Burn in vs perception

@rockadanny - I've owned a number of pairs of speakers; some will sound fine right out of the box, but most I've had sound pretty nasty to start off and sound the way they should after 150 - 200 hours. 

IME I've found burn-in to be a real thing, specifically with some ICs and tubes. Cannot say for sure about speakers because I've only owned two pair, one demo and one used. So, both already had hours on them by the time I acquired.

@ozzy62 - in your case, I'd say both the amp's electronics and the tubes need breaking in; in my experience, tubes mostly sound at their best after at least 100 hours. You've probably got a good bit of improvement left to look forward to....

I am still in the honeymoon stage with a new 300B amp. As of now I have about 40 hours on it. Last night I could clearly hear that something was different. The dynamics just opened up in a big way. The sound out of the box was very good, but maybe a little tight. Last night the swing factor was on full display, just sounded like a more powerful amp in every way.

Capacitor Burn-In

"This description may be leading many to wonder if they’ve been buying scrap? But the picture isn’t that bad. The capacitors are generally OK from a correct (or near correct) value point of view. It’s just that the quality of dielectric is wanting at switch on. The quality of dielectric affects the leakage performance, and although the circuit will function correctly, by which I mean it will establish the correct voltages, the sound quality at switch on clearly isn't that which the product gives after a number of weeks use.

Therefore a piece of high performance hand built equipment simply will not sound as intended at first. It may not sound as intended for a number of weeks. The sound can go through changes as one capacitor comes on-stream while the others are still getting there

"We're excited about our burn-in process. Since adding it as part of the manufacturing process, our 60-day satisfaction guarantee refunds have gone from roughly 6% to less than 2%. The comments from customers went from, “They're good, but a bit restricted sounding,” to, “Man, these things rock!”

No, we’re not kidding, the difference is night and day. That’s how we hear it, and that’s what end users are telling from all over the world."

Zu Audio On Their Burn-In Process

Okay, well, I am experiencing burn in / settling in a speaker cable. Cardas Cygnus long run, 6m. Replaced Wireworld Equinox. Mc to SF speakers.
 

When I first installed the cable, I was so excited to hear my improved system. It sounded awful (closed, dull, grainy treble), and I wanted to send the cables back, but that wasn’t even an option because they were a custom length. I was assured by Cardas to give it time 200-300 hours. I was skeptical. 
 

Well, I’m probably at 100-150 hrs now, and the system is sounding pretty extraordinary (great sound stage, smooth treble, dynamic). So have I just gotten used to the change—perhaps, but I’m pretty sensitive to any change in my system, and it sounds very good now. And getting noticeably better each day. I’ve read that cables need a settling period to charge the dialects surrounding the copper, so maybe there is a real reason for this, or maybe it is my changed perspective, but I don’t thinks so. Perhaps, with this cable settling in, I’m for the first time understanding what good PRaT is. 

I honestly just put FM on or hit repeat for a while and consider it good to go.   I'm sitting here listening to a pair of well broken in Sonus Faber with my new Cyrus i7XR. Amp.     

Sure it sounds better than day 1.  I'm using a pair of speakers  better suited than when I unboxed it.   Speakers are more or less in the proper position now .... and my ears have grown more accustomed to the change in sound.  I really don't think the amp changed ...  it was clear and detailed right out of the box 

I postulate, however fatuously, that "noise" in audio systems can be akin to "noise" in wetware, and that an audio system in all its total parts talks back and forth to itself until an improved unity and flow is achieved... or not.

People Who Affect Electronics

A topic hotter than a cables and cones thread.  

If you haven't heard distinct changes in the sound of audio hardware from new to maturity you haven't purchased enough new hardware.  

I have long believed it is your ears acclimating to the new sound.   In the case of speaker surrounds I believe that is valid but it is a short break in.   Is it even enough of a change to perceive?    Not sure about that. 

Example,   I just picked up an integrated amp.    I set it up in my main listening room.    First with my Forte and then with my Sonus Faber Concerto.   

