@pstores
Yes, you fail to understand the distinction between opinion and fact, as evidenced by your comments indicating there is a "right" and "wrong" and your need to validate your own opinions by having others share your opinions. I have failed to understand that no amount of explaining the logical fallacy you operate under is going to turn the light on. My mistake.
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@pstores
I am not talking about specs. I am talking about your deeply rooted need for affirmation and the uselessness of other's opinions when it comes to evaluating equipment.
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Real KNOWLEDGE in audio.......is how something sounds
How something "sounds" is subjective, an opinion, not a fact, and thus not "real knowledge", which is something that has meaning beyond one's self.
You can't seem to get beyond the simple truth that your experienced subjective reality and beliefs are nothing but opinions and are no more valid than anyone else's. The guru complex.
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@soix
because no one has any opinion or experience that are useful to him so why even bother? Leave him to reading his spec sheets
I wouldn't say no one has an opinion or experience that I wouldn't find useful but I can say with confidence that none of yours would be of use.
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@holmz
learned people
Seems a shortage of such in this thread which is overpopulated with small minded intellectually feeble name callers who can neither rationally defend their position nor accept any idea which might challenge their misconceptions.
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Another brand of class D monoblocks loose sound quality when stacked.
Do these Atma-Sphere loose any sound quality when stacked?
Yes, absolutely. No, of course not. Maybe, it depends on who you ask.
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I don't believe any type of harmonic distortion from an amplifier is "desirable".
Some like the added distortion, others prefer the truth. Personal preference.
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@kuribo negative innuendo may not be a good strategy for it.
It's not a strategy, it's an observation.
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Peachtree GAN 4000 over the ATMA any day for the $$.....Atmasphere overpriced for their sound !....Better Music for thousands LESS....sorry Bro.
Atmasphere may indeed be overpriced, that's a matter of opinion, but at least it is properly designed and doesn't have load varying frequency response (a fact) like the Peachtree. That failing was addressed 25 years ago by competent class d designers (fact). Really unthinkable that a modern class d amp would have this shortcoming (opinion).
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Newton's laws were fact until Einstein came along, so some facts aren't universal.
Not facts, theories.
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I am not "critical and dismissive of actually listening and judging" ...
That statement is inconsistent with this:
Whether or not it "outperforms" other class d amps can only be judged by the specs.
And that’s how logic works.
No, it doesn’t. People can certainly listen and form their own subjective opinions as to whether or not they like amp A, or prefer amp A over amp B. As I said, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Opinions are not facts.
When someone says amp A out performs amp B, they are making an objective statement as there are parameters that can be measured and compared objectively. An amp is by definition a device that takes a small signal and outputs a larger version, by most standards, the more accurately the signal is enlarged, the better the amp’s performance. We can certainly compare the input to the output and measure the differences, and from those differences make objective comparisons.
Many people actually prefer an amp that adds certain distortions to the output. Some don’t. Subjective preferences don’t have to, and often fail to, align with the actual objective performance.
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I am still waiting to see the measurements of this amp. Have they been published yet?
Whether or not it "outperforms" other class d amps can only be judged by the specs. Comments otherwise are purely subjective opinion which have no factual basis.
Personally, I commend the designer for producing his own design. So many just take oem modules and stuff them in a box.
I will say though that I will be greatly surprised if they perform anywhere near the products designed for Hypex and Purifi by Bruno Putzeys who has been designing state of the art class d amps for over 25 years and holds numerous patents.
When one can buy a complete 2 channel Purifi amp for $1000, one also needs to wonder about the cost of these amps in comparison to those made by Hypex and Purifi. I doubt they perform 5 times better and even if they did, the distortion of the Purifi is already below the audible threshold for most people. Why pay 5x the money for something you can’t hear? Of course they may have a distortion profile that some find enjoyable, but that is a matter of taste, not pure performance.
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@charles1dad
No, I am not "critical and dismissive of actually listening and judging", what I said was that there is no way to compare these amps to any others in a meaningful way when it is done on a subjective basis. Saying they "outperform" something else has no meaning to others when all it is someone’s subjective opinion. To be a valid statement of fact, it must be based on objective criteria. Seems this simple logical truth is just too much for some to handle.
One can’t argue with opinion, everyone is entitled to one. By all means listen but let's be clear- opinions are not facts. I am simply making that distinction.
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Okay, if that’s your position, that’s fine. I don’t believe that people find objective criteria too much to accept. Rather it is inadequate in determining the sonic performance of a given audio product. Anyway, thanks and I appreciate you sharing your perspective on this forum.
What are objective measurements missing, other than subjectivity?
Could it be that while we can objectively measure how well the output compares to the input, we simply can’t account for taste? Is it so hard to comprehend that people’s tastes can differ and that some people just happen to prefer some distortion added in? Why must we assume that there is some mysterious unknown physical phenomena that just can’t be captured by modern science inherent in audio equipment, be it an amp, cables, or whatever, that has to exist to explain the tremendous range of opinions about audio gear when the simplest explanation is that the phenomena isn’t in the equipment but in ourselves?
