Today I picked up my Atma-Sphere Class D Amps. These aren’t broken in yet. And they are simply amazing. I’ve listen to a lot of High End Class D. Some that cost many times what Atma-Sphere Class D costs. I wasn’t a fan of any of them. But these amps are amazing. I really expected to hate them. So my expectations were low. The Details are of what I’ve never heard from any other amps. They are extremely neutral. To say the realism is is extremely good is a gross understatement. They are so transparent it’s scary. These amps just grab you and suck you into the music. After I live with them some and get them broken in. And do some comparisons to some other high end Amps Solid State, Tubes and Class D’s, also in other systems I’ll do a more comprehensive review. But for now, these are simply amazing amps.. Congrats to Ralph and his team. You guys nailed on these.
I agree with that whenever SQ can be affected, but making thick chasis just to protect the amp during the shipping seems to me unreasonable - just pack it well!
We've always packed our equipment well to survive FedEx/UPS treatment. But experience has shown that even though its packed well, the chassis can be deformed by the mounting bolt for the transformer if the transformer is heavy enough and the chassis thin enough.
These are the claims of customers- they prefer the "sound" of certain op amps over others, not mine!
If that is so either the opamps were really terrible or the designer didn't know what he was doing! With any module you really don't need a lot of gain, so why would decent opamps affect the sound?? Answer: if the buffer is properly designedand if decent opamps are used, they won't.
What a sad train-wreck of a thread. I feel bad for Ralph having to try to educate a bunch of keyboard warriors all because someone said something nice about his gear.
If that is so either the opamps were really terrible or the designer didn't know what he was doing! With any module you really don't need a lot of gain, so why would decent opamps affect the sound?? Answer: if the buffer is properly designedand if decent opamps are used, they won't.
Plenty of people have bought in to the "everything matters, everything has a sound" mantra. As I am sure you are well aware, audio people can be quite insecure and easily influenced by the siren song of other's wacky claims. Just look at all the audio voodoo on the market- if snake oil could only be refined into gasoline we would have $0.25/gal gas again.
Value picking seems to be easier when applied to established technology. Class D amp tech seems to in an evolutionary trajectory.
Current state of the art class d has performance with distortion at the limits of human hearing. Purifi, a leading class d amp company, is focusing their attention on drivers these days because in their opinion improving their class d amp has reached the point of diminishing returns. Speaker drivers are the weak link in the chain, thus I wouldn't worry about buying a state of the art class d amp only to have it materially improved in 2 years. Besides, one can get the state of the art for around $1000 these days.
@jjss49, I am too far from electronics, but a common sense says that there may be something rational in some critical suggestions. Of course, someone like, you, better understanding the technical background, may really be true that such "suggestions" have no technical soundness. But, at least, I think that they do not harm. So, what is the point in the sarcastic notes?
"Conclusions
It was just a few years ago that people scuffed at class-D amps not being very clean or good for audiophile use. How the situation has changed. First with Hypex modules and now with the Purifi 1ET400A. Audiophile myths are shattered with use of large amount of feedback and high bandwidth to produce an amplifier which brings transparency to anything you throw at it.
Importantly, the 1ET400A does all of this while producing a ton of power and staying cool and efficient to boot.
There is a subjective aspect to measurements that doesn't come across in the graphs. When I run these tests with switching amplifiers, I often watch the analyzer struggle to get reliable reading, or there are jumps and glitches in measurements. None of that was here. The amplifier basically acted like a traditional class AB amplifier. Indeed, I measured it with and without my AES-17 40 kHz filter and the analyzer was happy both ways. This is when I know there is quality engineering that has gone into design of this amplifier.
Overall, it is my pleasure to strongly recommend the Purifi 1ET400A to DIY and OEM manufacturers."
Just curious what is your agenda here? Just curious. You obviously have one. You’ve turned a good thread into one of the worst ones I’ve ever seen on Agon. You continue this circular conversation. I am going to stay away from the thread I’ve posted.
But before I sign off this thread. I’ve posted the numerous Class D Amps I’ve had within my system. Within this thread. And I can say I didn’t like any of them. Until the Atma-Sphere Class D. I am keeping the Atma-Sphere Class D over the Pass Class A XA60.8’s and XA30.8 I’ve had in my system. Let that speak for itself. As those amps in my humble opinion are truely excellent amps.
