This is a sand box and everyone has the right to move the sand about however they wish without being lectured to about their decisions. What forums like this tend to attract are scolds. Come on in one and all and take your shoes off - the sand is fine.
Audiophilism is a hobby
This post grew out of another discussion on music vs. sound. According to a poll taken in that discussion, it is clear most A’goners claim they listen to their rigs primarily for the music. Although I don’t doubt the truth of that, I maintain that much of the listening is as a hobby, with music being a very important component. I’m not saying we can’t be profoundly moved by the music but rather that a lot of our enjoyment comes from the sheer sound emitted from our speakers. Great music is of course a vital part of the experience, but with all the manipulations we do with our systems, we are fascinated by the idea of sound in itself as a hobby.
65 responses Add your response
Rhythm and pace is an overall characteristic of reproduced music. As I eluded to above it is the characteristic(s) that convey the connection to the pace / beat, the emotional content of the music. The term became very popular in the 1990’s because of the rise of solid state equipment that performed spectacularly from a technical point of view, but would leave the listener unaffected emotionally… a problem that is still common. I read extensively about it, but just never really could perceive it. This in large part because it is more or less omnidirectional and is a characteristic of the whole sound field. However, as I thought back… there were certain systems I had heard that just gripped my emotions and drew me in… that made me want to move and sway… actually to get up and dance (well… made me feel that way… not actually do it… I used to be a young white nerd, not a Risky Business kind of guy... now I’m an old white guy). I’d just forget about the small elements of the music and get emotionally involved in the music. Finally, this happened on enough disparate systems I realized this characteristic is Rhythm and pace. That it is present in different systems to different degrees. It was a breakthrough moment. After that, it became easy to sense it and evaluate it. Like lots of variables in audio, at first you can’t hear something, then when you do, and you cannot unhear it.
From a classic Stereophile article… “The definitions of "pace," "rhythm," and "dynamics" inevitably involve such related aspects as drive, timing, involvement, flow, and coherence. "Pace," for example, connotes speed; indeed, the concepts "fast" or "slow" have often been applied to sound reproduction.”
The article is worth reading.
|
I guess it depends on your definition. For me, audiophiles passionately pursue the accurate wholistic reproduction of the music. As opposed to high end audio enthusiasts. My definition leaves a very large percentage of folks out that are pursuing a “sound spectacular” that does not reproduce the musical experience. To me audiophiles are the purists. I consider my system an audiophile system. Not making instruments into soloists where they are not… not bringing out details out of proportion with the whole of the music. Not hitting you with an artificial wall of bass that would not be there if in real life. A system that reproduces the emotional connection of live music… focused on rhythm / pace and midrange with proportional details.
Music lovers… and I have known a number, simply do not care about the fidelity. They love the notes and order in which they come out. One such music lover I knew owned 3,000 albums and a portable record player with one speaker that he brought in to the record store where he worked. This was a typewriter sized device with a plastic tune arm, red and white box with a handle. |
@engineears - thanks for your lovely post : ) - I’d just like to say, that to many, the journey and the end are one and the ever evolving same - that every part of being simply lost in the music; the search for that transparency and realism of which you speak; the mistakes and leaps of improvements; the point at which one finally says they have finally arrived, before discovering an entirely new level of realism, dynamics and timbre - are all rolled into a single profound trip of change that never ends. I’ve found for myself that it’s never one or the other at any step of the way, but that the process itself is a series of beginnings and endings, of arrivals and fresh departures. It would be awful to have my journey come to any kind of end! : )
in friendship - kevin |
I agree with the process and it taking decades. I am happy to hear you have reached what makes you happy. I can almost hear it. But that is not my cup of tea. That is the great thing about our pursuit, there are flavors for everyone. So, what is your system? There is place to put photos and ID your equipment. |
I’ve arrived at a place where the goal of the playback system architecture is total transparency. I don’t believe that recordings can be improved in the reproduction process. Eliminating distortion is the key. That includes: - No tonal coloration (incorrect timbre) by ensuring a correct response curve - Having both speakers output within ±1 dB (although 0.5 dB is better) at the listening position across as much of the pass band as possible for a correct stereo image - Having speakers with even off-axis fall-off across all frequencies - A room setup that eliminates de-cohering early reflections - Reducing phase and timing distortions by correcting time arrival at the driver level That produces transparency and is my ultimate goal. Siegfried Linkwitz (RIP ❤) stated a great case for this in the decade prior to his passing. If your playback system is reasonably transparent then what you get is