True! I was listening yesterday to one of the first all-digital rock albums Peter Gabriel's Security. I had the original CD in a vintage 16-bit player and was amazed by the vividness of the sound quality! I felt what I was hearing was the master such was the explosiveness of the transients and the strong rhythmic drive of the bass. Shock the Monkey never sounded better!
Audiophilism is a hobby
This post grew out of another discussion on music vs. sound. According to a poll taken in that discussion, it is clear most A’goners claim they listen to their rigs primarily for the music. Although I don’t doubt the truth of that, I maintain that much of the listening is as a hobby, with music being a very important component. I’m not saying we can’t be profoundly moved by the music but rather that a lot of our enjoyment comes from the sheer sound emitted from our speakers. Great music is of course a vital part of the experience, but with all the manipulations we do with our systems, we are fascinated by the idea of sound in itself as a hobby.
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That’s true. We all have different sensitivities and needs from our systems in order to be able to get a visceral feel from the music. We’re all unique in that regard....my wife and girls are just as happy with a crappy stock car radio, but I rarely listen to it,,,,it sounds like noise to me. Many of us are fascinated by all the sciences involved with what makes the gear tick, and/or what’s required of the gear to allow us to get past the physics of the gear and lost in the music. It is indeed a "sub-hobby" within the audiophilia world, and it can be a very diverse journey by itself. I suspect sub-hobbies are a part of many hobbies. |
It was not really a hobby for me to have a really good sound experience, It was a life or death question almost, a passionnate obsession. Because i was retired and i had time more and more to listen to music, i was not happy with a mediocre sound on all acoustics aspects..
Then my hobby self transformed from listening the music to listening my system...😁 Not a pleasant experience at all. because this focus may kill musical enjoyment .😁
Then without being conscious of it i begun to read about "tweaks"... At first minerals and quarz tweaks ... Then i explore all minerals effects on sound... i bought many stones... It was more fun than changing cable and more instructive...😊
Then i explored vibrations and resonance controls in my non satisfying 9 headphones of many types... I succeeded in modifying them all for the better ... But i was not satisfied...I takes speakers experiments anew after selling my Tannoy which were too big and after few trying experiences with few brand names i settle for the best Mission speakers. I was not happy with them either anyway...😁 Then the real hobby begun, i read about acoustics concepts in scientific articles and few books and this inspired my set of tempting new experiments... Each new concepts inspired me for a new experiment. I discovered my new hobby : acoustics experiments in my dedicated room full time each day... This last 2 years... I used a balance of reflective-absorbing- and diffusive surfaces and devices... All homemade for cost reason ... 😁 I used secondary but very powerful devices at low cost as a grid of Schumann generators.. Ionizers too ...My own shielding device for cables and gear and speakers... I used a very huge grid of tuned by ears and hands 100 Helmoltz resonators at the end of the process... Size of them and their parts being critical, and i used specific location distribution in the room ... The grid was like a snake head and tail near each of the speakers drivers and around the room and near my listening position. i used a foldable screen (wood one) with the right surface materials as an acoustic lens ... In short at the end my soundfield was ambiophonic, holographic detailed as headphone with completely out of the head soundstage ... All my headphones were like trash can compared to this... For the first time i listened to the original recording acoustics trade off choices of the recording engineer in so much details that differences betwwen albums were stunning... Even bad albums were interesting because i could hear the acoustics original choices in my room as if i was there, it works specially well with many well recorded one ... My room was no more a nuisance or an impediment ...
Then i loose my room ... And my speakers ...😂
I was so sad i quit audiogon for a year...I had nothing to say anymore... 😂
I came back after extensive experiment on a select headphone i never optimize completely before and which was promising.... It takes me 6 months working on it : the AKG K340 the only world hybrid with an acoustic set of resonators inside... very hard for me to understand its working i even read the Dr. Gorike patent 😊...It was not easy to optimize it and make it shine... But i succeed3ed and this headphone now gave me a speaker like sound "outside of the head" if the recording is made in Great Hall or church or well done in studio...