Is the need to have our opinions validated, confirmed and shared by others so great that we need to invent baseless rationales in order to be "right"? Are we so insecure that we need to seek out the opinions of others rather than be satisfied with our own subjective impressions? Amazing, isn't it, how people will take to heart others subjective impressions of audio gear as if there is truth in them for themselves but wouldn't ever think of letting someone else season their steak or order their meal for them at a restaurant...
It really is ok to just like how something sounds, regardless of whether or not it is objectively superior. And it’s ok for others to not like it.
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Opinions are not facts even in the context here. All you have with any 100% subjective topic is subjective belief, the only "fact" is your belief of your preference and opinion. Facts are universal not individual.
Right on.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan — 'You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.'
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@kuribo But you can’t tell how an amp really sounds just by looking at measurements either. You can have two amps that measure similarly but sound completely different. Why? Because we don’t have near enough the measurements that can measure everything that has an impact on sound.
No, you can't tell with any certainty how an amp sounds strictly from measurements but you can tell certain things about it's performance, whether it adds distortion, how much, where and when, how it's performance varies with frequency and load impedance, etc.
Sound similarly to whom? To everyone? Doubtful and not realistic. There are too many biases and other factors that enter into subjective impressions.
What measurements are we lacking? Please explain what it is that we are not measuring. Just because something sounds the same to you doesn't mean it is the same, or that it will sound the same to someone else. Of course, there are things humans can't hear, and it is possible this lack of hearing can cause things to "sound" the same, if the differences are beyond audibility.
I ask again, why does it have to be a lack in what we can measure, why can't it be a difference in subjective perception?
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We just have to accept the sonic preferences and experience based opinions as truth for that person.
That’s my point. If we want to compare anything meaningfully and rationally, we have to argue the facts, not opinions. Measurements, assuming they are done properly with functioning equipment, are not opinions- they are objective fact. How one chooses to interpret them can become objective and a matter of opinion.
How something sounds is 100% subjective and tied to one’s unique ears, room, associated gear and preferences. In fact, the only absolute truth of how something sounds, is found in one’s actual experience with the piece and their resulting opinion. That’s it.
Exactly. What others think they hear, while truth for them, doesn’t mean it is truth for anyone else. This is why all the fluffy talk about "deeper body", "better tone", "blacker background", etc. is utterly meaningless to anyone other than the speaker, yet people continue as if it actually means something to others...
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The fact of the matter is, measurements don't even begin to inform one of how something is going to sound, just that it will meet the low standards of conventional wisdom.
Someone doesn't know much about measurements. They may not tell you if you will like it, but they certainly can at least point to how something will sound based on the distortion spectra. Just ask Ralph, who designed the Atmosphere amp under discussion.
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Sounds like someone is having fun with semantics at this thread's expense.
Quite the contrary.
From the distortion spectra, research has shown that certain distortion profiles will produce certain "sound"- compare the distortion spectra of many tube amps vs ss a/b vs class d and you find many describe the tube sound as "warm", "rich", "lush", etc. Class d as "neutral", "clear", etc. Certain harmonic profiles lead to similar perceptions, thus, from the measured performance, we can indeed make certain predictions on how an amp will "sound". Will everyone "like" that sound? No. This isn't semantics, it's psychoacoustics, an admittedly soft science.
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My own extensive experience with my Voyager GaN 350 (said to be the same as the Peachtree) is that is chameleon-like
lol, yeah, with a load dependent frequency response, I would expect quite the ride....
"Class D amplifiers have a low pass filter that can interact with the load if not designed well and that is what we have here. The impact falls clearly in audible band. This would be OK for a budget amplifier in $100 range but not in this class. Depending on what speaker you hook up to this amplifier, the highs may be exaggerated or filtered."
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Would be nice as well to see some data plots....
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To design a class D amp you can’t just wing it by plopping parts in; you have to do the math and understand the engineering behind it.
An embarrassment that this even needs mentioning. A sad fact there is always someone out there looking to make money off of the ignorance and insecurity of others.
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How about changing the op amp on the input to a discrete one? Discrete op amps are generally more real and open sounding.
Too bad there is no puke emoji here...
How about you market your own snake oil amp and leave the science and engineering to the professionals?
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The tweaks I suggest are universal.....every amp in every price category would improve it's sound to the same degree ....everything has a sound.
One hand clapping...
The guru's credo: "everything has a sound and I can hear everything...just trust me..."
#zerocredibility indeed....
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I want people to have better sound....that is why I share......what is your purpose here?
Of course I listen, I just don’t put much stock in the fabulous, unsupported claims posted as fact by a biased, self interested, guru constantly peddling his wares on a non-commercial venue.
