Charging A Fee To Demo An Amplifier In A Brick & Mortar Store

I have bought items from this dealer and he was always respectful and gave me a great price. Most of the items he carries are way out of my price range but he genuinely tries to accommodate my needs as best as he can.

mitch4t,

My current system is here:

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/876

Nice system, no doubt about it, but what launches it into different galaxy is your tuner. Hats off.

Perhaps the seller is trying to recoup the electricity cost of turning the amps on 😂

I have been to this store 3 times and it is one of my favourites in Los Angeles. They have amazing gear and were very pleasant to deal with. I demoed 2 speakers there the first time I went. Sunil wanted me to hear a much more expensive Wilson Alexa setup just to hear what was possible. He knew I was not able to buy anything that day.  I left with a good opinion.

The other 2 times I went, it was during presentations done with the Los Angeles Audio Society. Again great events with a lot of attendees.

I am buying gear now and I always check to see if they have any gear that I could buy because of the nice way they have treated me. Brooks Berdan and Excel Audio are 2 others that treated me great. Going to be spreading my dollars to these 3 dealers.

I actually have not gone to demo some gear because I was not ready to buy. I would have gone if I could have paid a fee. I know the issues BM  stores are facing.

It was suggested that this is equivalent to a restocking fee; I disagree.  If I buy equipment from Schiit or Tekton and I don't like it I have to send it back, probably pay shipping both ways, and pay a restocking fee.  But ... I have auditioned the equipment for 15 days in my home, in my system.  That is very different from an audition in the dealer's room, with the dealer's equipment.  

I see zero issue with that assuming the fee is reasonable and can be used towards store credit. Don’t tubes have a finite life? Smart guy. Separates the buyers from the pikers.  

When I created this post, I was truly curious if high end stores were now charging for an in-store demo. I’d never before heard of such a thing.
I had no intention of being critical of the seller...I just wanted to know if this was now a widespread and common practice in high end audio. Had I’d walked into a hifi shop unaware of this practice and a guy told me there’s a $500 fee for an audition, I would’ve been offended and felt insulted. Now that I’m aware of it, I can choose to walk in their doors or not.

I love Audio Research preamps. I’ve owned several of them and I think they are amazing. I’ve always wondered if their tube amps are as good as their preamps.

I own two pairs of Pass Labs monoblocks that I’m thoroughly satisfied with. I’ve been member of Audiogon for 20 years. Without fail, year in and year out I keep hearing about the magic of tube amplifiers from members of this forum. I’d never entertain the thought of paying $60k for an amplifier...however, if the price was right on a pre-owned pair, I’d consider a change if the tube amps were all they were cracked up to be. 

The amps are now priced at $17k.

I’ve also had the same curiosity about high powered Class-A monoblocs.
I periodically peruse Audiogon to see if these megabuck amps have fallen into my price range. Well, the current monoblocks are in my price range. However, I don’t need any amplifiers....but if I can be convinced by proof of listening that these monoblocks in question are head and shoulders above what I currently have, I’d certainly entertain the thought of purchasing them. I could sell my current amps to absorb part of the purchase price.

This seller is asking $500 for an in-store demo.

If that’s his business policy, I have no quarrel with that. But I do have a choice whether or not to go along with it.

These amps for sale have no warranty.

My current system is here:

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/876

We need to be compensated. Simple as that. Hope this makes this clear.

What a crock of ****, wait till he gets there, if he seems legit (a good salesman can tell).
Then set the amps up on a system that’s all ready up and running.
 Charging to do this is doesn't do your credibility any favors.

Cheers George

As a consumer, I would expect the seller to demonstrate that the units actually work. At his expense.  If I purchased them untested, lugged them home to discover something was wrong then have to return them, is the seller going to compensate me for my time?  I think not.

this is a joke! He owns a store and has the amps packed up already. The pic shows the amps out in a system, he should leave them hooked up to attract potential buyers.
Can you imagine if car dealers would charge for a demo run? They have to do more sanitizing than an amp would require.
Run, don't walk away from this place

A good move, businessmen also have to survive in e-commerce world. A nominal fee per hour is welcome both customer & industry doesn't feel guilty. Everything costs to run demo in a business.

Had a dealer wanting to charge me $500.00 to audition a Mac 275 in my home. That's why I've still never heard one.

WOW ! This is amazing. To make things clear this is a $60,000.00 pair of Amplifiers. This has been put into storage. We have to setup a complete vignette and connect everything. This is the reason we asked the customer who was interested to call us. We could set them up with Vandersteen, Vivid Audio, Martin Logan, Stenheim, Egglestonworks etc. To do this custom for a proper audition that makes sense, we need to be compensated. Simple as that. Hope this makes this clear.

Then you are in the wrong business. 

