Today I picked up my Atma-Sphere Class D Amps. These aren’t broken in yet. And they are simply amazing. I’ve listen to a lot of High End Class D. Some that cost many times what Atma-Sphere Class D costs. I wasn’t a fan of any of them. But these amps are amazing. I really expected to hate them. So my expectations were low. The Details are of what I’ve never heard from any other amps. They are extremely neutral. To say the realism is is extremely good is a gross understatement. They are so transparent it’s scary. These amps just grab you and suck you into the music. After I live with them some and get them broken in. And do some comparisons to some other high end Amps Solid State, Tubes and Class D’s, also in other systems I’ll do a more comprehensive review. But for now, these are simply amazing amps.. Congrats to Ralph and his team. You guys nailed on these.
I have said repeatedly that measurements are useful to me in evaluating products as far as engineering, performance, suitability in my system vis a vis other components, etc. are concerned. I have also said repeatedly that the ultimate arbiter is how the equipment sounds in my system in my room. Yet over and over I hear the comments about how "I learned 50 years ago that measurements have nothing to do with the sound", "measurements are useless in determining how something will sounds", "go to ASR", blah blah blah. I can not help but conclude that several posters here have a reading comprehension deficiency and/or a fear and lack of understanding of things numerical and technical.
Whether one listens like @pstores,or uses metrics and numbers like @kuribo, it us hard to argue that this amp doesn’t tick all the boxes.
(But I have not heard it myself.)
The designer of the amp is also a bit prone to measurements, and explaining things technically… so it is not like the designer is into alchemy and magic.
And most learned people would not likely argue that the designer is a fool, and that technical aspects of the amp are foolish.
Seems a shortage of such in this thread which is overpopulated with small minded intellectually feeble name callers who can neither rationally defend their position nor accept any idea which might challenge their misconceptions.
I am not sure that it is helpful to refer to them as small minded and intellectually feeble.
They may appear feeble in mathematics and and engineering, but they could have other skills, which we may not posses…
And on the other side, we have the “everything matters” tribe, and “my ears are all that counts” group.
Ralph seems to have an amp that measures well and sounds great.
It seems like a lucky outcome to achieve both at once. 😎
… and it makes me wonder how he did that.
@holmz I'm talking about stacking them on top of each other, on one rack shelf. The company that makes my class D amp often shows their monoblocks stacked. but reviewers and owners say it reduces sound quality. I tend to prefer short interconnects and longer speaker wires for system architecture.
That would put you in the minority.
Usually speaker wires/cables are better as the length goes to zero, and the XLRs are designed to handle longer runs.
But it would be a good question for the s designer to answer. <— @atmasphere
I don't think it is luck to have an amp that measures well and sounds good. I think it is the goal of many skilled engineers/designers. There are plenty of amps that measure very well and are very successful in the marketplace. There are also many that measure poorly in comparison, and yet they too find their supporters. If one didn't know better one might be tempted to believe that people's tastes vary quite significantly and that "good" and "not good" perceptions are relative to the individual, not the gear.
@kuribomy attempt at sarcasm or sardonicism may have been too well disguised.
Strictly speaking, Fletcher-Munson and the like are not rules or laws, but rather experimentally derived models of human aural perception. They are built on averages and generalities- in the case of Fletcher-Munson the results are said to apply to "average young people without significant hearing impairment". I doubt that describes many of those reading this thread... They have also been revised numerous times. While these rules of thumb are helpful perhaps to people such as yourself designing amplifiers aimed at as broad a segment of the market as possible, they are not "laws" or universally applicable "truths" like …
In terms of universal truths and laws, one can pretty safely say that as the distortion products go to zero, that the fidelity improves. How well this happens with complex loads, etc. is where topologies matter. But if we assume that some amps were possible with a vanishingly low THD+N, then they would sound the same regales of topology
… the law of conservation of energy or the laws of thermodynamics. As a result, they can not be relied upon on to be an accurate predictor on an individual basis.
Statistics, stereotype and generalities are borne from things being similar.