But i wanted speakers too ... The problem i did not have money as usual for buying costly good one... The only one i had was the one i hated for 12 years since i bought them. They had universal good reviews but were trash to my ears i never used them for music.😁 But acoustics and Helmholtz helped me ...😊 Speakers are resonators and with a porthole they are perfect Helmholtz resonators... But Why the porthole designers present us with a neck of zero lenght ? For marketing and esthetical reason not acoustic reasons ... 😁 Some creative designers use internal labyrinthic porthole... This inspired me ... Then i modified them by adding a complex bundles of straws of different size behind inside the porthole from 3 feet lenght to few inches with slight variation in diameter... i used my ears as for my room resonators for the tuning...the fun part... The improvement were going from trash to TOP speakers with 80 hertz instead of 50 hertz now ... no frequencies bad interaction ...A timbre natural and detailed... A soundfield encompassing which beat all my headphones save the mighty AKG K340 modified which go from 25 hertz and is my first audiophile tool of choice now... But the tweeter guide wave form i modified it too... At the end i also tune the speakers with damping load, vibrations/resonance materials under them and around them a shield of my own design.... others homemade tweaks too with min erals and shumann cheap generators... i designed them for near listening in a dedicated acoustic corner of my basement... It was perfect ... At the end i could listen music on them and they beat almost my past speakers or rival them on many acoustics aspects... Think about it : low cost active modified chinese speakers : M-Audio AV40
Lesson : I had learned acoustics, i did not need other hobby now save listening music 5 hours each day....I walk , cycle and read ...
Acoustics rules audio not price tags ...
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100% agree with that. While I admit I lost site of the music on more than one occasion on this trip, ultimately the whole journey has led me to place I’m very happy to be, and I really don’t regret how I got here. what I learned, the sweat equity, or the excursions involved. I suppose we all have a different map, and a different destination. Happy trails! |
Another dimension to this discussion is appreciating some music or artists because of how good their music sounds. Not my gear, but the recording quality. In 2017 I came across a local news article about a young female recording engineer who was up for a Grammy. So I listened to the album mostly out of curiosity. I immediately fell in love with the sound of the record and by the end of the album I was in love with the music and artist. The album was Undercurrent by Sarah Jarosz. After listening to it obsessively, I found it was not her debut album but her fourth. As I went back through her earlier records, there was that same beautiful soundscape and voice. She's now my favorite artist,and just released her 7th album. I also discovered that Sarah's recording engineer cut his teeth working with Allison Krause, so it all made musical sense. All of this musical joy just from curiosity about sound. It's happened before (Buddy Miller) and will likely again. So in that sense sometimes I listen just for sound and discover music I love. I also routinely listen to records that win Engineering Grammys as potential music I might like. |
Get the hires studio master of his album "Us", put it through your hires dac and listen to "digging in the dirt".
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@mashif : Buddy Miller! Buddy has been my favorite music producer, band leader (for Emmylou Harris), singer, and guitar-stylist for a number of years now. His productions also bristle with the kinetic energy of live music (many are recorded live, with the entire band and singer captured at the same time), recorded in various rooms in his Nashville 2-story Craftsman house.
Thanks for the heads up on Sarah, who I have somehow missed. I’ll get the Undercurrents album and work my way back.
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Thanks @mashif, I look it up. I recently saw Buddy’s pal Jim Lauderdale live, just he and his guitar in a medium-sized bar in Portland. Last time I saw him was at Pappy & Harriets in Pioneer Town, close to Joshua Tree (I was living in Palm Desert, about an hour away). The first time was when he replaced Gurf Morlix as Lucinda’s bandleader, singing harmony and playing acoustic rhythm guitar on the Car Wheels tour.That was a quarter-century ago! Playing lead guitar on that tour was Kenny Vaughan, now in Marty Stuart’s Fabulous Superlatives, imo the best band in the world. Buddy and Julie never make it up to the Northwest (neither does Marty Stuart), and I’m dying to see them on stage. Marty too!
