Get both.
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I am not totally sold on the Epoch yet. I would like to see what Grado is using for a stylus. I also will not spend more than $100 for a record and I have very few 100 dollar records. In order to get the performance out of a great recording you need a great record playing system. I put the record and the system in two entirely separate compartments. As was said above you need both.
The cartridge depends on the tone arm and the phono stage. |
I really appreciate all you guy’s thoughts! Very helpful for me. I admit, my system probably does not warrant a 12k cart based on the cost of the other components. It would be the most expensive piece. But, right or wrong, I’ve heard that it should It should be. Solypsa thanks for this recommendations! My settings consists of: Pass Int 60 amp Parasound JC 3+ phono stage VPI Classic 1 w/Transfig Axia (upgraded but not sure which tonearm upgrades it has) Volti Razz Speakers digital is: Innuos Zenith MK3 innuos Phoenix USB Ayre DB 9 DAC w/20 upgrade i have upgraded interconnect and power cables that are good. The speaker cable are probably the weakest they’re very old audio quest granite which sound pretty darn good compared to some of the cables I’ve tried all the other cables I’ve tried were not really pricey ones. For this discussion I’m sure it doesn’t matter about the digital set. But you know the digital sound is what I am comparing the analog to. I am really kind of torn on whether to put a lot of money in the analog versus just spending a reasonable amount on a better DAC because the prices of good records are so high. I just got back into stereo about a year ago so I don’t have a good collection of records. Streaming is so much cheaper by comparison! But analog seems so much easier on the ears for me at similar volumes to the digital.
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I just spent two days at the Capital Audiofest. On each of those days I spent 1-2 hours looking at and buying LPs. I ended up with about 20 new purchases (some brand new, some used). What struck me most was the astronomical prices for good used vinyl. $100 for an LP was not uncommon although that was about as high in price as I saw. Like Mijostyn, I am not a buyer of a $100 LP, but I can say that because I already have a large collection of vintage and new LPs, many of which, I now know, could be seen by someone else as costing $100 or more. Sheesh! |
the problem is not only the cost of great pressings, but the shoe leather it takes to find them. and how to know condition without buying 5 or 6 to find a quiet one. putting together a great collection of vintage early pressings is borderline impossible unless you can buy a collection already already curated. so buying a great cartridge and buying easier to source new and more available used is more real world for someone starting out. you still get great sound. but if given a choice, i would rather have great vintage original pressings and a modest cartridge than a great cartridge and new pressings. but it’s not a choice most of us can ever make. i would caution anyone jumping into the Tom Port 'Hot Stamper' cauldron blindly without first doing their homework. and knowing what is what takes time and effort. |
I only have 1 expensive record. It is Steely Dan Aja (Cisco) and came from discogs. They were asking 850 for an unopened copy, but I got a used copy, I think they labeled it mint with near mint cover, for 400. I really did it as an experiment to see if there was anything to quality in different pressings. It really is different. I can turn it up as loud as I want with no fatigue at all. And it is super quiet. Sometimes I do visit the hot Stamper site out of curiosity. Just the other day I saw a Led Zeppelin copy there for $2500! I won’t be getting one. |
I own probably a dozen reissues and over 1000 original vintage LPs from the 60s and 70s. To my ear the originals sound so much better than the re-issues but that’s just me. Having said that because this post is about cartridges I recently upgraded to an Ortofon 2M Bronze, and I am shaking my head at the amount of detail coming off of these old LPs. Background instruments, and singers and other detail I never knew existed. I’m not sure what would be gained by having anything better on my vintage Thorens, TD 145 and that cartridge was a bit less than 500 bucks. I would have to think the law of diminishing returns sets in fairly quickly as the cost starts to rise over this level. |
Given the level you have, experimenting with another cart and tubed phonostage will give another view of a "convincing presentation" The Parasound you use is known as a "cant go wrong’ SS unit. You might find the tubed flavor more pleasant. I use an old VPI Classic 1 also. It has many technical "flaws’ on paper, but set up properly, it can deliver the goods, relative to the sum of system. "I only have 1 expensive record. It is Steely Dan Aja (Cisco) and came from discogs" A $10.00 1977 AA-1006 or AB 1006 period pressing will easily sound convincing as any pricey "super reissue." Of course, this is subjective. The hard part is finding one unmolested. I am fortunate to have a neighborhood store with cheap "stampers’ I have mentioned before, Mr. Hot Stamper used to send his scouts to this store for those $3-500 "white hot stamper’ candidates. Now and then, I believe I find the very copy of what he describes in his super embellished write ups on them. Difference being, I paid somewhere between $1-20 bucks Steely Dan – Aja (1977, Santa Maria Pressing, Gatefold, Vinyl) - Discogs Steely Dan – Aja (1977, Terre Haute Pressing, Vinyl) - Discogs Cables and other audiophool stuff will only drain your wallet faster.
