Atma-Sphere Class D… Amazing

I have had the GAN 400 and Nova 500 within my system. As well as others I don’t recal the model numbers. I believe they are low feedback not zero. Just remember this advice is coming from someone who believes Nelson Pass, Dave Hafler, Ralph Karsten, Frank Van Alstine, Keith Johnson, Bob Carver, Dieter Burmester, John Curl, David Berning, Saul Marantz and others should be siliconing and wire tying their amps together. And none really have a clue how to make a great amp. And all could learn a lot from him. So you should take what he says with a grain of salt. On top of that… He’s never had a product brought to market. If he had and had implemented his design features of Wood, Silicone and wire ties to hold his amps together. He’d be a world class Audio Engineer. Or at the very least making millions  updating and modifying Pass Labs XA250.8’s. As they aren’t glued together and held together with wire ties. And the people that can afford a cobbled together subpar Pass XA250.8 would be on waiting lists for him to tweak their amps. For me I’ll stick with Nelson, Saul, Ralph for professionally designed and built equipment. I’ll put money on that he can’t make an Atma-Sphere amp sound better. He should buy a set. Tweak them. And Ill bring mine for and AB test to his house, apartment, or trailer park that he lives in. I’d like to see him put his money where his mouth is. 

Concentrating just on GaN amps, the observations made for Atmosphere GaN monos may well be applied to a number of other GaN amps. I honestly can see no proof of superiority except that I read a number of subjective expressions. I readily believe that Atmosphere d amps sound wonderful, and would really like to know more on how much better are they than the other GaN amps. This thread, so far, didn’t help me in this. Too many subjective points of view.

How do you define "superiority"? Of course all you have read here are subjective opinions because the vast majority of people here either believe their opinion actually has relevance to those besides themselves or they believe the opinions of others have relevance to themselves. As I have said repeatedly, the only possible way to actually compare amplifiers in a way that can be logically and rationally valid is by looking at the specs. The specs won't tell you if you will like the sound, but they do provide useful data about the performance, design, and can give hints about the sound. As such, they are a good starting point. Any discussion outside of the measured performance is simply subjective opinion and a waste of one's time when it comes to how you will feel about the sound.

The only way to make any judgments of how you will judge the sound of an amp (or any other audio component) in your system, in your room, is to experience it first hand. The opinions of others, regardless of their experience, are not guaranteed to be yours no matter how hard they try to convince you that they "know" some mystical "truth" because they have been "listening to wire" for 40 years.

@ricevs "You need a source that has some kind of digital volume control at 32 bits or more so you won’t mess up the sound."

Would Roon quality? Can you give us some examples. Thanks.

I’ll put money on that he can’t make an Atma-Sphere amp sound better

There is no "better", only different, when it comes to subjective value judgments. No doubt the tweak guru could place Ralph's GaN amp on a pile of horse manure and someone would say it sounds "better" sitting on horse manure than it does sitting on cow manure. But that "better" is only true for that listener and has no meaning to others. Opinions based on subjective perceptions are not facts! Your opinion about how amps sound is no more valid than the tweak guru's opinion to others- they all are meaningless outside a population of one. Of course, you aren't trying to profit off of your opinions and aren't claiming to possess "universal" knowledge...

@kuribo 

   This is true. I will unbolt the Tansformer and place some Dried Dog stuff in between then wire tie it down. Don’t have much for wood. Although I can put some birch bark top and bottom of the Dog Stuff. I’ll report back.I do have some Class A Wire Nuts also. I’ll hard wire everything. Got new soldering gun from HD last week I’ll try to convince my friend to do it to his Pass XA60.8’s later today also. Not sure how that will go with him though. 

@pstores 

No doubt that will take it to 11!

Three comments here:

1. Once you modify stuff, the value usually goes down.

2. Ralph’s stuff on the resale market sells pretty quickly

3. Ralph’s stuff on the resale market holds its value

Even if wood or glue or other things would improve the sound, why would you take the chance?

Having heard Ralph's amps at the Florida Audio Expo, I wouldn't touch them...well, except to plug them in, turn them on and enjoy!