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I'm guessing that most of us have some favorite cuts that we use to measure the performance of our system (s). When we hear new things in the music or have it presented in a different way that seems more pleasing or realistic then we get a satisfying measure of pleasure. Because we enjoy this feeling so much we continue on the path until that experience can be achieved again (and again). Call it a kind of obsession or perhaps call it a journey. Either way I personally have no regrets and still enjoy the quest now some 50 years. |
Julie is the writer. Buddy is the producer. Neither could do it alone. I love all Sarah’s albums but Build Me Up From Bones probably tops the list. The new one is infectious and brilliant, but more commercial. Not the free flowing sound of the others, but I think she deserves to have some hits and make a living. |
@mashif Probably essential but he is also a musician not just a producer… if you look past the fraction you will find a play on the turn of phrase “ better half “…. Yes, let’s hope for some commercial success for Sarah ;-) |
"Great music is of course a vital part of the experience, but with all the manipulations we do with our systems, we are fascinated by the idea of sound in itself as a hobby." Unless you sitting in front of a live performance without any amplification, the music is being manipulated. All the music we hear has been recorded, molded, shaped, mixed according to someones ears that are not are own. Lets face it, IMHO everyone listens to music using a ratio of sound & music. It's hard to have on without the other. I mean if you love going on a road trip, you gotta have a means to an end. So how do you hit your happy trails? Thumbing, biking, riding a motorcycle, driving your car, RV, or OHV. Heck, or even cruising on a Greyhound bus (You can't say you've lived a full life without riding on a Greyhound at least once). Your ride is the equivalent to the "hobby" to listening to music. How does that old saying go - the journey is the reward? |
@elrod ....*S* Have enjoyed all of those ’transport modes’ ’cept for the OHVs’...adding boats of sail, motors, paddles....aircraft; 'copters, gliders thru liners.... ...although re the latters, never had the compulsion to jump out of one of those in flight, ’chute or no....🤪 Prefer a certain 'stability' in my non-stationary shuffles... Some of the ’better excursions in music’ haven’t required getting my butt out of a chair, and have on some included some ’in flight’ additions of ’adult enhancements’....but susspect not being ssolitaire in that sssuspicion....;) But, Yes,,,,,Most of the fun Is ’getting There’....and the ’exercise’ just make one hunger for ’more of dat DAC, pul-leze...’ 👍😎😏😈 (Fan of sibilance in speech and the silent space of typed trivial 'transports'....sounds 'n stereos, not so mucch.....) |
Wow, staying on Audiogon is paying off. 😊 I’ll get Blue Heron Suite and Build Me Up From Bones, and take it from there. I’ve seen Sarah’s name mentioned numerous times over the years, but just never connected with her. Now if I could get people to listen to Iris DeMent, I’d feel like I’ve made a difference.
For those who haven’t heard Julie Miller, here’s a rather disturbing video about her. Do artists have to be tortured to be genius? Going on the evidence of Julie and Lucinda, apparently so.