The Forte sounded really good.  I switched to the Concerto.    Completely different presentation,   but it sounded good.   Thin compared to the Forte.    It took a while for my ears to accept the new sounds they were hearing.   Better ?  Worse?    No....just different 

I own a complex headphone with two different cells one dynamical the other one Electrostatic...

The dynamic cell come full blown after a warm-in period of 10 to 15 minutes...

The difference is not illusory...No one hallucinate each day at the same hour and only about deep bass and bass... 😊

Then if complex components need warm-in , it did not ask for great brain work to deduce that NEW component which had never worked BEFORE as a WHOLE may ask for an adjustment time which can be audible with some components more than with others ...This is called break-in...

And those "objectivist" claiming that this is  mere placebo or subjective impression of stupid audiophiles need to read about PERCEPTION and his relation to phenomenon, Cartesian dualism is dead , and some Illusions are more real and meaningful than some material object... Anyway break-in is a physical observed and probably measurable phenomenon ...

An immaterial perceived  rainbow is more powerful most of the times in his effect on us than a grain of sand...

«What if this grain of sand is in my eye?» --Groucho Marx 🤓

OCD Hi Fi Guy On Break In

What is the basis for the belief that a mechanical device, speakers especially, would change over time? If they require break in for the first 200 hours for optimal sound, and it’s interesting that it’s always a round number in the 100’s, what is preventing it from continuing to change over the next few hundred hours and so on, continuing to change to failure? Is there really a “bathtub” curve for flexion of the suspension material, a’la MTBF? 

This isn’t like breaking in an engine in which the bearing surfaces are getting smoother and hence experiencing less friction improving performance. This is a flexible material that is being flexed and stretched. A change in those properties would seem to require a chemical or molecular change, not simply usage. 

i believe the only thing that is “breaking in” is your perception. 

Speakers Definitely loose some of their "rigidity" after a couple hundred hours...some sooner , but they ALL need to "break in" to sound to their fullest.

Thanks @rshank64 for your sharing your experiences. Mine are pretty much the same, but I don’t have a pc that cost more than $400. 

@rshank64 

Thanks for sharing your listening test.  I am actually not surprised at the results.  The only times I have suspected hearing a difference in power cables is when switching to a much larger gauge cable.  Even then, I did not try a structured test like yours so I cannot confirm whether I would be able to select the larger vs. smaller cable with reliability.

If you are still curious about your cables, you might look at this thread.  If you check with Amir at ASR, and offer to send him one of the power cables, along with a summary of your listening test methods and results, I suspect he would test the cable for you.

Good threat. There are (mechanical ) things that need break in. But perhaps most break-in in electronics/audio happens in our minds which are highly adaptive, and our desire to be satisfied of what we have (except that it is virtually impossible to be adopted to a really bad sound). Finally, what God helps us to find our satisfaction. 

@curiousjim 

Has anyone bought two power cords and left one in the box and used the other one for a few months?  Then pulled out the unused pc and done a A/B test?

 

curiousjim

Yes, I have done this exact power cable A/B test to test the theory!

I bought several mains cables from a well known cable supplier. These were 10 times the price of my original cables and had many rave reviews. So I was confident that these will sound great.

These were very well made cables with high grade plugs. When I first connected these, I thought the sound appeared to have improved! but I wasn't sure! Problem was powering down the system, switching cables, powering up and remembering what the previous cables sounded like!!

I am an engineeer so I decided to design a test jig.  I bought several IEC sockets, rocker switches and made myself a test box. The two rocker switches were wired to allowed me to switch any of the two cables in or out of the circuit. When both switches are ON then both mains cables are running in parallel. This enabled me to switch between any two cables almost instantaneously from my listening position without powering down the equipment.

With CDs in my Oppo 205 player running on repeat  and able to switch cables without powering down surely I should hear any differences. 

Unfortunately, I heard no difference, good or bad!

I also did a burn-in for 4 weeks as recommended by the manufacturer. Still I heard no difference! 

I spoke to manufacturer regarding my test, They suggested I may need a longer burn-in!