I thank those who had a legitimate conversation, questions, points and tried to keep those alive. I have some good things to also say about the Aqua LaScala DAC but seeing how this thread went…. I think I’ll keep my opinions to myself.
I've learned a few important things from this thread.
I've been impressed by the consistently positive comments about the sound quality of the new Atma-Sphere Class D amps from users who have owned or heard these amps in a variety of audio systems.
I have been extremely impressed by Ralph Karsten's intelligence, patience, and skill in explaining the design principles he's used in creating and building these amps. He's also been effective in correcting misconceptions about his amps by posters who have been quick to question Ralph's choices in component parts, business models, and retail pricing.
At the same time, it has been concerning to read posts that question Ralph's honesty and transparency in providing sufficient information to potential customers who want more detailed measurements of the Class D amp. A number of basic measurements have been provided on the Atma-Sphere website, as is typical for Ralph's other amps. The amount of measurement information is more than provided by some manufacturers and less than provided by others. To suggest that Ralph is being insufficiently transparent about the functioning of this amp (for some dark reason) is silly and irresponsible. Ralph deserves greater respect than that, given his long career as an honest and talented designer of electronic gear.
Based on the user opinions in this thread, as well as reading reviews and measurements of other Class D amps (some GanFET and some MosFET based), I look forward to listening to both the Atma-Sphere Class D amp and one of the Orchard Audio amps in my own system. Other listeners may prefer to focus on other products, but the Atma-Sphere and Orchard amps appear to offer the best balance of sound quality and cost in relation to my current budget and needs. As usual, other users may have different opinions.
All this fuss. Class D is the affordable ticket to music heaven these days. That includes Hypex and Purifi. You can bank on that. It’s just a fact. Not to say others cannot still compete. Good sound is largely a subjective determination but all really good sound excels in the same fundamental areas that can be easily measured. Looking forward to see and hear how the Atmasphere product compares.
You've shared your opinion repeatedly: yes, you like the Atmasphere class d amp after not liking others, which to you is something significant. Yes, you like it better than some Pass amps, which in your opinion also means something significant.
Your opinions have been noted.
I have provided an alternative view: subjective opinions carry no factual information. We must each listen for ourselves to find our own truth.
I have tried to move the discussion to the objective arena where discussion on the merits can take place based on facts and debatable parameters. I have mentioned such things as design, cost, value, performance, etc., in an effort to draw logical comparisons to other class d amps- rationale, objective parameters that apply to all amps and all listeners- things that can be legitimately discussed and debated, unlike opinions on how something sounds.
As a result, we have learned several things- what was patented in the design, why the amp costs significantly more than other class d amps, why a linear power supply was chosen when many class d amps use a smps. Unlike hearing how fabulous and great the amp sounds, this is interesting and useful information. Additionally, the designer has been patient and comes across as an intelligent and thoughtful person. Also good to know.
I am disappointed however in the lack of transparency regarding the measured performance of the product. In today's market, with several companies backing up their marketing department with a wide battery of test results, I can't help but wonder why this company refuses to share such detail, nor even give any explanation as to why they do not publish a more comprehensive set of measurements. Ultimately the measurements will be made by a third party and shared, so again, hard to understand the secrecy, but clearly, it is the company's prerogative so it is what it is...
I wish Atmasphere the best of luck with their product.
@kuribowell done on that post sir.
I think that there may be some effort going towards getting measurements done, but it will take a couple of months and the party needs to reach out to Amir.
nice post @sdl4 - But for some new here, Ralph is unknown, and taking his word on things from the 40 years of effort(s) is somewhat a “trust me” proposition when they are not involved with atmasphere.
I just became aware of them in the last year or so myself… but I am interested in them.
I found a review of the Prima Luna (with measurements) and therefore I would like to see the measurement of the Atmasphere. Then I could try and move the PrimaLuna on. If not I’ll keep it, and if I did, then I could consider making the jump.
I’d still have the tube front end, and I do not intend on that going anywhere in other than in a Charlton Heston fashion.