@pstores

I am staying clear of the insults, anti subjectivism aspects. My only point and interest is the comparison between two quite different approaches to class D design. Ralph’s new amplifiers are receiving much positive comments and I believe deservingly warranted.

His high feedback Op-amps amplifier versus a near polar /opposite approach is something that I find compelling with regard to respective sonic presentation. All that concerns me with audio products is how do they sound? That’s why we buy them.

Charles

@snapsc

Pudelpointers are a very old and rare breed. Once people realized I used the dried excrement and Birch Bark with special Teflon twisted pair wire ties that should definitely increase the value and sonic character of the amplifiers. Hopefully we can try it with the Pass XA60.8’s also. Just think of the overall improvement these amplifiers will see. The Dried Dog Excrement should isolate the Power Supply from vibration better then wood by far. And take all Jitter out of the signal path. I may even try to silicone all the boards on top of a few pieces also. Since the amps don’t heat up I don’t believe smell will be an issue. But the XA60.8’s heat up some. Ummm, we will see how it all works out.

Can we please move the measurement vs perception distraction to another thread so we can focus on Atma-Sphere's new amp here.  FYI, I am picking up a demo pair in a couple hours. 

Its tough to debate with the self-righteous for they are sure they are absolutely right…and I am sure there are no absolutes in addition to the FACT that what they believe they are RIGHT about is off topic to the OP’s thread. But maybe it’s wrong of me to point this out when he is so lovingly offering up complimentary salvation?

The problem with those who are certain they know the “secret” to something is the fact that they just can’t stand keeping it to themselves.

@tinear123 

  You are going to love them I’ll bet. Guessing since they are a demo pair they have a lot of hours on them. Thats good. I did find mine got slightly better after a few hours of run time. But they were great out of the box. What does your system consistent of? I’ll be looking forward to your comments. I’ll be posting more information also later today after putting them into different systems at an Audio Shop in Minneapolis. And a friends house on my way home. 

Can we please move the measurement vs perception distraction to another thread so we can focus on Atma-Sphere's new amp here.

Can you please explain how exactly there can be any meaningful discussion of the new amp here regarding it's performance when we have nothing but subjective opinions expressed? There are no measurements at present available from Ralph to have any rationale discussion of the amps performance. Subjective impressions are not facts, are not able to be compared, contrasted, debated, or relied upon. There is nothing to be learned from second hand opinions, why waste the time?

@ghasley 

+10 hopefully we can get back to the amps and not BS….  Opinions are just that. Opinions. And everything in Audio is subjective. But when so many that have heard the amps actually…. Have nothing bad to say about them. I have only heard great things from other owners. And people that have heard them at other venues. 

@pstores 

Indeed. Its your thread and for someone to question Ralph’s engineering and design chops from left field is questionable. Glad you started it and I’ve never seen anyone question Ralph’s design choices. Atmasphere may or may not be someone’s preference but it absolutely exceptionally well made and designed. Best.

@ghasley 

The problem with those who are certain they know the “secret” to something is the fact that they just can’t stand keeping it to themselves.

+1

Beautifully put.

Charles

I really don’t care what others think of the sound of these amps, regardless of how many owners praise them- there are probably billions of people who love ketchup and yet I am not a fan.

I would like to learn more about the engineering and design of these amps. It has been said that there was a patent awarded for some aspect of the design- I would like to know more about exactly what was patented. I would like to see the measurements and wonder why they haven’t been published yet when this product has been years in the making- it takes very little time to upload a few files. I would like to hear the designer’s take on how his class d design differs from those of Hypex and Purifi and at 3 to 4 times the price, what they offer over the Hypex and Purifi products that makes them worth the considerable difference. I would like to know why he decided to design his own class d modules, especially in light of the fact that it is no trivial matter and a completely different task than designing a tube amp....I would like to know why the designer choose GaNfets over standard fets and what advantages he believes they offer at his operating frequency over standard fets....