an honest representation of every recording, warts and all. And that’s perfect to me. If I hear a digital representation of a wax cylinder and it sounds like the wax cylinder sounded, that’s just right. My goal is never to make every recording perfect, only to hear exactly what the recording and mastering engineers wanted me to hear. Then listening becomes like visiting an art museum. I go through the galleries and experience each work for what it is and accept it as the experience it was meant to be. What this results in is a system where, if I sit in the sweet spot, the stereo image is holographic and the timbre is totally natural (if the recording was made that way). In properly reproduced stereo soundfield recordings it sounds like I am occupying the same space as the musicians. With gimmicked, hard panned, or recordings that otherwise don’t attempt to create a stereo soundfield, well they are what they are. I don’t try to make them into something they’re not. Some old jazz or psychedelic recordings are like this, for example. But when I am not in the sweet spot, the equal fall off across all frequencies as you move off axis means that even if the stereo illusion is reduced or eliminated, the timbre remains faithful and sounds natural. So if I’m in the kitchen and the system is playing in the living room, it still sounds as if a perfectly EQ’d mono system is playing. That’s fine. That’s just right. |
@engineears Well said. I think a pitfall of being so attentive to the fidelity of the playback is some folks cut out of their life significant swaths of music because the recordings don’t sound like whatever some audiophile magazine told them in an article constitutes “good sound.” |
There are some interesting things here. 1. Define ’hobby’. If you’re not making money at listening, isn’t every interest that isn’t a profession a hobby? 2. Yeah, the original conjecture is the ’Missing the forest for the trees’ argument. It basically sums up what we think of as obsession. Obsessive behavior is a high attention to detail coupled with a diminished ability to decide what is truly important to focus on. Don’t mistake obsession for passion. The operative distinction is that an obsessive listener becomes fixated on something on the way to their ultimate goal to the point where they lose their focus on the goal itself. 3. A truly exceptional sound system is beguiling. Many recordings simply sound great even to the point where a mediocre or tangentially interesting piece of music can just blow you away simply on the merits of its qualities, like tonality or texture. But the overall piece itself is perhaps just decent and not earth shattering. I’ve listened to many things where I thought, this production is amazing. This has no right to sound as good as it does. That’s totally a thing. 4. Part of the journey of the audiophile is, in finally reaching a point where the system is objectively ’very, very good’, we have to pause and take stock. Why did we set off on this quest for great sound in the first place? Now that the system isn’t an impediment, what should I listen to next? The problem is, the (audio) world is now my oyster and what do I do with all this amazing possibility. Many listeners just crater when confronted by the vast array of choices. They were so busy learning how to listen that they weren’t actively thinking deeply about what to listen to. For me, the point of listening has always come from and returned to a place of joy. Whatever I am listening to, it is going to be the result of a conscious, mindful decision. I never feel guilty about what’s spinning or streaming and I never tolerate any material that I don’t find fulfilling or satisfying to whatever I’m feeling passionate about at the moment. For me, the 13th Century poet Rumi sums it up perfectly: "The quieter you become, the more you can hear." On the surface this can be read as referring to physical stillness, but there’s a lot to unpack about us, our striving, and about letting go of that and just returning to listening from a place of joy. You have to go through years, decades!, of trials of learning to truly hear, learning about all the ways that audio can sound bad, and how to avoid those, before you arrive at a place where none of that is a barrier to what you originally wanted. Once you arrive at that destination, and this can be done! you have to be able to put all that baggage down and get back to what originally set you on this path in the first place. You’ll have experienced a lot of music and learned a lot along the way. The person you are will inevitably be changed by your experiences on the journey, and so, a conscious effort is required to discover who you are as a listener today. That is a challenge we should embrace and not shrink away from. That's when the fun really starts! Some people sadly do get fixated on the journey and never arrive at its end. That's sad, but that's the nature of people. It's certainly not all audiophiles by any stretch. |
