not music but a smear of notes. Might be a very nice smear, but a smear nonetheless.
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Some people don’t know what they are talking about. One dac chip just starts the building process many other parts equal the sum . Power supplies ,filtering ,buffers there are many many things that go into every brand dacs and all are different especially over $1k that is something I would expect on ASR review . They can enjoy their $700 topping dac. |
The most important factor for buying a dac is buying one which price will be commensurate with the others gear pieces value... If not, evaluating a few thousand bucks dac in a low cost system as mine makes no sense... There is good dac at all price level... Thanks to an improving technology... And evaluating costlier dac in a living room or in a showroom means nothing... Acoustics control must exist for any evaluation... And if the design of a dac and not only his chip matter, the way we install it in our own system matter as much...
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@tony1954 Check out my post 4 above you. |
To the OP. I am glad you got some kind of confirmation here and I would agree with most statements about differences in sound in DACS. To texasblues1959 I don’t think you are the Mayor of Simpleton but if you are from Texas I have a few questions for you. Are the generalizations or stereotypical statements about Texas true or false? "Texans only wear cowboy hats and ride horses everywhere" "Texans only listen to two types of music- Country and Western " "Football is the most important thing to a Texan" "All Texans drive trucks, wear boots and kill snakes in their back yard to eat for dinner" I ask this because I think stereotype comments and generalizations are funny and repeated by people mostly to entertain themselves and to get a laugh. Should I think these things are true about Texans? |
My response in the comments just now: "idk if a 20+ year veteran mastering engineer is the best option to critique DACs lol. You can barely hear your wife and kids from blown out hearing. This is like an old hooker telling two virgins what will or won't be enjoyable on the 1st night of their honeymoon lol." |
I can hear differences between all the dac i bought... just a few... But i was able to tune my room by hear adjusting like a piano tuner 100 resonators with time... Once this is said... The difference between dac pale compared to differences between acoustically uncontrolled and controlled room ... And i must add that in many "living room " the differences between dac will be not audible by most ...
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Extremely well said guys. The concept of the pre-pre amp and the importance of the analog stage.. also what about R2R dacs... the chip does it all argument falls apart there. My experience is that dacs can make a big difference sonically and I could easily hear differences in many of the dacs I had. Right now my ANK 4.1x has a very distinct sound relative to my denafrips terminator or PS DS mk1. Its weird to me how you could make such a big mistake by simplifying everything to 'a chip is a chip'. When I posted about this on head-fi surprisingly many people were actually agreeing with the guy in the video and it left me scratching my head. |
My TL/DR opinion is that this is nonsense. Buy the best DAC you can afford. I had a Doge 7 DAC for a number of years, not a bad DAC, but I got tired of the tube output colorations. I borrowed a friend's Chord Mojo and thought it pointed in the direction I was looking for, so I found a used Qutest for $1100. It's a tremendous upgrade for me and fits into my current system very well. Cleaner, quieter, with muuuuuch more information coming through. My listening buddy was over yesterday and was floored at the difference it made in everything we listened to. I have a $200 DAC in the bedroom system. It isn't remotely comparable to the Qutest. By the same token, I've heard some very expensive DACs I didn't care for. But by no means is anything over $200 a "waste of money." |
The maxim: "Spending more will not guarantee satisfaction" is true. I just discovered its veracity when I auditioned an 8.5K DAC and to my surprise, preferred the onboard DAC in my Hegel integrated. |
@2psyop + 1 |
@2psyop Thank you for the kind words. Don’t let facts get in the way, I have to ask are you a teacher or a complainer? Your friend the Mayor of Simpleton. |
“Those who can, do, those who can’t teach or complain. ” I have heard this said, and repeated by simpletons over and over. It’s ridiculously stupid. As to the OP. If you think or anyone thinks all DACs sound the same, just buy a budget DAC and live happy. Life is too short to argue about whether anyone spends too much cash on a DAC. |
This past weekend I finished my upgrade from a $7k Cary to a $30k plus Naim ND 555 with the separate 555DR power supply. As good as the Cary sounded in my system, the Naim is much better all around, as it should be given the price. After selling my Cary in preparation for the incoming Naim, I installed my backup DAC/Streamer, Arcam ST60, which I realized fairly quickly why I had used the Cary in place if it. For the most part, I am a believer in that you get what you pay for, within reason. That extends to all aspects of the audio equipment chain. Yes, my 22X25 foot room is treated. Yes, the rest of my system is at the level of the Naim ND555. I am pleased with the synergy amongst it all. |
The authors of these videos seem to forget that a DAC is more than just the DA conversion, it is also the first pre-pre-amp in your analogue chain. Similar to a photo stage. The other thing is isolation to noise. Better designed DACs are immune to upstream (and even internal) noise. Beyond this there are finer points like the clock… anyway, it’s always more than it looks like at first glance. |