@kuribo 

    You can look up the patent pretty easily. And I would say from a consumer that has had most of those amps in my own system. They quality of the Sonic Characters (soundstage, details, realism, engaging, not bright or harsh, transparency etc) puts them above all others I’ve had in my system. If you read up some posts you’ll see the class d as well as others I’ve owned or had in my system for demo. I have not found any Class D that I liked till these came along. JMHO…

@kuribo 

  Watch some of Ralph’s interviews and he pretty much lays it out why the new adventure. 

@pstores

Sure, I could look up the patent, or the designer could explain it himself and provide his take on what problem it was designed to solve and why.

With all due respect, while your experience with a wide variety of amps is impressive on its face, all it really means to me is that you have tried a wide variety of amps. I can perhaps assume you are confident in your choice based on that wide audition experience. Your preferences and experiences can not be extrapolated to predict my own, as such, they are useless to me and others in that regard.

I have read and watched the interviews and understand the why- I am more interested in the how. There are many traditional tube amp companies who have seen the future and are now marketing class d amps. Not hard to understand the why.

@kuribo has a crush on Bruno and any other designer, engineer is an abomination in his eyes. The only time he posts is when people are praising a product that is not  made by his boy Bruno. Then his energy is spent slamming it when he knows nothing of it.

Ralph stays above the fray and continues to sell his products and gains a larger following in spite of Kuribo.

I have personally owned Purify equipped Integrated and it was very bland, soulless,  uninspiring. Guess that is why there is so many of these units for sale here and at USAM. 
 

Kuribo you are entitled to your opinions and I chose to use a spec sheet as only one leg of the decision process, the most important being how a piece will sound in my system paired with the equipment I already own. Often the spec sheet looses.

This is more often than not, an emotional process and the music has to touch your soul. Data be dammed. 

@juanmanuelfangioii 

The fact is I have praised other class d amps as well designed- Orchard for one. I respect and admire good engineering and state of the art results regardless of the name attached. Your efforts to characterize my admiration as some sort of personality worship are immature and show you to be a shallow person not worthy of consideration.

 

@kuribo 

Start a thread or comment on Atmasphere. 

I will be giving Bruno's Ncore stuff a shot next week. Have a Pharaoh II waiting for me when i get home on Sunday. 

See how it fares against my other gear. Has a tube pre and hope it has some soul as such.

@kuribo maybe crush was harsh. All you have done here is put Ralph’s design down. Praising Orchard and belittling every other amplifier design hardly makes you objective in you admirations. Not shallow just facts from these pages.

As ghasley said start a thread or go for a walk. I am doing the latter I have a lunch date. 

@kuribo Make an effort! Between Ralph’s refutation of ricevs’s pointless proposed modifications, and the Cook’s Tour of the inside of the amp that he gives in the San Francisco video (posted somewhere above), there’s plenty of technical information out there. If you can’t accept that they sound good without seeing a suite of measurements, then you’re in the wrong forum--try ASR for size.

~ a happy AGD owner (OMG! also no measurements).

@juanmanuelfangioii

I haven’t put Ralph down, I have said I would like to see measurements and hear about his patent, design, value proposition, etc. All very fair game for a $5000 piece of equipment. Besides, he’s more than capable of speaking for himself and hardly needs you or anyone else to defend him.

Admiration is based on a subjective assessment, so no, it really isn't possible to admire objectively. I have given a rationale for my dislike of certain amp designs. Perhaps you need to reread my criticism of these amps to see than in fact I have criticized their out of date design which results in a load variant frequency response. That is objective fact.

Yes, I have put down some amps that frankly are more a marketing scam than state of the art engineering. I give praise where praise is due. Orchard is an excellent example.

@twoleftears

"Between Ralph’s refutation of ricevs’s pointless proposed modifications, and the Cook’s Tour of the inside of the amp that he gives in the San Francisco video (posted somewhere above), there’s plenty of technical information out there. If you can’t accept that they sound good without seeing a suite of measurements, then you’re in the wrong forum"

Sorry, there has been precious little discussion of technical side of this amp, none of which answers the questions or addresses the issues I put forth earlier.