I always loved music... But before my retirement and plenty of time to kill i never adressed the sound problem... And i never really loved my system even with the myghty mithical Tannoy,... Then i listened music without thinking about the sound too much because i did not had nor the money nor the knowledge to improve it anyway nor the time to do it ... Anyway i did not know how to improve my S.Q. at all , after all my system gear pieces was not so bad, then why was it not enthralling ? I listened anyway mostly Bach and with Bach sound does not matter much... 😊 I decided to solve the S.Q. problem as soon as i was retired and even if i was ignorant i know enough to understand that my system was not so much the problem but it was instead acoustical, mechanical and electrical noise floor problems... In a word i studied acoustics to understand and i begun to listen very critically . Without these concepts in acoustics i could go nowhere , with them i begun to understand the sound body in the room for my ears ... For an acoustician sound is related to specifics parameters... We must learn by playing with these parameters. Then problem solved. It takes me 2 years though full time, i am no crafty man i read and advised about reading analysis all my life. I never designed anything .😁 I designed my dedicated room and all acoustics devices... It was a success because i learned so much. i listen music now in ectasy with a low cost system which is perfect in the specific window limits of the gear design i own for sure... Then to solve the problem asked me to stay in analysis mode the two years it takes me to understand acoustics basic but it was each new day more and more fun like a challenge ...After it was done i never felt the need to go in analysis mode again . 😊 Now i dont need to be analytical because the sound quality is balanced and detailed enough and the others characteristics are optimal for what i have... Even if upgrade is possible it is not even tempting because of price difference ( 10 times at least what i had paid) and my actual satisfaction .. In fact as some owners of very costlier system may see me from above as a deluded cheap audiophile , i myself see them from my perspective as unlucky owner of very costly gear they probably never learned to optimize in many cases ...😁 Creativity makes us proud. money cannot buy that . And in near listening with my modified speakers and TOP headphone believe me i feel on the Himalaya for a free ride (1000 bucks) not in a stopgap... Conclusion : read about acoustics science .. play with the parameters and have fun at no cost if you have time and a room for sure... it is not for everyone... 😊
|
Write “audiophilia nervosa” (or ‘audio nervosa’ or ‘audiophile nervosa’) into a Google search engine and then press, “search.” I don’t know how one can’t see the clear difference between these two things: I don’t know how a person could actually undertake the process of maximizing the level of satisfaction their home audio provides without being person b). This doesn’t have to be something to be ashamed of or get defensive about. |
@wolf_garcia +1 X10, well said |
I must admit, I now believe not all audiophiles are Audiophile Billies. However, unfortunately, I think. that a good many A’goners fall into this category. Otherwise there wouldn’t be so much handwringing over equipment that goes on. |
From what I can tell an Audiophile Billy is anyone who does things differently than the way I do. If my system is inexpensive and my records scratched, it's the guy with Wilson speakers, McIntosh amps and UHQR records. For some it's the authors of angst ridden threads about which cable should I buy to solve my latest problem. Many Billies just post threads asking/hoping for people to agree that whatever they're doing is the right thing. If you believe you're not an Audiophile Billy as defined here you're probably not reading this nor responding. You're sitting in comfy chair listening to some music, not worrying about what any of the folks here think.
|
I feel sorry for all the Audiophile Billies around here and I think you have problems elsewhere in your lives that make it impossible for you to enjoy music. I don't want to get into your lives any further, but as far as audio goes, just relax and enjoy. Be happy with what you have. But, if you come across a component that would improve the sound quality of your system and you can afford it, buy it and go back to enjoying your music. Buying better quality audio gear Should not cause you anxiety and it need not be expensive. There is so much good gear around at great prices that there's no reason that pursuing good sound should conflict with enjoying music. Best wishes on your audio journeys. That's all I have to say. |
Look for half of the people who upgrade in a race they call their hobby with no acoustics experience about what is transient or what is really a timbre acoustic parameters... I was one unsatisfied and i did not know what to do at all nor where to begin.... Before i studied and experimented with acoustics after my retirement because i had time and the dedicated room to use... Billy cannot know he is ignorant acoustically he felt it as unsatisfaction and cannnot do anything save buying to solve his uncomfort... To solve a problem you must be able to pose it conceptually no ? My best from one past Billy .... Now mahgister ... 😉
|
@tomcy6 i fit that description to a large degree. On the other hand I am not really an audiophile. |
I have never met anyone who listens like that nor have I read posts by those poor people. If you can provide links to posts by all the Audiophile Billies around here I'll be happy to read them and maybe learn something. I guess I just don't read those threads.
|
@tomcy6 No, pointing out the obvious fact that there are many audiophiles who play music and, instead of just enjoying the music, sit there and over-analyze fidelity-related minutiae, wherein dismay at disappointing fidelity is often the experience (just pursuing this very thread and hearing people say they won’t even listen to music, no matter how good, unless it has ‘good sound,’ will indicate this), is not a “straw man argument.” |
@mashif: Fantastic, thank you SOOO much! I read No Depression for years (I have a complete collection of the original---pre-online---run of the mag, but I obviously need to catch up with their current issues). For those who read the article mashif provided a link to, that should give you an idea of how special Julie and Buddy Miller are. As is Iris DeMent. And Lucinda Williams.