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You have a fairly balanced system. I am familiar with most of the gear you have. The problem is that the tonearm is the weak link if it is the VPI unipivot and you won't get the best out of a cartridge upgrade. The conundrum then becomes if you want to upgrade the analogue -then really you should start with a better TT/arm, otherwise you'll sink money. Simply installing the Axis on a Rega P10 for example would be a significant upgrade in my view, using the VPI as a trade in. The P10 should last you for years. Alternately with the Volti speakers, as good as the Pass is, you should try and audition some tube amps in my view - for example the Prima Luna integrated are very good. I think your digital might be a lot more listenable with tube amps driving the Volti's. EL34 based tube amps are what those speakers were designed around. |
@OP, the folks who put down the uni pivot is because it is too difficult for their level of mechanical knowledge to adjust it properly. I change carts back and forth often enough that I can get to fully satisfying results in an hour every time, any cart. Upgrade the cart, forget about those few hot stampers, you want every record to sound better. |
Last night, i pulled my very nice-sounding ART-9 MC cart, and put my Acutex M320 III STR cartridge in. I haven't listened to it lately, but after some adjustments with the settings on my Modwright SWP 9.0 Sig phono stage, I was amazed at hearing the best sounding music I've ever heard from my system. I don't know what I did differenly, but I was captivated by the extrordinarily great sound I was hearing. I know you can spend any amount you want to on a cartridge, but my Acutex only cost me around $90 a few years ago, yet deliverers mind-blowing sound (to my ears), on my middle-of-the-road system, but whatever you do, enjoy the music! Regards, Dan |
What an arrogant statement. Not in my case mate. I have listened to VPi unipivots for 30 years, set up a few, along with many other unipivots - Hadcock, Mayware, Audiocraft, and many others - still own a Naim Aro. It is the VPI unipivot that is the issue - it's not a great arm. It might meet your standards, it doesn't meet mine - and has nothing to do with set up. The Naim Aro or even an older Graham unipivot will leave it for dead. Lunacy to put a $5-12k cartridge on an average performing tonearm. Yes, it will sound better, but upgrading the tt & arm for the same budget will yield much more. |
Didn't mean to show arrogance, sorry for those offended. I see many posts of folks who don't even attempt to install a cart on a uni pivot and have to get a "professional" to do it for them and charge them multiple hours labor to do so. That's what I am referring to, if you ever want a cart to sound right to your ears, you must learn to install it yourself and know how to tinker with it since all the slightest adjustments will result in a different sound. If you don't learn that, your cart will always end up under performing. Carts always end up needing "tune ups", like anything else. Many folks end up disenchanted with their unipivot because of that lack of mechanical know-how. I personally am very pleased with working on my uni pivot since it is more challenging to get it right than other arms. Just me. |
+1 @dover I have witnessed this owning many VPI unipivot arms from the basic aluminum JMW 10.5, the 10” 3D with Valhalla wire, and two 12” 3DR. They are actually decent tonearms, but in hindsight I would never recommend putting a $5K+ cartridge on it because the arms will not get the most out of what the cartridge can provide. It doesn’t mean that the cartridges wont sound good on the arm, but anyone who does so is wasting their investment a bit. Case in point - I at first put a $9K My Sonic Lab Signature Gold cartridge on the 12” 3DR which was mounted on a Clearaudio Innovation Wood. It sounded good and was a notable upgrade to a slightly cheaper Air Tight PC-1s. But after the cartridge broke in, I upgraded the arm to a Tri-Planar U12. It was a night and day difference. The improvement in clarity and imaging, and the reduction in groove noise ans resonance made the sonics elevate multiple levels over any other cartridge upgrade I had before it. The moral of the story is that VPI tables and tonearms are very good, especially doe what you might be able to get them for, but there are other worthwhile areas of investment beyond an incredible cartridge, that can reap even larger gains. |
I can appreciate the importance of an arm and it has been very well explained by a few here. But thing is, if I had not fallen so much in love with streaming, I would probably consider it. But that ship has sailed. Even with over 2,000 vinyl, my analog rig listening time is now no more than 10%. Also10% on CD rig, meanin80% streaming. Point is, anyone on the fence between streaming and vinyl needs to take a real long look at it before investing. |