@kuribo"I have tried to move the discussion to the objective arena where discussion on the merits can take place based on facts and debatable parameters. I have mentioned such things as design, cost, value, performance, etc., in an effort to draw logical comparisons to other class d amps- rationale, objective parameters that apply to all amps and all listeners- things that can be legitimately discussed and debated, unlike opinions on how something sounds."
"Clearly there is a lot larger market segment at $1000 than at $4000-$5000. I am sure I am not alone in saying that I would not pay $5000 for an amp that offers me at best similar performance to one priced at $1000- it’s a non-starter."
Seems like you made a subjective judgment - at best similar performance - about the Atmasphere amp without having heard it. Nothing objective about that. Also, you’ve made it abundantly clear that you are fan/proponent of other designers approaches. That’s fine, and good for you that you have found some that suit what you value. However, neither Ralph or any other designer has to be beholden to the design approaches that you favor. And, if they feel that their differently designed amps warrant a different price point that is their choice; they understand the market and their business objectives. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. If you get musical satisfaction with Class D at the $1000 price point, great; if someone else gets Class D musical satisfaction at $3000, $5000 or whatever, great. There’s no right or wrong in that. Likewise, everyone is entitled to their own assessment and value criterion; again nothing right or wrong in that.
If anyone lives in the MA or NH area and wants to hear the Atmasphere class d amps IN THEIR system, PM us for a listen. No obligation then you can report back your thoughts.
If you get musical satisfaction with Class D at the $1000 price point, great; if someone else gets Class D musical satisfaction at $3000, $5000 or whatever, great. There’s no right or wrong in that. Likewise, everyone is entitled to their own assessment and value criterion; again nothing right or wrong in that.
Seems like you made a subjective judgment - at best similar performance - about the Atmasphere amp without having heard it. Nothing objective about that.
I said:
"I would not pay $5000 for an amp that offers me at best similar performance to one priced at $1000- it’s a non-starter."
What makes you think this is a subjective statement? I have been asking for measurements consistently and have said ad nauseam there is no value in discussing, debating, or arguing, subjective opinions about amp performance. Clearly if you had read and understood my comments you would have realized I am referring to objective performance above. Since the manufacturer has refused to produce the measurements, we can not compare the performance, thus my "at best" qualifier.
However, neither Ralph or any other designer has to be beholden to the design approaches that you favor. And, if they feel that their differently designed amps warrant a different price point that is their choice; they understand the market and their business objectives. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. If you get musical satisfaction with Class D at the $1000 price point, great; if someone else gets Class D musical satisfaction at $3000, $5000 or whatever, great. There’s no right or wrong in that.
I don't believe I have said anything that contradicts the above, which is all obvious on its face. I have stated that the amp, from an objective performance standpoint, provided that at best it performs as well as the current state of the art, is a poor value at 4x the price. That's MY opinion, based on fact. As you astutely remarked, "There’s no right or wrong in that."
This is just my observation but the Atmasphere OTL amp products have always occupied a very unique niche, technically much different than other products.
I think it would be foolish for Atmasphere or any other smaller vendor to try to compete with Hypex or Purifi based on technical specs because you will probably never differentiate yourself positively that way.
Rather, it’s better to offer a unique option. Like anything of unique quality, it will cost more probably than more mainstream products. It’s like coffee wine or any other product. There are always more niche products that excel and they usually cost more.
Looking forward to hearing Atmasphere Class D amps . That will be a draw for me at upcoming Capital Audiofest hopefully . I have a lot of respect for Ralph . He does things his way and very well historically . His posts here are almost always very informative and I appreciate that
"I would not pay $5000 for an amp that offers me at best similar performance to one priced at $1000- it’s a non-starter."
I have stated that the amp, from an objective performance standpoint, provided that at best it performs as well as the current state of the art, is a poor value at 4x the price.
What measurement could be provided that would possibly change what is quoted here? You are already convinced it is a poor value and something that is a non-starter for you. So the question remains, why are you here other than to harpoon and tear down a product you have no interest in buying? It is blatantly obvious what you are doing.
What measurement could be provided that would possibly change what is quoted here? You are already convinced it is a poor value and something that is a non-starter for you. So the question remains, why are you here other than to harpoon and tear down a product you have no interest in buying? It is blatantly obvious what you are doing.