Yeah -  fuggedaboutit

For one the guy is a jerk for charging and just reduced his chances of selling by st least 50%.  I sold audio for years ,never a charge .
what is the $$ amount out of curiosity ?

Also our local Porsche dealer required a signed purchase agreement to drive the big HP turbos.... wishing I could get one for $17 k.... tubes or not :-))))

Just to be clear, the $500 gets you a store credit that can be used towards anything else the retailer offers.  Quite often when I visit an audio retailer and audition something, I typically purchase an album or 2 as a way to show my support and appreciation for their time.  

I was also fortunate to run a high end store w no commission sales team...

when a customer came in and after asking them “
how can I help “? Sometimes they would reply “ no, I am just looking “
I always said in reply “ when I go to the bookstore I tell them no thank you I am just listening “

tended to break the ice, music was next !!!!

One thing to consider, with 800 hours on the tubes, its going to cost a few grand to retube the units if you buy them from ARC.   I think why they have been sitting for so long is huge the price to retube them when it is needed.  It is a BIG expense.  I hope you live in Alaska or Siberia as those amps will probably keep your house hot year round.

Yes in my serious search for an amp or amps to replace my Ayre, I have auditioned both the 650
and 750. They are sonic wonders w right speakers and imo a tube salesman dream. New with zero hours, home setup, etc they are in the realm of coin Sunil is talking - obviously less demo or used. Let’s be clear, a pair of these are exotic and not inexpensive- do some research on this family of amplifiers and ARC design philosophy and you will understand- minimal fusing - parts on the board are the fuses.... so this ain’t a deep market product. Now ( lots of years managing a 6 + high end showroom store ) if any of us are honest there are tire kickers. The guy here has a name, it’s Sunil - I don’t know him super well. Like all humans, he has his fans and detractors.  Btw that  price is right in line with values for the 650 when I was looking. Magic if you can stand the heat, tube bills and like soldering now and then...

Jim

A misconception here is that these are $60K amps. They are NOT! They’re $17K used amps with about 800 hours on them. It’s doubtful that anyone would tire kick these and go buy them elsewhere given the huge discount which, in and of itself, would give me pause in considering them. A B&M seller who charges for an in-store demo simply can’t compete with his internet colleagues ... and it is obvious to me that he knows it.

Though I can understand the dealer's point of view, I can't accept it completely.
Given that the amps are used and fairly expensive, I see no reason to charge for an audition. Exactly how many people are wanting to audition these amps?
When I bought much lower priced merchandise on Audiogon from private sellers, they not only allowed me to audition, but invited me into their homes.
@OP, I think you should spend your money elsewhere, regardless of whether those amps float your boat.
Bob

@laaudionut asked: Sep-16-2020

What is the inconvenience fee associated with an in-store demo...fully face masked, of course?

@smer319 replied:

These are packed and put away. Can you tell me what kind of system would you want it demonstrated with ? Please call the store...Probably $500.00 which will be applied to purchase price of $16995.00.

So the amps are packed up and smer319 will get them out, set them up, and demonstrate them with gear the potential buyer requests. A $500 deposit is not an unreasonable request to do that. These are big, heavy, complicated amps. The buyer has the option to just buy them off the internet, unseen and unheard, like most of us do all the time, and not pay the deposit.

@mrdecibel said:

Back when I was in the industry, and even more recently since then, I have experienced and heard stories of people going into shops ( by both the shop staff and the listener ), listening for hours, and then, the listener leaving, only to buy the auditioned products, elsewhere, likely for less, either new or used ( off of the internet, or another store ),

We all know this is a big problem for retailers now, and it’s why many are closing up their stores for good. I think it’s a good idea to try to see the situation from both the buyer’s and the seller’s point of view and be a little less judgmental. I don’t think it’s easy to run a profitable audio store today.

"Try running a store, be profitable and have people who request you to do 6 hours of work and then purchase product that is 1/10th the price used from ebay."

I doubt that anyone here is not aware of that. At the same time, people have their ideas. One of them is that some used amplifier is still used amplifier. From what I understand, it is a good one. Why not keep it and demo speakers with it? It is a $60 000 amplifier that you can keep for $16 995.

Good news, there is no such an amplifier on eBay for $6000, much less for $1695.50, at this moment.

If they were gonna charge me for an audition, I’d probably gleefully unleash torrents of abuse on them. Just because. It would take a lot to keep my dander down. Then again. Were the sellers lovely folks? Was I absolutely smitten by the components? Was the seller offering to sweeten the deal a tad?

Point of clarification, you want to be compensated.


While I would accept that COVID times are different, certainly in normal times, your staff, the equipment you have on hand, etc. are sunk costs. You are going to incur them whether you have a demonstration or not. 