Humans are tuned to those sorts of easy ways to categorise things.
And the statistics of a group, are indicative if the sum of the individual biases and likes/dislikes.
Thus, the guy shelling out $5K for an amp would be best advised to trust his own perceptions and tastes and to listen to the amp in his system, in his room, to form his opinions rather than rely on the perceptions, tastes, and opinions of others. Of course there are always those who love to gamble.
And thus if one considers themselves similar to others in the group, then they would be more wise to gamble that what other people like, that they will also find that they the same stuff.
and likewise if they find that they are at odds with the group, then they would likely deviate from the group perspective.
An example would be cable deniers or believers.
If one identifies as a cable believer, then other cable believer perspectives likely have more bearing, and theuy find speaker cables, IC and power cables all matter.
And for the cable denier, they likely find similarity with other cable deniers, and value their similar group’s inputs.
and some probably find no difference in XLRs and power cords, but could believe that speaker cables make a difference, and identify with their brethren/sisters.
If a bunch of people with speaker-X say that they like electronics-A, B and C, then I think to myself, “I should see if I like them.”
If I do not like speaker-Y and a bunch of people say electronics-C, D, and E are great, then and not sure what I should with that… especially with D and E.
As there are more electronics that one can often stumble across we use other peoples observations and opinions on a forum to make some sense of it, and get exposed to things which we may not find, or otherwise know to look for.
Loudspeakers are the number one producer of distortion. Distortion needs to be embraced, not made the focus of elimination
^This^ is total BS.
Fat girls or guys also need to be embraced, but I am not embracing them.
Coincidentally the Purifi drivers are also the lowest distortion drivers.
It is fine if you like high distortion, but don’t claim that high distortion is high fidelity. That sort of BS double talk is a like it is from a character out of Ayn Rand.
I don't believe that the idea is to "want" 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion, but rather our brains use the 2nd and 3rd harmonics that are produced by the musical instruments to perceive certain aspects from the sound. I don't believe any type of harmonic distortion from an amplifier is "desirable".
I read Atmasphere’s words as, ‘given the choice between no 2nd/3rd harmonics, then having them allows one to mask the higher order harmonics. So you want them higher than everything at 4th and higher harmonics.
If the higher order harmonics are not there to begin with, then the 2nd/3rd do not need to mask anything… but some might still prefer the signal modified, or distorted, so that the 2nd/3rd harmonics were present.
Some of this may also bleed into people running tube preamps into SS/Class-D amps.
And this is a truth. I am such a one, for a variety of reasons. I am also careful to consider measurements (defined widely) for a component's attributes, again, for a number of reasons.
Me too @noske- my tube preamp has the 2nd at -75dB the 3rd at -90, and the 5th at -110dB.
My old preamp was predominantly 2nd harmonic.
My latest power amp is not too dissimilar - just a bit higher…
And the older tube amps predated Stereophile’s use of the AP test gear.
So they all look like what Ralph is describing, just we cannot see it.
I can close my eyes and tell you what something sounds like. Try telling me what they look like on paper with your eyes closed.
I am not sure that is universal.
Both my old and new preamps have very similar harmonic structure, and they have a similar (lack of bad) sound… and the graphs on the reviews look exactly like what Ralph describes.
So just because you cannot hear it looking at the graph, doesn’t mean that Ralph and others can’t.
One negative thing about the ASR testing, is that they only focus on SINAD, and I find a hissing amp to be pretty distressing, and would take some harmonic distortion over hissing. And then there is no weighting, like a discount for 2nd and 3rd harmonic, compared to all/any spray to the right… but the Audio Precision test equipment just kicks out a signal number.
So I do not think that it is out of the question for Kurbio to ask for objective proof. Ralph has been talking about the distribution of the harmonics for a while, so to see it would be dandy way to objectively show some of what makes them sound good..
Indeed it would be nice to see the freq response versus load, the distortion spectra, etc....Too bad this info hasn't been forthcoming. Not sure how to interpret that...
@kuribonegative innuendo may not be a good strategy for it.
