I don't believe any type of harmonic distortion from an amplifier is "desirable".
Some like the added distortion, others prefer the truth. Personal preference.
Atma-Sphere Class D… Amazing
Today I picked up my Atma-Sphere Class D Amps. These aren’t broken in yet. And they are simply amazing. I’ve listen to a lot of High End Class D. Some that cost many times what Atma-Sphere Class D costs. I wasn’t a fan of any of them. But these amps are amazing. I really expected to hate them. So my expectations were low. The Details are of what I’ve never heard from any other amps. They are extremely neutral. To say the realism is is extremely good is a gross understatement. They are so transparent it’s scary. These amps just grab you and suck you into the music. After I live with them some and get them broken in. And do some comparisons to some other high end Amps Solid State, Tubes and Class D’s, also in other systems I’ll do a more comprehensive review. But for now, these are simply amazing amps.. Congrats to Ralph and his team. You guys nailed on these.
727 responses Add your response
I read Atmasphere’s words as, ‘given the choice between no 2nd/3rd harmonics, then having them allows one to mask the higher order harmonics. So you want them higher than everything at 4th and higher harmonics. Some of this may also bleed into people running tube preamps into SS/Class-D amps. |
@riccitone Yes they are nice and it is really confusing with the reviewers and the OE spec sheets. Just look at this review. Gold Note is making some very nice audio equipment. |
And this is a truth. I am such a one, for a variety of reasons. I am also careful to consider measurements (defined widely) for a component's attributes, again, for a number of reasons. |
If it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it is probably a duck. From Wiki; Class-D amplifiers work by generating a train of rectangular pulses of fixed amplitude but varying width and separation, or varying number per unit time, representing the amplitude variations of the analog audio input signal. The modulator clock can synchronize with an incoming digital audio signal, thus removing the necessity to convert the signal to analog. The output of the modulator is then used to gate the output transistors on and off alternately. Great care is taken to ensure that the pair of transistors are never allowed to conduct together, as this would cause a short circuit between the supply rails through the transistors. So yes, Class D is more accurately referred to as a "switching amplifier" rather than a "digital amplifier" but things get blurred when binary quantization is involved as binary quantization is at the heart of digital too. I find it interesting that in order to "cut me down to size" you chose to seize upon my bad choice of nomenclature (when I in fact used BOTH within the same paragraph!) rather than comment upon the bigger points made in my post. I will say it again also-I have no doubt that this is a very fine sounding amp. I would expect nothing less from a man of your immense experience, intellect, and knowledge. I just get my hackles up a bit when someone like our OP posts a sensationalistic thread title and then waxes on and on. You don't want to be equated with Tekton do you?
|
Me too @noske - my tube preamp has the 2nd at -75dB the 3rd at -90, and the 5th at -110dB. So they all look like what Ralph is describing, just we cannot see it. |
Let me be clear, Ralph never asked me to post anything. I also am a huge fan of Pass Labs, Coincidence, VAC, as well as others. I was very surprised that I really like these Class D’s. As I have posted a long list of others that has been in my system that I didn’t like. And when comparing them in my system with other amps. They exceed my expectations. In fact they have exceeded many peoples expectations that have been to my house. I’ll be posting my impressions of the Aqua LaScala DAC. But I’ll be alittle more careful how I word it. As not to start with what happened in this thread. But I can say…. These amps are very very good. And don’t do anything poorly. They are definitely the best Class D that I’ve had in my system. JMHO |
You should continue to post your thoughts and listening impressions as you experience them. This is an open audio topic forum and most folks come here to learn, share and discover. When you come across an excellent sounding product, you want to make others aware. Nothing wrong with that. I have certainly done the same over the years on this forum. A few examples, Coincident components/speakers, Ocelia cables and Lavricables, Pro-Ject RS2T CD transport etc. I want to share these wonderful discoveries/experiences with fellow music lovers looking for terrific audio products. Audiogon is a great resource. Charles |
Exactly Charles. I read these threads to find out what people think about how something sounds. Yes that persons opinion. I could care less about what they look like on paper. I can close my eyes and tell you what something sounds like. Try telling me what they look like on paper with your eyes closed. Pstores please keep the impressions and comparisons coming. |