Simple, really. Take a look at the Hypex or Purifi web sites and download their measurements. It should be blatantly obvious.
I am not convinced of anything other than the poor reasoning faculties of so many who continue to make unfounded, knee jerk postsmischaracterizing my comments. I qualified my comment about value- without measurements, we can't rightly tell how it compares to the performance leaders, but assuming it is at least an equal, it would be a poor value. That's my opinion. You don't like it, that's your issue to deal with. If it performs better, then it could arguably be a better value. I am not tearing down anything except bias, misconceptions, and poor reading comprehension.
There is no mischaracterization of your comments. You have plainly stated that Purifi and Hypex are state of the art and their measurements prove it. So again, what measurement could Atmasphere provide that would prove his amp is objectively superior to you? You have done an effective job to this point in this thread of not answering that question. If it can't or is even equal, in your opinion it is a poor value. You have stated that ad nauseum here.
It seems that you are the one with poor reading and comprehension skills here. And it is pretty easy to see through. No conspiracy, no knee jerk reaction. Just calling a spade a spade. I will quote you one more time here.
You don't like it, that's your issue to deal with.
@jjss49 Perhaps not so weak and lame but rather the ill-considered rantings of someone who I suspect, judging by his incoherence and lack of respect for the English language, was drunk, stoned or high. Whatever.
Exactly what is the reason that you chose to paste that rant on a thread dedicated to discussing the finer points of the Class D amp made by Ralph?
Did you bother to look at the suite of measurements published by Hypex or Purifi? Obviously not or you wouldn't keep chasing your tail asking me. Seek and ye shall find.
I have no interest in doing your homework for you. If you are too lazy to look and find the answers yourself, you don't deserve any more of my time. When you are ready to discuss the facts, let me know.
No, actually. Please provide exactly what tests you wish to be performed. One at a time.
I will agree with you should you be able to be specific, rather than saying just look at the websites of Purifi and download the information provided...that is quite a rude approach to maintain.
If you desire information, it is your responsibility to request it. Politely. I do understand that this is forum is predominately American, and I am not.
I am not chasing my tail. If he measured all of the same things and showed them to you, what difference would it make? The better question would be, what measurement result would convince you it is a good value? You have already answered that question. The answer is, none.
You have your mind made up already. No homework necessary to come to that conclusion. According to you, the Hypex and Purifi measurements are already state of the art, which means they cannot be bested.
Just a little deductive reasoning would then show that you would proclaim it a poor value. You have your answer already and you know it. Quit playing the victim.
BTW, every amp I own is class D. I own a pair of speakers that use Hypex plate amps in them. Are they good? IMO yes. Is it a good value speaker system and do they sound really good? Yes and yes. Are they the best available? Uhhhh, no.
@kuribo That is quite a slab of tests. I think that someone who owns one will drop-ship one over to Amir at ASR. Probably a couple weeks turnaround.
I’d do it myself, but I can’t because I am on 50hz power.
Also, what I am thinking and I may be wrong, is that this is version 1 (that I know about). AGD are already into version 2, with version 3 probably next year.
This is unlike Purifi, which is settled and been in circulation for quite some years with its predecessor Hypex and variants.
They (Bruno and his silicon mates) are miles ahead in the abundance of research, and have the starters advantage compared to a new entrant in Class D - I think Ralph's amp have only been available this year?
@kuribohas politely requested certain measurements be provided. He has the right to ask for those and @atmaspherealso has the right to either provide those...or not. I’m not sure @kuribowould be a candidate to purchase in either case as @csmgolfhas pointed out. Maybe Ralph would rather someone take the basic data he provides to make a broad decision to either go listen to them or not. Maybe Ralph could care less if the ASR crowd embraces what he has developed to even go hear them.