It is also a $17,000 amplifier, It is not a $60,000 amplifier. 

Imagine going to a car dealer for a look see and test drive and being told, "Nah, it’s gonna cost you to test drive this rust bucket."

Not exactly that, but something parallel to that happened to me. I wanted to test drive a Mitsubishi (roughly $30 000 or 40 000 car at that time, I do not remember anymore). Dealer asked for $5000 deposit before test drive he would be present at anyway. So I have never driven a Mitsubishi.

Speaking of judging the seriousness that the dealer from our amplifier story is talking about, I was very serious about buying that car on the spot. Now, the difference is that it was a new car and these are old amplifiers.

It's easy to say rude things to dealers. Try running a store, be profitable and have people who request you to do 6 hours of work and then purchase product that is 1/10th the price used from ebay. In this case we have policies in place.

WOW ! This is amazing. To make things clear this is a $60,000.00 pair of Amplifiers. This has been put into storage. We have to setup a complete vignette and connect everything. This is the reason we asked the customer who was interested to call us. We could set them up with Vandersteen, Vivid Audio, Martin Logan, Stenheim, Egglestonworks etc. To do this custom for a proper audition that makes sense, we need to be compensated. Simple as that. Hope this makes this clear.

"When we are selling DEMOS on products that retail at $60,000.00 USD for $16,995.00 then we have to charge a fee."

I am not in retail business, but I thought that when a a store is selling DEMOS, it is selling used items that rarely cost as much as the original retail. If $16 995 is really such a great deal, essentially loss for the seller, increasing a price to $40 000 and waiving auditioning fee may be the way to go. Even now, the line of tire kickers seems to be long. At least if we go by Audiogon clicks.

OP did a good job in advertising these amplifiers. Someone may get them. The question remains, though. How much will be OP’s fee for finally bringing the sale to an item not many were willing to buy?

@smer319  So, just how much is said fee?  I believe the OP never received clarification on this point.

Interesting situation. Auditions without a sale are just part of the business. The salesman’s job is to bond with the customer demonstrating the advantages of buying from him. A fee is absurd unless you can take them home for a few days. Even then I think it’s customer unfriendly.

Any retailer of course free to do anything they want within the limits of legality. I have to question a retailer who throws away one of the few things remaining compared to online though. This website and others like it are case studies in word of mouth advertising. That "hobbyist" may not buy him, but they will tell some friends, and they will go online and talk about their experience. It is hard to beat first hand praise.


I must say, though, I have my doubt about a hobbyist spending "3-4" hours reviewing anything in a store. If they don’t have experience with high end audio, then this would be rather boring for them, and if they do personally, then tend to know the value of time and money and most won’t waste someone else’s.


If this is truly a concern, a more reasonable policy would be too set a demo time limit, and it could even be short, i.e. 20 minutes. This is fairly justifiable as tube-life is not infinite and replacement cost is substantial for amps such as this. If you want to listen past 20 minutes, then you need to contribute to the re-tubing fund. Any serious audiophile will understand these costs and why there would be a limitation. Margin on used gear is also lower so more justification on a time limit.


Progressive businesses thrive, regressive businesses decline and fail. In my early career I worked for two companis that tried to extract every last bit of margin out of the customer, while I watched our competitors eat our lunch over time by reducing their margin, but selling more and more ultimately making more profit and also reaching an economy of scale we couldn't compete with.

Geek!   And I say that in the most respectful, Star-Trekky sort of way.  

First rule of acquisition, "Once you get their money, you never give it back".

@mitch4t,  Another question is HOW interested are you in these Audio Research Reference 750 Mono Block Amplifiers, list price of $55,000, on sale for $16,995?  Have you been looking for a long time?  Do you REALLY LIKE these amps for this price?   To be honest, I am surprised these amps are for sale at such a substantially reduced price so I guess that is another question to ask the retailer?    Are these amplifiers working okay and do their tubes need to be replaced?   Do these amplifiers come with any kind of a warranty?   What happens if they stop working after 30-60 days?   I am not a tube person so is 800 hours of demo use a reasonable amount?   How old are these amplifiers?  

@stereo5 said "That dealer has been trying to 'unload' those mono locks for over a year now".   This might explain the reduced sale price and would be a concern to me.  

Your post states you asked about the audition fee and there was no response (AFTER 2 weeks).  This is a MAJOR concern of why is the retailer not responding to a potential interested party.  It does not say good things about their customer service.  

IF you are really interested in these amplifiers, AND the charge to audition these amplifiers is 'reasonable', then I suggest you give them a listen.  The price is right so you maybe should give them an audition.  

HOWEVER, based on the ABOVE posts, several people have expressed various concerns about this transaction.   Based on my 'understanding' of the translation, the audition fee, the implied condition of these amplifiers, the retailer, etc., I have concerns about a possible purchase (IMHO) and suggest you do more research and investigating.   