@pstores please keep posting as these amplifiers come into their own. Ignore the naysayers and measurement nuts. |
I am not sure that is universal. One negative thing about the ASR testing, is that they only focus on SINAD, and I find a hissing amp to be pretty distressing, and would take some harmonic distortion over hissing. And then there is no weighting, like a discount for 2nd and 3rd harmonic, compared to all/any spray to the right… but the Audio Precision test equipment just kicks out a signal number. So I do not think that it is out of the question for Kurbio to ask for objective proof. Ralph has been talking about the distribution of the harmonics for a while, so to see it would be dandy way to objectively show some of what makes them sound good.. |
I am not sure that is universal. @holmz Nobody here is saying anyone’s opinion/tastes are universal, but they’re indicative of what one might expect in terms of a product’s sound signature. If any of us have learned anything in this hobby it’s that there is no “universal” truth in music reproduction. But that doesn’t mean one can’t get an INDICATION of what someone might expect out of a component. Case in point, if someone says something sounds warm with somewhat recessed highs that will go a long way to helping someone who may be looking for a highly detailed and more neutral-sounding component. Universal truths are pretty much a myth in this hobby given the myriad of variables involved, not the least of which is each person’s individual preferences and how they hear things. Just my take/experience FWIW. |
Indeed it would be nice to see the freq response versus load, the distortion spectra, etc....Too bad this info hasn't been forthcoming. Not sure how to interpret that... |
Well, I just put in my order for a pair of Atmasphere Monoblocks. I was not considering Class D amps, but when Ralph embarked on this new path, I have been very interested in giving them a try. And, as many know, I am a Vandersteen guy, so owning a Time and Phase Correct speaker meant using a Zero Feedback amp for optimal results. Atma's new Class D amps use feedback, but Ralph believes that Class D allows for more Gain Balance Feedback that conventional amp do, and without the negative effect of adding high ordered harmonics. (I hope I got this right Ralph...) Bob B |
@kuribo negative innuendo may not be a good strategy for it. |
It's not a strategy, it's an observation. |
@fsonicsmith The on and off states of a digital word have meaning- IOW the arrangement of the bits create a word which represents a voltage. In a class D amplifier the on and off states have no such meaning. When the term 'digital' is used, its assumed to not be analog. Despite being a switching technology, a class D amplifier's functionality is entirely analog. There's no intention to 'cut you down' or anything like that! Whenever I see anyone use the term 'digital amplifier' while referring to a class D amp, I feel its important to clarify since this is such a common misconception (or misuse of terms). If you do a search, you'll find I've done this on this site dozens of times over the last several years; please don't take it personally. |
+100 @jjss49 Ralph is a man gifted with patience along with his many other talents! |
Agree with @jjss49 and @grannyring . Ralph is right that many do make class D "amplification" synonymous with digital and they are not. Charles |
I agree, it is nice that he takes the time to discuss his products. It would be even nicer if he addressed how his product differed from competing class d amps in performance and what a consumer gets with his product that justifies the price of 3-4 times that of competing products. |
@gdnrbob maybe ask @atmasphere what power cord to run on them? |
Because it costs money to build a better mousetrap. If people like their off the shelf Hypex or Purifi based class d amps then they need not look for a superior sounding amplifier. They found their version of great. There's also a four plus decade track record of excellence which also means service after the sale, a good living for those who work there, etc. |
We have no proof it is indeed "better", whatever that means. |
@kuribo is a broken fricken record. You are like that old junkyard dog that gets a hold of a bone and will not let go. Let it go, you are truly one dimensional.
THEN CALL HIM !!! JUST LET GO or better yet just go. |
@juanmanuelfangioii |
@kuribo you should just switch OFF! Ralph has built some great audio equipment and given us all the gift of his knowledge and his wonderful engineering talent. All you bring is the same old crap about crap, your posts are like that gerbil running on the wheel, they go nowhere.
|
@juanmanuelfangioii , allow different points of view. Do you think that it would be better if everyone will repeat the same? It is good to have different opinions and some criticism. By the way, @kuribo never said that he does not like Atmosphere class d.
|
@niodari |
@niodari no he is just brow beating Ralph because he loves his new amplifiers. Please! Have a good evening.
|
No it is all good. I appreciate your post. I just assume that it doesn’t matter a whole lot, and it seemed like it would be good to have in here.