Here’s something that I’m sure Ralph would never do...but I suspect many others might. Why would I introduce a well made, well engineered excellent sounding amplifier at the $4-5k pricepoint rather than to exhaustively look for efficiencies and economies of scale in order to get the price down to $1k? Maybe I don’t want to build four times as many amplifiers? Maybe the money value of time to build an amplifier at the fit/finish I want to produce is X dollars and therefore I don’t want to compete in that space? My main reason to produce the more expensive product is that I simply don’t want to deal with the potential customer cross shopping Topping/Gustard/Hypex/Purifi while giving a reach-around to Amir and the other "if it costs more its a snakeoil ripoff" crowd. There are numerous examples that some potential customers simply aren’t worth the time it takes to turn them in to happy customers in order to head off the zero star Yelp review in their quiver.
I assume @kuribo is a sincere potential customer who has several measurement hurdles he wishes @atmasphereto clear before giving the amplifiers a listen. Give Ralph a little credit for reading between the lines that maybe, just maybe, the measurement police were unsuccessful in setting their trap.
Um, the only one in this conversation that has their mind made up is you. What difference would it make if he published the measurements? How can I reasonably answer that unless he goes ahead and publishes them? As I said, if they are an improvement on the Hypex and Purifi designs, then arguably they have an added value that may justify the 3-4x great price. Why arguably? Because "value" is subjective and as I have also said repeatedly, the ultimate arbiter is how they would sound to me in my system in my room.
I have neither seen the measurements nor heard the amp, which would be the basis of any judgments. I have remarked that the amp, UNLESS it competes on an objective performance basis with its competitors (which we DO NOT KNOW), represents a poor value TO ME at its price point. This is called "a qualified opinion" and it is based on speculation, due to the lack of data.
@noske I want to assure that at AGD we are confident to provide the most advance technology with all our designs.
Personally, and to dissipate your doubts, I have been working on Class D since 2001 and on GaN technology since 2005.
With all due respect, Silicon Mosfet cannot compete in performance nor on future FOM (Figure of Merit) improvement with GaN based semiconductors, it is not a matter of opinion, it is physics.
@aw-agdand for your first post you chose to post on a thread originated by an Atmasphere owner specifically about Atmasphere amplifiers? Were you somehow alerted to this thread by a close associate who has been following this thread?
I have been using class d amps for more than 25 years. I have followed the tech with great interest over that period. I am currently putting together an active 3 way system and am indeed looking for 6 channels of amplification. With my long history using class d amps, yes, I am a sincere potential customer. I was originally drawn to class d because of its efficiency, form factor, and price/performance. While I can afford to buy whatever I like I still believe in price/performance and with class d amps with stellar performance available these days for incredibly reasonable prices, I don't think it unreasonable to expect to see performance measurements, especially for products that seem grossly out of line price-wise with other market entrants. Of course every manufacturer is free to provide as much or as little detail as possible, that's there choice. The consumer also gets to make a choice.
That is quite a slab of tests. I think that someone who owns one will drop-ship one over to Amir at ASR. Probably a couple weeks turnaround.
It's quite typical these days. I can assure you most bona fide manufacturers do much more than what I have listed.
My understanding is someone has already sent one for testing, or is in the process. We should know fairly soon how it "measures up".
Yes, I am aware of Atmasphere's recent entry into the class d market. I have already previously remarked that it is an impressive feat for someone who has previously been an exclusive designer of tube amps to make the leap to class d, which I know is a whole different ballgame. Bruno Putzeys once described class d amps as wanting to do everything but make music, or something to that effect, meaning, one must overcome their inherent nature and climb many mountains to tame them. No doubt it is a tribute to Ralph to produce something which on subjective grounds seems to have attracted a following on his first go around.
@ghasley I simply found important to clarify to @noske, the user that called in AGD (and Atmasphere) implying a possible lack of experience (compared to Purifi) on the matter of technology, specifically on Class D and Silicon. I brought to his attention what the fact are. Is it something that is not allowed in this forum?
With all due respect, Silicon Mosfet cannot compete in performance nor on future FOM (Figure of Merit) improvement with GaN based semiconductors, it is not a matter of opinion, it is physics.
Really? Seems to me as a practical matter, silicon mosfet based class d amps by Hypex and Purifi clearly illustrate performance that not only competes with current GaN amps but in nearly all cases I am familiar with beats them handily in most objective parameters. One can argue that GaN devices offer inherent advantages over silicon mosfets, but unless the implementation exploits those advantages, it is all just a marketing scam. To date I have seen many GaN amp's brought to market, few that actualize these theoretical advantages.