 

Back when I was in the industry, and even more recently since then, I have experienced and heard stories of people going into shops ( by both the shop staff and the listener ), listening for hours, and then, the listener leaving, only to buy the auditioned products, elsewhere, likely for less, either new or used ( off of the internet, or another store ), leaving the store who did the demo, without a sale. This goes on...we all know it. The policies are there for a reason. And, it does rid of the actual tire kickers. Knowing the policies before you enter, will determine what you do. I feel bad for the brick and mortar stores today, as they are up against an invisible enemy, the internet. In this case, it was product that was packed up and boxed ( what I understood ). Should be no different than a restocking fee, as per Tekton, Schiit, and others. Not worth getting angry over. Make up your own mind.Enjoy, have a good day, and stay safe.

OP
Even after you confirmed in-store demo that I gleanwd from your well worded post, multiple replies assume otherwise.
Sheesh.
Personally the only demo I would consider valuable enough to pay for is in-home. Otherwise you can''t hear source, speakers and room synergy.
This dealer is really reaching.
Those types don't get any of MY money

smer319 

I'd like to come to your store for a look around, but it's gonna cost you.

Ok I looked at the gear. That’s not going anywhere for a demo without something, someone being pretty serious. THAT is a serious pair of amps... NO KIDDING... Probably cost 20-30 dollars in Electrical charges to get it warm enough to listen to.

To be real about it, you should go there to do the deal or NOT go at all.
I dealt with a WAREHOUSE in South SF, that was that way, wasn’t a demo fee as much as a, I had to open the shop fee. HUGE discount, demo and trade in stuff only. You went there knowing if you were gonna buy it or not.
I picked up a pair of VTL Wotans, for 6.5K, they had 3 pairs. They were taken in on an estate sale. 3 years old, a little under 40k a pair.
It was a 300.00 fee, just to look and make sure the valves were all there (another 3k from VTL factory for a set). AND use their forklift to load the heavy suckers. 3 sets of VMPS RM40s, at different times. 1/4-1/3 the price.

The VTLs were never taken out of the crate, never used..

Worth it for me..They have had some killer deals too, BUT not always a fee either. At least 4-5 sales people, different times, over a 10 year period. I guess they are still there..

I also remember, there were different areas, too. Different vendors, were staging their, used stuff or demos in a kind of Consortium, to save HIGH dollar floor space in the cities, SF central, Redwood City, ect. One stop shop, if you knew what you were looking for. This was South San... A lot lower rents.. and easier to load the REAL heavy stuff. NO HILLS!

Regards

I could understand it if the item is not on display and the seller has to perhaps acquire the product first or even just set it up just for that.   

Even then, one can just say no whenever vendor terms are not acceptable.

I never in my entire life paid a fee however today there are to many tire kickers out there.There is no set fee as this is a big ripoff i would buy nothing from that dealer.Good luck with that one.

Yup, know where this place is. Weird store layout. No rooms, just  gear everywhere, in an open floor plan. I'd only buy from there if it is something you know you want at the price you want to pay. Better get everything in writing too.

I hope this doesn't become a trend in other industries. Imagine going to a car dealer for a look see and test drive and being told, "Nah, it's gonna cost you to test drive this rust bucket."

All the best,
Nonoise

@mitch4t is talking about norms and best practices, here, not about "rights." FWIW.

Spend your $$$ in another store....this is plain ridiculous IMHO.

When you purchase products at retail prices, they are set up for you in the store ready for audition and also in home delivery and setup.
When we are selling DEMOS on products that retail at $60,000.00 USD for $16,995.00 then we have to charge a fee.
We have to do this as too many customers want to expand their hobby with no real desire or inclination to purchase. They burn 3-4 hours of time and make insulting offers. Just like you, our time is worth something. Charging a fee allows us to determine if you are serious. If you dont like the item, you can use the said fee to purchase something on the spot.

Sep-16-2020What is the inconvenience fee associated with an in-store demo...fully face masked, of course?

These are packed and put away. Can you tell me what kind of system would you want it demonstrated with ? Please call the store...Probably $500.00 which will be applied to purchase price of $16995.00

Charging someone to demo gear that they are selling is insane! The seller should accommodate you in every way possible, including sharing his or her expertise. There are many times when certain components do not pair well. On a different note the seller should ascertain the seriousness of the buyer if it is a private demo. I do private demos but I also ask questions about the gear the person has. If the person  has a Marantz receiver and wants to demo some MTRX/2 I would have reservations.

That dealer has been trying to unload those mono locks for over a year now.  I would run away as fast as I could. 

hgeifman..

I asked two weeks ago what the fee was and I haven't gotten an answer.