I did a longer burn-in as these cables had all these good reviews so I was happy to give it more time but still heard no difference in sound.

I also tested another same out of the box new cable against the now burned-in cable. No difference!!

By now the cable return window had closed.

May be I need a 600Hr burn-in. My mind keeps telling me that these are expensive well built cables and should sound better.
May be they do sound better but I just can't hear it! May be if I had not done the A/B test they would have sounded better in my mind. May be if I keep going  one day I will hear the difference.

Burn-in or perception, you decide.

But hey, these cables fo improve the appearance of  system so all is not lost.

These kind of threads remind me of "oil" threads on my motorcycle forums and to sound cliche, opinions are like a*******, everybody has one.

And, if you want to believe there is an actual difference in sound, there could be, the mind works in mysterious ways. (cliche again)

I've had numerous different pieces of equipment over the years, never could tell any difference.

Agree 100% mechanical movement, materials flexing, etc. No imagination there. 
 

Cheers 

I can't speak for cables, but some speakers and headphones most assuredly do need some break in time; there is nothing psychological about the difference between some headphones right out of the box and the same headphones 100 hours later if the only listening in the meantime was done by the headphone stands. I've had speakers that sounded great right out of the box, and I've had some where the different frequencies sounded like they'd never met each other for the first several weeks, but when that changed, that changed fast. Can't make any blanket statements. 

Has anyone bought two power cords and left one in the box and used the other one for a few months?  Then pulled out the unused pc and done a A/B test?

I haven’t, but would be interested in hearing the results from someone who has.

Just Curious.

According to my loudspeakers owner's manual (2-way cone type) recommendation: They should be "run-in" for a minimum of 200 hours prior to any critical listening.  I found that they required at least 300 hours before the magic began.  Fortunately, my preamplifier has a white noise generator input, which helped out.  Not only did the loudspeakers benefit but my interconnects and loudspeaker cables as well.  Really, it did.

This applies to loudspeakers that have magnets, surrounds, crossovers, etc.  True full-range ESLs would be excluded as they have none of these components.  

I prefer the term "run-in" to "burn-in" as I try not to let the "smoke out."  LOL

 

1971gto455ho

365 posts

06-23-2023 at 12:27pm 

Actually waiting at emergency would be more beneficial lol

Classy…builds up credibility. 

Break-In Theory

Actually waiting at emergency would be more beneficial lol

Cheers 

Anyone waiting for that magical 100 hour mark on their Duelund tinned copper wire, or the 150 hour mark on their Rhodium plated banana connectors surly believes that break in is imperative. 

@falconquest

The conspiracy-minded would say the manufacturer is simply peddling snake-oil and taking advantage of people dumb enough to believe in fairy tales... or something to that effect -- the main point being that they are too smart to be so easily "scammed".

Personally, I’ve heard new cables begin to change for the better over time, then revert to sounding worse before again resuming their earlier "changing-for-the-better" behavior which lasts until they stop changing, altogether. When I reported this to the shop, they said, in essence, "Yes; that’s what happens".

Some here will assert it’s all in my imagination but that won’t change my mind, any more than what I have to say will change their perspective.

No doubt the OP meant well, but personally I think such polarizing topics are a waste of time and energy.

The bottom line: you are the one listening to your system -- do the research but in the end, trust your ears. 

A raft of sea lions must have made their way here from some melting ice shelf, pursued by orcas. 

Conflating  a power line to a speaker cable is just a red herring with its own distinct odor. Small fluctuations in a small wire can detract from its intended purpose. The scale is, after all, quite small but still victim to undesired effects. The argument of something being too small to be of any concern is specious, at best.

Next thing you know, someone will say if you can't actually see it, it can't be that big a deal.

All the best,
Nonoise

Components are built to spec and good systems are tested. They are designed to last for a specified MTTF, which is typically some factor longer than the warranty, just to give the component a low probability of failure. If they weren't and the component failed, then manufacturers would be on the hook for replacement. The highest end audio typically has a higher MTTF.  Burn-in is component deterioration and would not be expected in high end audio for a reasonably long period. This deterioration might be pleasing to some, but that perception is 100% subjective and would be fleeting.