The question makes it seem like this is a binary choice. I want the best cartridge I can afford that mates with my arm and voices in my system gracefully. I've achieved that at no small cost. As to buying premium "audiophile" records to compensate for gear shortcomings, I just don't think that way. My focus is on making the average record sound good. Or as good as it can. Most of the material that's sold as premium audiophile has been recycled countless times. Yes, I have multiple pressings of some records. But my aim isn't just sonic "spectacularity," another Wowzer example to show off the system. This means I've plunged deeply into older records, older-sometimes still living performers- lately, been on a post-bop kick, and many of the OGs were issued during the mid-'70s which was not a high point for vinyl quality. I have the capability to effectively clean the records (I'm not buying molested copies) and flatten them if necessary. But to me, the notion that some fancy "audiophile" reissue is going to compensate for shortcomings in your playback system isn't an approach I would take. Even for evaluation purposes, I'd use a wider range of recordings than so-called "premium audiophile." The turntable, tone arm, cartridge, set up, phono stage and cables all make a difference in vinyl playback. Which is part of the reason it is a PITA. Tracking down records- quite fun. |
By the way, @hotei , one inspects the cork to (1) know that the wine you are being served is the wine you are paying for, (2) to get a slight whiff of an unpleasant smell instead of a snoot-full (if it’s off), and (3) to anticipate the experience of drinking a fine wine. In any case, it was a reasonable response to provocation. IMO Hysteve, I once bought a cartridge that was too good for the tonearm and too good for the table, against expert advice. It was a mistake. Table matters most, because every bit of bearing noise and motor noise gets transmitted into the cartridge. The tonearm is next; it's what holds the cartridge rigidly at the correct angles, and if anything is off, the cartridge will not sound its best. And then the cartridge wore out, probably prematurely. Next time around I did it right. My Koetsu responds to small adjustments - rarely requiring more than 7 minutes of arc. If your tonearm won’t do that, it doesn’t deserve a first class cartridge. IMO |
And I wouldn't spend on premium records until I was getting the most from what I already had. @whart has published the Bible on record cleaning - that's good use of money too. |
Thank you - I do agree with you that unfortunately with analogue setting up poorly is a common issue. When I had a shop in the 80's I was very surprised at how poorly most front ends were set up from what I regarded as experienced audiophiles. One major advance though is that today tools, manuals and in general product today are designed for easy setup, and info on how to is freely available. Comes back to that old chestnut - read the manual ( twice ) before setting up. |
I don't concern myself about the very best of the best ancillaries any longer, especially within HiFi, and ones that are used to enable a Source Materials Recorded Data to be replayed. I have found a standard that is satisfying for ancillaries for replaying the Vinyl LP, that I am content with. Anything else shown as an interest on this subject, is an expression of a curiosity and interest in having a new encounter. I find that a sufficiently purified Vinyl LP, when used for a replay, can offer a very impressive presentation with a Cart' in use, that is using a design and materials that are notably fit for the purpose. A certain design for a Cart' of a Particular Value, following a period of interrogation might prove to be the winner from a period of carrying out comparison demonstrations, but by what margin, will be one question, and at which increased cost for the purchase to achieve the margin of difference being detected. Working on the commonly seen notion, that a Cart' has a 1000 Hours of usage life, (which is being generous), a Cart' with a decent design and use of materials can produce a replay at approx' 70 cents - $1.50 per hour. The options for the value of a Cart' can quite easily escalate to approx' $4.00, $5.00, $8.00, $11.00, $15.00 per Hour of usage. There is one thing Guaranteed that is on offer, which is the Speedy depreciation of the Cart's Value. If you have put 300-400 Hours on a Cart' and lose 50% of the Value as a resale, that means the derivative of the 1000 Hour calculation has an increased cost associated per hour of usage. It really is each to their own, on how one spends on a product they have a desire to own, especially such a luxurious purchase, such as a Cartridge. I have a Vinyl LP purchased not too long ago, that has appreciated in value Tenfold if using Discogs as a reference. I have Vinyl LP's that have increased in Value between Twenty to a Hundredfold, from my collection produced over a much-extended period of time, if using Discogs as a reference. The Vinyl LP is certainly going to be a very much enjoyed product when used as a medium to replay recorded music. In certain cases, the medium in use might also be appreciating in Value. The Appreciation might not be of any benefit in the short term, but there may become a day when it is beneficial to oneself. If one decides to reimburse their coffers through selling, the appreciated value, if realised, will certainly with immediate effect, help offset against the depreciation that a Cartridge has been heavily impacted by, as a result of the needing to own one to experience the recording medium being replayed. |