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The assumption or theory that paying attention to your gear can have a negative effect on how you feel about music seems ridiculous. If that's the case you need therapy. As a long time musician I can create music (the absolute sound?...hmmm) myself without my hifi rig (dozens of guitars, mandolin, ukulele, drums, bass...blah blah). The joy of this hobby is taking the reproduction of great recordings and having fun with them by making them sound as good as you think is necessary. My relatively modest system sounds astonishingly good and once in a while I improve it. I Recently added a Schiit Loki Max having no idea how much fun it would be (I sorta knew as I have a couple of Lokis)...I recommend this thing to anybody...but you MUST add "chicken head" knobs to it for even more fun. |
+1 @hilde45
We figured in a previous thread that there less than a million audiophiles in the US and of that group only a small number care enough to post about it on internet sites. Attempting to deny a love of sound on this site is akin to attempting the requirement to breathe oxygen. So why the angst? There are those who feel some guilt about the tired old canard that they enjoy reproduced sound more than the actual musical content, that they may be just as happy listening to sounds of trains, or voice sans music. If we enjoy the nuances of the ways that different gear reproduce the music that we love, and are willing to pay to appreciate those nuances, there is nothing wrong with that. People wear $5K watches because they appreciate the craftsmanship involved, when they could just get the time from a much cheaper watch or their cell phone. They drink expensive wine when they can get Kirkland, and expensive autos when a Toyota will perform the same transportation function. Why do audiophiles feel guilty about their hobby.? Do car, watch and wine lovers spend time trying to justify dedication to their hobbies? I am genuinely wondering |
Sometimes, I'm just happy hearing music coming from an Echo in my bedroom. Sometimes, hearing poorly recorded or reproduced music distracts me from the content. Sometimes, I will only listen to well recorded and produced music on my main system. Sometimes, I'm happy listening to MP3 level streams from Pandora. I think it all depends on my general well being and the extent my OCD is kicking in. |
I only enjoy my rig if I love the music being played. I mostly stream Qobuz and every week I cruise the new selections. I try new artists I haven't even heard of and new hi-rez selections that I know. Hit or miss on the unknowns, maybe one in ten that I play all the way through. I'll stick those in my favorites file. |
We say "music" when we mean "recordings." We can buy "sheet music," but it won't play itself. So we acquire recorded performances of that music. Some of these recordings are lousy -- the conductor has an idiosyncratic interpretation that we can't stand; the mix is unlistenable, etc. Some recordings are pleasing. And maybe one is sublime, from performance to pressing. Same "music," different recordings. You want music? Hire a band to play in your capacious listening room. Me, I'll take their magnificent studio recording of that same music. |
I haven't read all the comments throughout this thread. So, if this point (if it is one) has already been alluded to, my apologies! Although probably applicable, I've always had a bit of difficulty accepting the term or concept of "hobby" for what audiophiles are preoccupied with. It seems, to me, that the common denominator in this or what is at the core of what all audiophiles do is the visceral love of music. That's what kicks it all off! The term or concept of "hobby, I think, probably applies more to those who are constantly or frequently "upgrading", swapping out components and/or tweaking their sound systems in search of that elusive holy grail of the "best" sound fidelity. For those, however, who achieve levels of satisfaction with their sound systems that they can live with for considerably longer periods of time and, thereby, "upgrade" much less frequently, even when they can afford it, I think are more lovers of music than hobbyists. Does that make sense? |
I have characterized our pursuit as a "hobby" for a long time. I don't think it's fundamentally different than someone who plays Magic the Gathering, collects autotomotons, sings in a community choir, or restores vintage automobiles. For those of us who still listen to physical media our hobby has 2 dimensions. We collect and curate our equipment but more importantly we collect and curate our music. I can get goosebumps from listening to one of my favorite tracks on a boom box. But to hear the dynamics, frequency range, and imaging realism on my system is thrilling. Sort of like driving a really fast sports car around the track. Hobby is the best word I can use to describe what I'm doing. |
This estimate is probably off and the number is a lot higher, imo. The younger audiophile is a "home theater" guy, with a HT setup, spatial headphones, etc. I know quite a few of them in my city. They view audio as a multitasking system for their music, movies and games. Their setups tend to sound shockingly good and in many cases may beat the daylights out of some of the $$$$ channel based purist systems around here. The older lads here probably have little to no idea about the above mentioned, play games, etc. Purist stereo rigs my be a dying breed, but, the above mentioned is not. If these uppity audio brands don’t repurpose themselves a bit, they will be closing shop soon enough. The fact that AV forums have skyrocketing memberships and sites like Agon have dwindling membership should be initial proof.