And no, I can’t accept that they sound good without hearing them myself with my equipment and my room. I have made it clear, repeatedly, that I am neither interested in, nor place any value, on the subjective impressions of others using the amp in their system and room. Perhaps you missed that the first 12 times. I would like to see the measurements to see how it performs compared to state of the art class d amp designs available from Hypex, Purifi, and Orchard- measurements show how well it does what an amp is made for: taking a small signal and making it large. I would like to hear more about the patent and why I should consider this amp at 3 times the price of current state of the art amps, among other things. No, measurements will not tell me if I find it pleasing to listen to but they will tell me things that are important to MY evaluation. I don’t need your permission nor approval to form my opinions.



 

@kuribo 

i found five patents granted to Ralph...the link is below. What is your setup and have you considered listing your system in the section provided?

@ghasley 

thanks for the link. I would like to hear specifics from Ralph on the benefits and advantages of his inventions as they pertain to his class d audio amp.

My set-up has no informative value or relevance to anyone other than myself. I see no useful purpose in sharing it. Sorry.

@twoleftears ~try ASR for size.... a happy AGD owner (OMG! also no measurements).

You own AGD and have not even looked at the website where a few graphs are provided like FFT, square wave and a couple other things (measurements) are provided.

Also the product manual.

In other circumstances I’d have enjoyed your considered opinion as you are an owner, but that lost me a bit.

I am a little disappointed that Ralph does not supply similar information.  No way am I gunna buy anything without these pretty basic fast facts.

@kuribo then drop Ralph a line or go over to whatsbestforum.com where there are several manufacturers posting. Bet they tear you up. 
 

@juanmanuelfangioii

No reason to drop him a line or to go to another forum. His amp is the topic of discussion in this thread and he has participated. No reason to not direct questions regarding his product in a thread about his amp to him here. But thanks for the suggestion.

Guess he ignores some folks. 

@jerryg123

Possibly, or maybe avoids answering their questions. Hard to say, isn’t it? Maybe letting him speak for himself rather than speculating or making unsupported assumptions would be the prudent course to take.

Here is another class D amp that will be really good when it hits the street (in two to three months):

The New DIY amp from Hypex called the Nilai 500 DIY.  This is Hypex's latest module and will be available for DIY only.  The measurements are as good as it gets and makes Kuribo drool....he he

The modules are $350 each and the new power supply for it is $250.  Mono block kits (including chassis and all hardware and wiring) will be $850 each plus paypal, duty and shipping.....so less than $2K delivered.  Anyone with a screwdriver and soldering gun can have them up and working in a few hours.  A stereo amp will be $1225 plus paypal, shipping and duty.

There is an thread on ASR for those that want to know more.  Completely discrete front end circuit and completely discrete built in regulators.  Good Wima caps on the output filter.  500 watts into 4 ohms.

Another Class D winner!  How will this less than half price thing sound against the Atmasphere? 

OK I have the Atma-Sphere-D's in my system and have started listening.  "Subjective" report out later but for now some pix and a description of my humble system. The system sounds much more complex in words that it actually is.

Speakers: 1) BD-design horns @ 112dB sensitivity (utilizing the BMS-4592ND coaxial compression drivers w/ custom phase plugs) FYI I have a pair of the new Celestion Axi2050 drivers coming mid-Oct to check out).  Both the BMS and Clelstion have roughly the same frequency response in my horns of ~300Hz-21kHz. 2) The base cabinets are the BD-design Compact Reference w/ 15" drivers running from 38Hz-800Hz.  3)Not shown in the picture is an SVS-16-Ultra for ~15Hz-40Hz.  NOTE: in the pic you will see a sub but that is just part of my JBL soundbar and is only used for TV.

Amplifiers: 1) Coincident Frankenstein Mk-2 300B monoblocks driving the horns (shown sitting in the floor) OR the Atma-Sphere-D's on top of the cabinet where the 300B's normally sit. 2) Crown-XLi-1500 driving the base cabinets utilizing a mini-DSP for xover & volume matching duties. 

Preamp: Don Sachs custom 

Dac: Holo Audio May-KTE

Streamer: Innous Mini-Mk3 + LPS power supply

Cables: Grover Huffman end to end

@kuribo 

DIY? Don't be afraid to list your gear. Everyone benefits.