|
Upgrading without ever learning about acoustics is very often deluding ourselves... Billy is not a strawman it is an existing character... It is who i was before learning and experimenting ... My name was Billy ...😊 He described me.😁 Are you saying that i was the only one Billy here? Reading audio threads there is a crowd of Billy here who are like i was not so long ago ... Many upgrade because they dont know what else to do to improve what they own already which is good but not enough when you read marketing stuff without reading about acoustics, and mechanical and electrical working dimensions controls which are the optimizations solutions not buying a costlier piece each time ...
|
Billy is a great rarity or doesn’t exist at all. A strawman to use for the sake of argument. You can keep an eye on what's going on in audio and do upgrades from time to time and still be very happy with the sound you have now. I think that audio is progressing and it makes sense to keep up with what's new. |
@rvpiano I understand your rebuttal but still cannot convert to the wholehearted or exclusive "hobby" idea. I and many others, I think, join and follow forums like this one primarily for two reasons. One is to learn more about and stay abreast of the various components and products on the market, past & present, and to continually improve our knowledge of the more technical aspects of evaluating various pieces of equipment and products. This provides some degree of guidance when one happens to be in the market for an upgrade, at some point. The other reason, of course, is to reciprocate by sharing whatever expertise we've acquired over the years and experiences we've had, in an effort to provide similar guidance to other audiophiles. |
Very good description! thanks ... These anxieties resulted in my own experience from the inability and incapacities to face the problem save throwing money and more upgrade toward an acoustic ideal the consumers had no idea about conceptually and experimentally... It is why acoustics is my cure and the only cure to upgraditis... ( acoustics knowledge is not passive treatment of room but a science about sound experiences)
|
I concur with what you’re saying. Those who don’t “fiddle” with their rigs, but are happy with the sound they are achieving can probably also be termed audiophiles. But the nature of this forum is that it dedicates itself to the type of audiophile who likes to manipulate equipment, which I consider rates the category of a hobby. If you’re not interested in the manipulation of equipment why would you become a member of Audiogon? Once you’ve achieved the sound you’re happy with you can join a music forum. |
For those who say they don’t understanding the issue or “the angst,” it is thus: As advantageous as high audio fidelity is, the processes by which the music lover achieves such is very often deleterious to actually loving the music. It’s hard to love the music when instead of just loving it one is very pre-occupied with the scrutiny of fidelity-related minutiae. Fred is actually enjoying the beauty, wonderment, emotional richness, mental stimulation, perhaps even transcendence that music provides. |
This estimate is probably off and the number is a lot higher, imo. The younger audiophile is a "home theater" guy, with a HT setup, spatial headphones, etc. I know quite a few of them in my city. They view audio as a multitasking system for their music, movies and games. Their setups tend to sound shockingly good and in many cases may beat the daylights out of some of the $$$$ channel based purist systems around here. The older lads here probably have little to no idea about the above mentioned, play games, etc. Purist stereo rigs my be a dying breed, but, the above mentioned is not. If these uppity audio brands don’t repurpose themselves a bit, they will be closing shop soon enough. The fact that AV forums have skyrocketing memberships and sites like Agon have dwindling membership should be initial proof.
|
I have characterized our pursuit as a "hobby" for a long time. I don't think it's fundamentally different than someone who plays Magic the Gathering, collects autotomotons, sings in a community choir, or restores vintage automobiles. For those of us who still listen to physical media our hobby has 2 dimensions. We collect and curate our equipment but more importantly we collect and curate our music. I can get goosebumps from listening to one of my favorite tracks on a boom box. But to hear the dynamics, frequency range, and imaging realism on my system is thrilling. Sort of like driving a really fast sports car around the track. Hobby is the best word I can use to describe what I'm doing. |
I haven't read all the comments throughout this thread. So, if this point (if it is one) has already been alluded to, my apologies! Although probably applicable, I've always had a bit of difficulty accepting the term or concept of "hobby" for what audiophiles are preoccupied with. It seems, to me, that the common denominator in this or what is at the core of what all audiophiles do is the visceral love of music. That's what kicks it all off! The term or concept of "hobby, I think, probably applies more to those who are constantly or frequently "upgrading", swapping out components and/or tweaking their sound systems in search of that elusive holy grail of the "best" sound fidelity. For those, however, who achieve levels of satisfaction with their sound systems that they can live with for considerably longer periods of time and, thereby, "upgrade" much less frequently, even when they can afford it, I think are more lovers of music than hobbyists. Does that make sense? |