An informative post with alot going on here. First, I admire that you are tackling a pretty complex DIY active three way speaker system. I also admire that you've been a class d amplifier user for over two decades. Especially so given the evolution of class d amplification during that span.
Now that you have communicated you are in the market for six channels of amplification AND that you can afford to purchase anything you want....I'm still not sure that would change Ralph's mind on supplying you the data you require. It might keep him up at night that you might need troubleshooting assistance with your electronic crossover and getting things to sound right.
@kuribo Yes, really. As I said it is physics, not a matter of opinion. However you are absolutely right about the implementation issue. GaN Mosfets are much more challenging to use in order to take full advantage of the intrinsic superior performances. Without a deep knowledge of the device physics and experience with the device package mechanical issues, stray inductance, gate drives and overall layout, any improper implementation can demise terribly the electrical and sonic performances. But that it is also true in general since the same argument applies to the implementation of circuits with Tubes, Bipolar devices, Silicon MOSFET, in ClassA, B, C,D, E, F, G, H amplifiers (all topologies of amplifiers).
Hope my answer is helping in clarifying a bit more the subject.
Not a lot of DIY- speakers are Tympani IVa, so it will be a matter of setting up the dsp crossovers, etc. No doubt it there will be a learning curve. Not sure yet about the amps, obviously. There is a plethora of options as class d has hit it's stride of late...I may look at the new Hypex Nilai500 modules due out soon as preliminary data is quite spectacular. Those would entail a diy build, which I have some experience with so shouldn’t be an issue....
We have Kuribo claiming that only measurements are meaningful and since Hypex and Purifi have the best measurements then they are the best. Then you have Ralph saying it is ONLY certain measurements that are meaningful for sound and his amp has those measurements. Neither one of these people claim that parts and tweak execution are necesarry or important.
Please go to 10 audio.com and read the reviews of the Purifi based amps from NAD and the EVS modified VTV $1000 amp. They both use the same exact module from Purifi......I do some minor mods to the Purifi module.....but it would not measure any different. He describes the sound difference.......quite a bit better with my modded Purifi than the stock implemented NAD. BTW, I am no longer modding amplifiers.....so this is not an advertisement. In fact, you will see all references to modding removed from my website this weekend (I am sure the anti modders are celebrating....he he)
Measurements are great......I think it is better to have lower measured distortion and probably Ralph is correct about the types of distortion. But.....a BIG BUT.......this is just the beginning. I can take any amplifier of any type.....class A, Class A/B, class D.....solid state or tubes and improve the sound in infinite ways that have NOTHING To do with the distortion measurements. I have been doing this for over 40 years. People have sent me their stock digital disc players, DACs, etc. and I have done mods on them and returned them and ALL of them over the years say they now have better sound. It is universal.
If you really want to KNOW anything about what I am saying.....then simply try the transformer mod ON ANY product you have that has a toroidal transformer bolted down with steel hardware. Do you want to be right?.....or do you want to learn something? Do you want the sound you have now or do you want better sound? It will take 20 minutes to take the covers off....remove the steel and place the transformer on a three inch sqaure piece of one quarter inch thick wood. You can even temporarlily use two stacked double thick cardboard pieces Even if you just lay the transfomer down on the chassis the sound would be improved......but it sounds best by getting the transformer away from the grounded chassis.
You could also try an audiophile fuse....(the $200 Quantum yellow for instance). Does it improve the sound.....or will it do nothing as Ralph and Kuribo claim?......Who do you believe? I believe no one. I try things for myself. Do not believe me, do not believe Kuribo, do not believe Ralph......believe what you experience/what you hear. DIRECT experience tells you what is true.....words are just words.....opinions are just opinions.....truth can be known by direct experience only. Are you in LOVE? Do you need someones opinion to know you are in love? Do you need someones opinion to know what something sounds like? I hope not. Be your own Guru.....be your own source of knowledge......A wise man has direct knowledge.....he does not follow others..
We are the infinite light, love, joy and peace of God.....We are also wise and powerful....especially when we let spirit guide our ways of thinking and saying and feeling and doing. May you all create a life filled with the bliss of God.
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