No I am running Cullen Cables Power Cord. Hope this doesn’t open up a can of worms…. I use them on everything
No it is all good. I appreciate your post.
I just assume that it doesn’t matter a whole lot, and it seemed like it would be good to have in here.
If people like their off the shelf Hypex or Purifi based class d amps then they need not look for a superior sounding amplifier.
He did state that he likes Purifi and Hypex, and that they also have published specs and graphs.
So I do not think it is out of line to ask for the graphs.
Being a fanboi of those brand does not automatically exclude one from liking, for instance, Atmasphere or Benchmark. It seemed more like “he has no objective proof that he should like them,” which if that is really what he means, then I cannot find a cogent argument to oppose that view. And I like them without an objective and rational reason to do so.
And let’s be a bit realistic here; we are talking about the best in Class-D…all of which are very good by most standards whetherb they are objective or (unsighted) subjective.
It is not like being about as good a Purifi and Hypex, as good, or a bit better, is very different… they are all very modern amplifiers showing the best of the topology.
and I thought that @pstores posted that he had also tried Purifi and either Hypex or Benchmark, so I am sure that the graphs are likely nothing to be embarrassed about.
@kuribowell done on that post sir.
I think that there may be some effort going towards getting measurements done, but it will take a couple of months and the party needs to reach out to Amir.
nice post @sdl4 - But for some new here, Ralph is unknown, and taking his word on things from the 40 years of effort(s) is somewhat a “trust me” proposition when they are not involved with atmasphere.
I just became aware of them in the last year or so myself… but I am interested in them.
I found a review of the Prima Luna (with measurements) and therefore I would like to see the measurement of the Atmasphere. Then I could try and move the PrimaLuna on. If not I’ll keep it, and if I did, then I could consider making the jump.
I’d still have the tube front end, and I do not intend on that going anywhere in other than in a Charlton Heston fashion.
Are there different transformers on the 5oHz model?
Or just a different tap point for 240v?
(A lot of newer gear is 50-60 Hz capable, so I am expecting the transformer may do both.)
I am assuming your’s are 230v then, in addition to 50Hz?
So it would seem like you may be a long ways from Washington state in terms of shipping.
I’d kick in some $ to help with shipping if Amir has a 110-220v transformer, and if Ralph says that 60Hz is OK.
What's important to the ear? The ear is just a transducer sending a signal to the brain. It's how the brain interprets the data that matters. Science tells us we don't all interpret our perceptions in identical ways- there is variation based on numerous factors. No model is perfect. After all, the Fletcher-Munson curves have been revised repeated over the years.
The ear is not a simple passive transducer. The brain actually sends signals. Back to the ear.
This guy is just messing you guys. He appears to hold a grudge. A cursory look at his posts (which is all I can bear to do) shows he is talking in circles and sometimes contradicts himself. He's gotten better at covering his mistakes but in the end, he's just messing with you guys, trying to show how bright he is, which I think, is his main objective.
All the best,
Nonoise
Perhaps you’re right, but judging other people motivations is usually fraught with some danger.
And if we assume that he is genuine, then his request for metrics seems appropriate in the context of the amp.
You are aware no-one is going to beat Bruno's numbers any time soon. For that reason alone I really don't see what you are so concerned about what measurements we get. If that is the only concern just buy a Purifi and be done with it. The problem I see with that I already outlined.
…
I am sort of surprised to read ^this^…
I find the noise floor more distressing than the harmonic distortion. So the graphs could possibly add some insight.