He did state that he likes Purifi and Hypex, and that they also have published specs and graphs. Being a fanboi of those brand does not automatically exclude one from liking, for instance, Atmasphere or Benchmark. It seemed more like “he has no objective proof that he should like them,” which if that is really what he means, then I cannot find a cogent argument to oppose that view. And I like them without an objective and rational reason to do so. It is not like being about as good a Purifi and Hypex, as good, or a bit better, is very different… they are all very modern amplifiers showing the best of the topology. and I thought that @pstores posted that he had also tried Purifi and either Hypex or Benchmark, so I am sure that the graphs are likely nothing to be embarrassed about. |
Hypex, Orchard, and Purifi are some of the current state of the art performance wise. The publish detailed measurements that give a great deal of insight into the abilities of the designer, the behavior of the product, and how the amp will play with other components. Additionally, they outline and highlight the performance envelope for users. Clearly these companies believe there is some value added by documenting the performance of their products and I for one agree. All properly engineered commercial amps are rigorously tested and measured by their designers so this is not asking for anything they haven't already done. I fail to see any legitimate reason to not share such data. Not everyone can or does find value in such information but that is no reason to piss and moan about those who do. I happen to appreciate products with state of the art performance and elegant engineering, both of which often go hand in hand with transparency from the manufacturer.
|
@kuribo The cost has to do with how the equipment is marketed. We use a dealer network and have worldwide distribution. That requires that we have it priced accordingly. Dealers can be quite valuable because they can provide support!! FWIW if we were to use a Purifi or Hypex module, the amp would actually be more expensive than it is now due to the markup we would have to pay on the module. The cost of the chassis, built extra rugged so it will survive abuse in UPS while being built in limited quantities, is a big reason the amp is more expensive. The funny thing here for me is for decades we were always docked on cosmetics. I was always resisting installing a 1/2" thick front panel on our stuff since it would have raised the cost so much, but that is what our competition has been doing all this time. And we still don't have the 1/2" panels! So we found a way to limit that cost a bit, but the simple fact is that if you do this stuff in the way that we are (the chassis is formed of 3/16" aluminum for example, to prevent deformation with the weight of the power transformer) its simply more expensive. Now if we were to use a SMPS it would allow the chassis to be cheaper, but our research has shown that if you really want the amp to perform the way it should, the SMPS will be custom built for the job. Otherwise it will current limit or other such nonsense and we certainly experienced that! So we didn't skimp on the power supply or the chassis. We just built it to proper engineering standards without cutting corners. IMO one of the reasons you see such variable comments about how Hypex and Purifi amps sound is because of how they are executed. |
Thanks for the insight. Indeed, those marketing Hypex, Purifi, and several other class d amps using the modules of others can "tune" the sound through the input buffer op amp choices. I suppose it is a clever marketing technique to appeal to different tastes, rather than offering any color the customer wants, as long as it’s black. Of course most of them degrade the performance of the amp modules to some extent, but as we can see here, there are those who aren’t concerned with high fidelity to the input signal. Other such differences, like type and style of case, input mains filters, mounting configurations, etc., surely do vary widely, from head scratching to immaculate. No doubt these differences play some role in the final result as well-how much, I do not know. |
I haven’t really told him how to redesign his amp have I? I merely suggested ditching the expensive case and power supply and offering a more competitively priced product. Clearly there is a lot larger market segment at $1000 than at $4000-$5000. I am sure I am not alone in saying that I would not pay $5000 for an amp that offers me at best similar performance to one priced at $1000- it's a non-starter. |
@kuribo If they can ’tune’ the sound just by changing opamps they are either using really terrible opamps or don’t know what they are doing! We’ve had the idea of a SMPS meant for the amp for a couple of years. That’s not a trivial design project although its certainly an one than the module itself was! Of course we looked at available SMPSs including those meant for audio, but again we ran into not only performance (which impinges the sound and performance of the module) and protection issues but also cost issues! If we make it ourselves then we solve three problems at the same time. In the meantime the toroidal supply is less expensive, works right and we have the right protection although we need a more expensive chassis to support it. IME though, that chassis helps with the mancave/WAF issue. In my case this means that I don’t have to have a mancave to run my stereo (although I do have to be careful about cargo shorts); it can be in the living room without inciting ire. Ya picks ya poison I suppose. I should also mention we're concerned about noise. For example Bruno uses a current pump to create lower voltages for opamps and the like. We found that is noisier than using a more expensive supply for the same task. As a result the amp puts less noise on the AC line than most tube amps. |
@atmasphere , I agree with that whenever SQ can be affected, but making thick chasis just to protect the amp during the shipping seems to me unreasonable - just pack it well! I think what @kuribo says is very reasonable, and this is not something in what he can have some personal interest. If you manage to lower the price of your product (without sacrificing SQ) , given its good or even outstanding sonic characteristics, your product will become much more competitive and you will be able to sell much more of them having higher overall gain, talking in pragmatic terms, unless you wish to have a product for a very selected amount of people. |
These are the claims of customers- they prefer the "sound" of certain op amps over others, not mine! |
| Post removed |