@juanmanuelfangioii 

The next comment will likely get deleted but I once inquired about potentially purchasing Audiogon. All I would do differently is moderate the forum and make it virtually impossible for the spam posts and scam listings. You want to partner up? Post about counterfeit products? One warning and then banned. Join today and want to sell something? Escrow funds until both parties consent. Post about politics? One warning, then penalty box.

@kuribo Like I said...btw you get to run your mouth and speculate, postulate, and well .....yes it rhymes. 

@ricevs 

The post above is pure chickenshyt. That is such poor form to pimp yet another product you have yet to hear.

Your love, happiness and peace schtick is just a cover for you to advance your passive-aggressive biases. #nocredibility #asrfanboy

@tinear123 Nice. And thank you for your observations.

@ghasley 

Fear has nothing to do with it. I've explained why it is irrelevant. I would hope that you would have the grace to leave it at that.

@tinear123

Thanks for posting the pics. How are you enjoying the amps? Did you pop the lids so that you could superglue the trannies? LOL.

Reading through this thread is kind of amusing. You have some here staying on topic and others who nit pick statements and put their spin on them from some self anointed higher ground when in fact, it's just sophistry for the purpose of getting their spin out there enough times, thinking it will sink in and become conventional wisdom.

It's just their opinion, hiding behind "facts".

All the best,
Nonoise

Just popped the lid as I do on everything according to my wife and since I'm an engineer and do tend to disassemble everything she is right.   

@ricevs Here is another class D amp that will be really good when it hits the street

Yeah, really interesting dude, on a thread about Ralph’s class D amps or any similar (??) Ganfet in production like AGD.

Some here and elsewhere may wish for you to hit the street. No, I don’t know what that means, either, but I’m guessing its like falling over and hitting your head on the gravel.

@tinear123 Just popped the lid as I do on everything according to my wife and since I'm an engineer and do tend to disassemble everything she is right.   

I always enjoy a double entendre.   Very dry humour.

Oh, wait, this is an American forum.  My mistake.

I post info to inform and serve......why so aggressive in response? If you don’t like my info, just ignore it. When you take your ego sword out and start swinging, you are not in a high vibration.....Do you love yourself, do you love me? We are the same. I have info that some people find worthwhile. If you do not find my info worthwhile.....then that is fine......but why FIGHT about it? Have I said a bad word against anyone? Is this a band of fan boys defending their turf? Please look in the mirror. There is no turf.....there is no one that owns a thread. Everything can be said by anyone. Threads meander all over the place.....and they should, as that is how we learn stufff. More opinons (especially by people who have listened to stuff)....the better. Of course, the forum rules apply.....and to everyone.

Have a blessed weekend.

@ricevs

No fighting for turf going on here, just pointing out your very poor form in posts. Your very poor form in making recommendations when you havent heard what you are recommending.

@tinear123,

   Very very nice system…..  Can’t wait to hear your take. Those Coincident Amps are one of my Favorite 300b and with the right speakers are simply awesome. 
 

    I wasn’t able to put the amps against the XA 60.8’s today. Friend had an emergency. But I did spend a few hours at the Dealer. He really enjoyed them. He said he was shocked how dynamic they are and how they grabbed the Magnepans. They had total control over a speaker the dips to 2 ohms and measures out 84.5 db . Magnepan states 86 db… Some HIFI reviews state actual specs around 85. He said most 100 watt amps can’t do that. The soundstage was yuge. Bass was perfect. Accurate and clear. Pianos crisp and real. Cymbals sparkle and brushes defined. The music was accurate and true to all aspects. Which in itself is very impressive. The Maggie’s weren’t in the room. You couldn’t pinpoint them across the entire back of the room. Am sure if they were box type traditional speakers you’d clearly hear one over the other as you transverse the back of the room. These are very transparent and organic at the same time. Not bright on Maggie’s at all. Or any harsh leading edges. The attack and decay was what it should be as well. It just doesn’t do anything offensive or bad. Just for fun I cranked them up to see if I could shake the amps. They never broke a sweat. Never got warm, Never strained to control the Maggie’s. And they rocked the house.