see info below -- what is interesting about this troll is the user account dates back to 2000... so i am not sure it is a ’kid’ we are talking about - or perhaps the original user account was hacked... the writing seems alot like the infamous persistent troll that has used various usernames of late such as dannad, cindyment, deludedaudiophile, but perhaps it is someone different... 347 forum posts ’since 2000’ but over 300 of them in the last 90 days -- anyhow, i am sure the mods are monitoring...and hopefully they will take some action
Reading through the various opinions on these amps, some prefer the Weiss opamp, some the Burson, others Neurochrome, and others have said that the stock Purifi buffer is their choice. Some describe one op amp one way, another describes the same op amp another. Measurements show no differences which can be considered to be audible. They may all be "hearing" the same way, but their brains clearly do not seem to be interpreting the input in the same way. We see this same thing with cables and all the wacky tweak products- none of them can be shown in most cases (poorly designed cables, for example, would be an exception) to do much of anything, yet some people swear they turned their system up to an 11, others say they hear nothing. Previous experiences, mood, biases, go a long way to explain this perception paradox, This is why I find no real value in subjective comments regarding equipment on forums such as this.
@kuriboif the nueroshrome, purifi (etc.) opamps all measure the same, then what do you attribute people listening preference to? Or is it a psychological preference/bias?
How much hubris can a man possibly have to make such a pronouncement! This man has solved the problems leading to 20 years of "terrible missteps" of all that came before him?
People have been jumping all over @kuribo,which as @noske described earlier in a puerile fashion, with Troll and Fan Boi descriptions. But this seems like more like what they are describing.
When someone has 40 year in the industry, and brought balanced XRL to home audio, it is different than PS Audio YouTube videos.
One can only be so humble and demur, and honesty is not exactly overdoing it in a self promotion way.
I am not sure how Ralph can respond and communicate any better than he has? He certainly does much better than I can do in the sense, but I am also not an expert in the field.
. Who is Ralph to declare that his subjective opinion of the sound of his own product is absolute? Ralph will no doubt diplomatically respond that he is not just referencing his own Class D amp. If so, than tell us Ralph which other Class D amps are you declaring to be subjectively better than the best tube amps other than your own?
He also said that if people like the absolute best numbers and even lower distortion, that Bruno has those in the Purifi Class-D that they sell.
Perhaps you could be so kind as to look me up three, five, or ten years down the road and tell me when my ARC Ref 150SE and ARC Ref 80 power amps have been rendered value-less. on the market so I can inquire of my accountant if I can declare a depreciation deduction.
We can also roll in ARC with Purifi and Atmasphere, but that does not change the fact that they are running a business and have decided that a move to Class-D is a direction that they want to be poised for.
if one asks hard questions, or makes statements that are not appreciated they are referred to as Trolls and Fan Bois, and if they respond civilly then they are referred to as an ambassador.
But that is fine. I will not say another word in this thread and I truly wish you the best.
My reply today is for anyone who may not be totally impressed with Ralph's GaN amps. I don't have them, but I do own a GaN amp (MSRP $3000) for about a year. I have been powering it with a Chinese counterfeit Odin 2 PC and connected from my dac/pre with a Odin 2 XLR. My transport is a Audiolab 6000 (IMO, it is a much better trans than some say, and likely because of their cable choices) with a fake Odin Gold PC. For a couple months I have been thinking about switching them, which I finally did last night. WOW! Today I am ordering another Odin Gold
hth
It sounds like the cables are better than the amps?🤣
holmz go back to ASR where you wear the badge of honor as a super donor
I am a not Donor, much less a super donor.
This thread about Atmasphere amps, and Ralph would likely be the best person to opine on the power cord with his amps.
If I was not seriously considering these atmasphere amps I would probably not be as interested in hearing Ralph’s comments.
You guys are like herpes just wont go away. And no I do not have personal experience.
^This^ is like me asking questions on how a power cord can work, and people say “Try it and see,” or “one has to experience it”… How can you comment on the Herpes with having it?
But what if Ralph said, these cords work, or measure better, on my amps?
That would be germane to the amps and interesting to hear.
Maybe we should ask @atmasphere? And avoid descending into extension cords, which have nothing to do the power cords on these amps...
It seems to me that designers who build Class D amps from scratch with their own discrete circuits are the players to watch and buy from. Ralph of Atma-Sphere, AGD, and others fall into this category. Those using off the shelf class D modules are limiting their designs to the shortcomings of those modules
@celanderwhat are the limitations in the modules?
And I am assuming you are referencing the Purifi modules?
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