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For those who say they don’t understanding the issue or “the angst,” it is thus: As advantageous as high audio fidelity is, the processes by which the music lover achieves such is very often deleterious to actually loving the music. It’s hard to love the music when instead of just loving it one is very pre-occupied with the scrutiny of fidelity-related minutiae. Fred is actually enjoying the beauty, wonderment, emotional richness, mental stimulation, perhaps even transcendence that music provides. |
I concur with what you’re saying. Those who don’t “fiddle” with their rigs, but are happy with the sound they are achieving can probably also be termed audiophiles. But the nature of this forum is that it dedicates itself to the type of audiophile who likes to manipulate equipment, which I consider rates the category of a hobby. If you’re not interested in the manipulation of equipment why would you become a member of Audiogon? Once you’ve achieved the sound you’re happy with you can join a music forum. |
Very good description! thanks ... These anxieties resulted in my own experience from the inability and incapacities to face the problem save throwing money and more upgrade toward an acoustic ideal the consumers had no idea about conceptually and experimentally... It is why acoustics is my cure and the only cure to upgraditis... ( acoustics knowledge is not passive treatment of room but a science about sound experiences)
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@rvpiano I understand your rebuttal but still cannot convert to the wholehearted or exclusive "hobby" idea. I and many others, I think, join and follow forums like this one primarily for two reasons. One is to learn more about and stay abreast of the various components and products on the market, past & present, and to continually improve our knowledge of the more technical aspects of evaluating various pieces of equipment and products. This provides some degree of guidance when one happens to be in the market for an upgrade, at some point. The other reason, of course, is to reciprocate by sharing whatever expertise we've acquired over the years and experiences we've had, in an effort to provide similar guidance to other audiophiles. |
Billy is a great rarity or doesn’t exist at all. A strawman to use for the sake of argument. You can keep an eye on what's going on in audio and do upgrades from time to time and still be very happy with the sound you have now. I think that audio is progressing and it makes sense to keep up with what's new. |
Upgrading without ever learning about acoustics is very often deluding ourselves... Billy is not a strawman it is an existing character... It is who i was before learning and experimenting ... My name was Billy ...😊 He described me.😁 Are you saying that i was the only one Billy here? Reading audio threads there is a crowd of Billy here who are like i was not so long ago ... Many upgrade because they dont know what else to do to improve what they own already which is good but not enough when you read marketing stuff without reading about acoustics, and mechanical and electrical working dimensions controls which are the optimizations solutions not buying a costlier piece each time ...
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@mashif: Fantastic, thank you SOOO much! I read No Depression for years (I have a complete collection of the original---pre-online---run of the mag, but I obviously need to catch up with their current issues). For those who read the article mashif provided a link to, that should give you an idea of how special Julie and Buddy Miller are. As is Iris DeMent. And Lucinda Williams.
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@tomcy6 No, pointing out the obvious fact that there are many audiophiles who play music and, instead of just enjoying the music, sit there and over-analyze fidelity-related minutiae, wherein dismay at disappointing fidelity is often the experience (just pursuing this very thread and hearing people say they won’t even listen to music, no matter how good, unless it has ‘good sound,’ will indicate this), is not a “straw man argument.” |
I have never met anyone who listens like that nor have I read posts by those poor people. If you can provide links to posts by all the Audiophile Billies around here I'll be happy to read them and maybe learn something. I guess I just don't read those threads.