We say "music" when we mean "recordings." We can buy "sheet music," but it won't play itself. So we acquire recorded performances of that music. Some of these recordings are lousy -- the conductor has an idiosyncratic interpretation that we can't stand; the mix is unlistenable, etc. Some recordings are pleasing. And maybe one is sublime, from performance to pressing. Same "music," different recordings. You want music? Hire a band to play in your capacious listening room. Me, I'll take their magnificent studio recording of that same music. |
I only enjoy my rig if I love the music being played. I mostly stream Qobuz and every week I cruise the new selections. I try new artists I haven't even heard of and new hi-rez selections that I know. Hit or miss on the unknowns, maybe one in ten that I play all the way through. I'll stick those in my favorites file. |
Sometimes, I'm just happy hearing music coming from an Echo in my bedroom. Sometimes, hearing poorly recorded or reproduced music distracts me from the content. Sometimes, I will only listen to well recorded and produced music on my main system. Sometimes, I'm happy listening to MP3 level streams from Pandora. I think it all depends on my general well being and the extent my OCD is kicking in. |
+1 @hilde45
We figured in a previous thread that there less than a million audiophiles in the US and of that group only a small number care enough to post about it on internet sites. Attempting to deny a love of sound on this site is akin to attempting the requirement to breathe oxygen. So why the angst? There are those who feel some guilt about the tired old canard that they enjoy reproduced sound more than the actual musical content, that they may be just as happy listening to sounds of trains, or voice sans music. If we enjoy the nuances of the ways that different gear reproduce the music that we love, and are willing to pay to appreciate those nuances, there is nothing wrong with that. People wear $5K watches because they appreciate the craftsmanship involved, when they could just get the time from a much cheaper watch or their cell phone. They drink expensive wine when they can get Kirkland, and expensive autos when a Toyota will perform the same transportation function. Why do audiophiles feel guilty about their hobby.? Do car, watch and wine lovers spend time trying to justify dedication to their hobbies? I am genuinely wondering |
The assumption or theory that paying attention to your gear can have a negative effect on how you feel about music seems ridiculous. If that's the case you need therapy. As a long time musician I can create music (the absolute sound?...hmmm) myself without my hifi rig (dozens of guitars, mandolin, ukulele, drums, bass...blah blah). The joy of this hobby is taking the reproduction of great recordings and having fun with them by making them sound as good as you think is necessary. My relatively modest system sounds astonishingly good and once in a while I improve it. I Recently added a Schiit Loki Max having no idea how much fun it would be (I sorta knew as I have a couple of Lokis)...I recommend this thing to anybody...but you MUST add "chicken head" knobs to it for even more fun. |
Wow, staying on Audiogon is paying off. 😊 I’ll get Blue Heron Suite and Build Me Up From Bones, and take it from there. I’ve seen Sarah’s name mentioned numerous times over the years, but just never connected with her. Now if I could get people to listen to Iris DeMent, I’d feel like I’ve made a difference.
For those who haven’t heard Julie Miller, here’s a rather disturbing video about her. Do artists have to be tortured to be genius? Going on the evidence of Julie and Lucinda, apparently so.
|
@elrod ....*S* Have enjoyed all of those ’transport modes’ ’cept for the OHVs’...adding boats of sail, motors, paddles....aircraft; 'copters, gliders thru liners.... ...although re the latters, never had the compulsion to jump out of one of those in flight, ’chute or no....🤪 Prefer a certain 'stability' in my non-stationary shuffles... Some of the ’better excursions in music’ haven’t required getting my butt out of a chair, and have on some included some ’in flight’ additions of ’adult enhancements’....but susspect not being ssolitaire in that sssuspicion....;) But, Yes,,,,,Most of the fun Is ’getting There’....and the ’exercise’ just make one hunger for ’more of dat DAC, pul-leze...’ 👍😎😏😈 (Fan of sibilance in speech and the silent space of typed trivial 'transports'....sounds 'n stereos, not so mucch.....) |
"Great music is of course a vital part of the experience, but with all the manipulations we do with our systems, we are fascinated by the idea of sound in itself as a hobby." Unless you sitting in front of a live performance without any amplification, the music is being manipulated. All the music we hear has been recorded, molded, shaped, mixed according to someones ears that are not are own. Lets face it, IMHO everyone listens to music using a ratio of sound & music. It's hard to have on without the other. I mean if you love going on a road trip, you gotta have a means to an end. So how do you hit your happy trails? Thumbing, biking, riding a motorcycle, driving your car, RV, or OHV. Heck, or even cruising on a Greyhound bus (You can't say you've lived a full life without riding on a Greyhound at least once). Your ride is the equivalent to the "hobby" to listening to music. How does that old saying go - the journey is the reward? |
@mashif Probably essential but he is also a musician not just a producer… if you look past the fraction you will find a play on the turn of phrase “ better half “…. Yes, let’s hope for some commercial success for Sarah ;-) |