I also think there should be synergy between the cartridge and the other components. I have Revel bookshelf speakers which tend to be a little "laid back". Using a Grado, I found the sound very smooth in the mids, but the bass and treble were muted. Same with an Ortofon, although more balanced. I then tried an old AT with a NOS Shibata tip and it all came together. When I had my previous Paradigms, the AT would cause fatigue after one record side. I also must add that my system is far more plebian than most on this blog and all of the cartridges I mentioned were MM's that were a notch above entry level, |
hysteve I upgraded my cartridge from a Kiseki Purpleheart NS to a Grado Aeon and am delighted by the improvement in sound froma wide range of records. A much more detailed, richer sound with a wonderful ambience - feeling of space as elements are much more clearly seperated. Just be careful to avoid having any transformers near the cartridge as it will hum! |
I haven't had the pleasure of hearing an Epoch3 or Aeon3, but the Statement3 has taught me a lesson. With an output of 1mV it can be used as an MM or as an MC as far as the phono stage is concerned. I found it decidedly boring connected as an MM both with a Quad 24p and with the NuVista Vinyl. But as an MC with the resistive loading set low at 100Ω it comes to life and is really giving my London Reference a challenge. |
My "premium" cartridge makes every LP sound better, even the crappy mid-80's pressings. Old 1960's folkways sound great too. A good cleaning and a good cartridge really make a difference. But a great turntable is a real plus. Having said that, some of the newer audiophile pressings are sounding superb. Really black backgrounds. Love It! |
Based on pindac’s comments, my Transfig Atria is already worn out! I got it used from a family member already on the VPI and it’s probably 8 yrs old. He’s an avid listener too. I didn’t know carts had such limited lifespan. However, the lower freq is the only issue my ears detect in the Axia. Bass punch not as good as the digital side or even as good as the vintage Technics table I set aside with a Grado silver MM. I’ll do some research on cart wear and the exact makeup of my VPI tonearm. |
"I got it used from a family member already on the VPI and it’s probably 8 yrs old. He’s an avid listener too." A fresh stylus may be all that’s needed. Bass punch should be at least on par with your other sources, but it is cart model dependent. Some are more prevalent than others. I wouldn’t get too caught up with all the comments on reality of VPI’s "inferior" design. As mentioned, I use the same model, and there is no shortage of the spectrum low to high. For reference, I have heard plenty of uber setups throughout the years. And yes, an unmolested period copy for $3 bucks of most anything can sound spectacular thru the VPI Classic, but setup and phonostage flavor(SS or tube)can be a game changer. I use an all-tube setup.
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OP, A common dilemma these days. I have equal sounding analog and digital ends. They were of equal cost (see my profile)… ~$45K each. I have a long history with analog. And a collection of 2,000 mostly pristine albums and audiophile releases I have collected over + 50 years. I don’t play my analog rig much… but it is fun when I do, or to go to the used record store to find some hidden gems. If I was doing this today without a large vinyl collection I would double my investment on the digital side and know I was on the future proof side. Unless, you really like the nostalgia and fun of cartridges, tone arms and the like. Also, for most of my life my phono stage has been a real drag on my system. One needs a really good one to get the most out of your system. |
i believe in buying the best pressings you can afford of the records you love most. if that's a hot stamper or whatever, RIP your wallet. in my experience a quality pressing makes itself known on even the most modest systems, whereas an expensive cartridge might have a huge, or very little impact - based on all the gear that follows it. just my .02c should also add that the best analog rig i've ever heard (rosewood koetsu on a feickert) made everything sound better, but the better pressings still revealed themselves
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All of the above😉. You won't appreciate the Hot Stampers without the cart and rig to bring out the difference. And the money just keeps rolling out the door🙄. Beware there's a thousand ways to select and optimize a cart, tonearm, turntable combination; research and demos prior to spending will serve you well. |