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@tomcy6 i fit that description to a large degree. On the other hand I am not really an audiophile. |
Look for half of the people who upgrade in a race they call their hobby with no acoustics experience about what is transient or what is really a timbre acoustic parameters... I was one unsatisfied and i did not know what to do at all nor where to begin.... Before i studied and experimented with acoustics after my retirement because i had time and the dedicated room to use... Billy cannot know he is ignorant acoustically he felt it as unsatisfaction and cannnot do anything save buying to solve his uncomfort... To solve a problem you must be able to pose it conceptually no ? My best from one past Billy .... Now mahgister ... 😉
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I feel sorry for all the Audiophile Billies around here and I think you have problems elsewhere in your lives that make it impossible for you to enjoy music. I don't want to get into your lives any further, but as far as audio goes, just relax and enjoy. Be happy with what you have. But, if you come across a component that would improve the sound quality of your system and you can afford it, buy it and go back to enjoying your music. Buying better quality audio gear Should not cause you anxiety and it need not be expensive. There is so much good gear around at great prices that there's no reason that pursuing good sound should conflict with enjoying music. Best wishes on your audio journeys. That's all I have to say. |
From what I can tell an Audiophile Billy is anyone who does things differently than the way I do. If my system is inexpensive and my records scratched, it's the guy with Wilson speakers, McIntosh amps and UHQR records. For some it's the authors of angst ridden threads about which cable should I buy to solve my latest problem. Many Billies just post threads asking/hoping for people to agree that whatever they're doing is the right thing. If you believe you're not an Audiophile Billy as defined here you're probably not reading this nor responding. You're sitting in comfy chair listening to some music, not worrying about what any of the folks here think.
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I must admit, I now believe not all audiophiles are Audiophile Billies. However, unfortunately, I think. that a good many A’goners fall into this category. Otherwise there wouldn’t be so much handwringing over equipment that goes on. |
@wolf_garcia +1 X10, well said |
Write “audiophilia nervosa” (or ‘audio nervosa’ or ‘audiophile nervosa’) into a Google search engine and then press, “search.” I don’t know how one can’t see the clear difference between these two things: I don’t know how a person could actually undertake the process of maximizing the level of satisfaction their home audio provides without being person b). This doesn’t have to be something to be ashamed of or get defensive about. |
I always loved music... But before my retirement and plenty of time to kill i never adressed the sound problem... And i never really loved my system even with the myghty mithical Tannoy,... Then i listened music without thinking about the sound too much because i did not had nor the money nor the knowledge to improve it anyway nor the time to do it ... Anyway i did not know how to improve my S.Q. at all , after all my system gear pieces was not so bad, then why was it not enthralling ? I listened anyway mostly Bach and with Bach sound does not matter much... 😊 I decided to solve the S.Q. problem as soon as i was retired and even if i was ignorant i know enough to understand that my system was not so much the problem but it was instead acoustical, mechanical and electrical noise floor problems... In a word i studied acoustics to understand and i begun to listen very critically . Without these concepts in acoustics i could go nowhere , with them i begun to understand the sound body in the room for my ears ... For an acoustician sound is related to specifics parameters... We must learn by playing with these parameters. Then problem solved. It takes me 2 years though full time, i am no crafty man i read and advised about reading analysis all my life. I never designed anything .😁 I designed my dedicated room and all acoustics devices... It was a success because i learned so much. i listen music now in ectasy with a low cost system which is perfect in the specific window limits of the gear design i own for sure... Then to solve the problem asked me to stay in analysis mode the two years it takes me to understand acoustics basic but it was each new day more and more fun like a challenge ...After it was done i never felt the need to go in analysis mode again . 😊 Now i dont need to be analytical because the sound quality is balanced and detailed enough and the others characteristics are optimal for what i have... Even if upgrade is possible it is not even tempting because of price difference ( 10 times at least what i had paid) and my actual satisfaction .. In fact as some owners of very costlier system may see me from above as a deluded cheap audiophile , i myself see them from my perspective as unlucky owner of very costly gear they probably never learned to optimize in many cases ...😁 Creativity makes us proud. money cannot buy that . And in near listening with my modified speakers and TOP headphone believe me i feel on the Himalaya for a free ride (1000 bucks) not in a stopgap... Conclusion : read about acoustics science .. play with the parameters and have fun at no cost if you have time and a room for sure... it is not for everyone... 😊
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