@tonywinga

I do have the GTO, a convertible 4 speed. Original parts aside, I installed the modified 455HO engine plus drive train and chassis upgrades. I’ve speed and modern, comfortable-handling win-win.

If "burn-in" wasn't a thing then why would my cable manufacturer include instructions on what to expect as the cables "burn-in"? Why would they provide instructions as opposed to just saying, plug-in and enjoy!

recklesskelly

found another Sealinoing, Sealion in the GTO guy. 

Yup, @recklesskelly. These folks are cluttering the forum.

Btw- if you really have a 1971 GTO 455HO, I respect that.

If you don’t, please change your username.

@cleeds found another Sealinoing, Sealion in the GTO guy. 

Still amounts to useless information as to the subject at hand that being audio. No one said anything about extreme voltage / amperage such as down wires from transformer on a pole. And finally, if retired, my guess is there are a few managers out there that have removed the earbuds. 

And to you sir, kindly explain what this wire electrical phenomenon has to do with audio ?

Well, for starters audio uses current/voltage to reproduce sounds.  With wires.

That’s ok.  I dealt with the technically illiterate throughout my career.  My favorite were managers who would solicit opinions from everyone about a technical matter.  They either felt the correct technical answer or else they determined the correct technical answer by a majority vote.  Almost always wrong although statistically, a group might sometimes vote the correct answer.

And to you sir, kindly explain what this wire electrical phenomenon has to do with audio ? I hazard to say absolutely nothing ! But I do thank you for the Humorous opportunity, have a nice day 😂

Class D...Leave them on 24/7.....Also people say " Don’t do serious listening until your equipment has been running at least 30 minutes. I can attest to that. ALSO....Warm your speaker coils up at least 30 min. before serious listening, Steve Deckert professes that the speaker coils need to warm up and EXPAND before the speaker can reach it’s full potential. I can also attest to that.....

@erik_squires Good to know, thanks.  If I decide to put them in service I'll power them up a few days in advance and set the circuit in the power regenerator they're plugged into to stay powered up 24/7.  Thanks again.

Control systems for multi-million dollar installations don't need "burn in".  All those sensors, pickups, wires, displays, and controls appear to work just fine at start-up (unless they are bad components or mis-installed).

There may be interference, ground loops, bad connections, but never has the answer been "Just wait a week or two and it will start working properly once it burns in".

Same with aircraft or your new vehicle, especially EVs or hybrids.

Something mechanical may need "break in".   May, it depends.

There are studies out there that show the effects of conventional speaker/driver mechanical break in.  The differences are small, but measurable.  I won't link them, do your own research.

I also do not believe the Pope is infallible.

Most of my speakers and electronics sounded good right out of the box, And any break-in was hardly noticeable.  That being said, some brands of wires can take an eternity to sound right. I bought a mid tier Analysis Plus interconnect that I almost returned, and in one day, WHAMMY!  

Hi @jdougs  They were based on stock ICEpower 250 ASP units.  I didn't have to play music, just leave them powered on for a couple of days.

The story I really found intriguing was the gentleman who claims at high volumes the wires in his system move. Perhaps it was critical listening and his chair was electric, damn it’s hard to find people to A/B that theory.

Cheers

I never put much stock in electronics burn in until I got a pair of PS audio M700s. After the first 3 days, I wanted to send them back to the hell from whence they came. There was lots of blare and glare in the upper mid/lower treble range. It was overwhelming and made me wince to listen. But I had 30 days to decide so I let them play. On about the 5th day I noticed a change and by the 7th day they had really balanced out and sounded very smooth and clean and just pleasant. I kept them and have really enjoyed them since. I now believe in amplifier break in (at least for the PS Audio M700s). I don’t think this was just a case of psychoacoustic (my brain) break in. I think the amps changed (for the better).

The moving parts should be greased regularly.

@mrskeptic ...Yup.