We each have our own truth, which isn't always the same truth for each of us. Your problem is you think your truth is the only truth, or at least act that way as it is fundamental to your scam. You might garner more respect if you actually designed an amp on your own rather than messed with solid, well engineered products of others, advertising your "improvements" as "truth", when they are unsupported by any actual legitimate testing. You are a living testament to audio nervousa, numerous listening biases, and ignorance.
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Of course, if you do listening tests with total prejudice then you will never hear anything.
True, as is the converse, which you are living proof of: if you do listening tests with total prejudice then you will hear everything.
Who are you to say what I have and haven't tried, tested, and listened to? You haven't a clue.
Plenty of people have tried a lot of goofy things- some swear they hear a difference, others swear they can't. This isn't proof positive that what you claim is "truth" in a real, objective way. There have been plenty of bona fide scientific tests of cables, etc., etc., and most results show no differences. Of course then people like you like to jump in with "you aren't measuring the right things!" or "it can't be measured!". What if the differences are actually not in the article being tested but in the listener's head? The simplest explanation is usually the correct one and when modern science which can measure just about anything to levels beyond human cognizance, the far more likely explanation to why some people can hear a difference and others can't is simply that perceptions differ between people. There are a list of reasons why this can be that have been rigorously tested. All you offer is "trust me, it's TRUE"! Sorry, that's religion, and I don't need a profiteering guru to tell me what I can and can't hear.
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While I agree with many of your points, consider that ALL aftermarket improvements to engines/suspensions...
There are improvements, then there are modifications to suit the end user. Improvements can be proven to actually improve the performance in an objective way- more horsepower, faster lap times, etc. The kinds of modifications the tweak guru always proposes do not improve the performance, most actually degrade it. They do modify the sound, which some may subjectively enjoy, but others may not. Therefore, we can't call them improvements, and since there is no way to objectively prove they improve performance, they are simple modifications that some may like and others may not. Think of racing stripes on your car, or mag wheels, not turbochargers or ground effects.
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You have no idea what you are talking about since you have never listened to wires, fuses, etc
No, it is you making assumptions about what I have and haven't listened to- you are the one with no idea.
Wires, etc., do not have a "sound"- there are inanimate objects that pass electric current. The sound is all in your head.
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The trick here is understanding that the measurements, if the correct ones are actually made, affect what you hear in a very direct way.
Measurements are what they are-data-they don’t affect what anyone "hears" as they are read, not listened to, unless you are referring to biases induced from the reading of measurements. Testing has indicated correlations between certain distortion spectra and "averaged" or group perceptions but there has been no perfect correlation established between measurements and human response on an individual basis because at the end of the day, you just can’t account for taste.
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When we finally come up with a machine that measures the sound differences in wires, jacks, op amps, resistors, inductors, etc, into infinity....that will be nice
Wires, jacks, etc. don’t emit sound. There are no sound differences in wires, jacks, op amps, etc., only differences in electrical characteristics/parameters. We do have machines that can measure them. What we can’t account for is human subjective preferences. Whether or not a change is an improvement or not isn’t in the equipment, it’s in the perceptions of the listener. "Better" or "worse" when it is applied to sound is subjective. Get over it.
Your goal is to sell people on your mods so you can earn a profit. You tell people your mods make the equipment sound better. You preach how they are universal, blah blah blah, but it's just your opinion. You pray on the insecurity of others and play your siren song...All for money. How loving.
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So your "mods", to the extent they make any difference, only improve the sound *relative to your opinion* - nothing remotely universal about it - because every mod you do moves the sound away from the intent of the designer. You are setting yourself up as the universal arbiter of differences in *preference*, while also impugning the competence of every product designer out there. Good luck getting anyone to buy into that.
Bravo!
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Why is the power supply not a switch mode? I see a large selection of supposedly well designed, medical grade SMPS, by Traco or Meanwell. Yet, I see class A or class D amps not using these. Why?
Most class d amp makers do use smps. There are a handful that use an old school traditional tranny, bridge, etc. If your amp module design is well done with a high PSRR, it makes little difference, according to experts like Bruno Putzeys, who uses smps exclusively with ncore and purifi. They have many good points but some still believe an amp isn't any good if it doesn't weigh 50 kg.
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there is NO common knowledge
Wrong, there is a lot of common knowledge. There is no common opinion on what sounds "best" thus a market full of products of different designs, classes, power supplies etc. It's not a lack of knowledge but a wealth of knowledge that allows manufacturers to produce products that appeal to a broad market full of consumers with widely varying tastes.
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I’ll put money on that he can’t make an Atma-Sphere amp sound better
There is no "better", only different, when it comes to subjective value judgments. No doubt the tweak guru could place Ralph's GaN amp on a pile of horse manure and someone would say it sounds "better" sitting on horse manure than it does sitting on cow manure. But that "better" is only true for that listener and has no meaning to others. Opinions based on subjective perceptions are not facts! Your opinion about how amps sound is no more valid than the tweak guru's opinion to others- they all are meaningless outside a population of one. Of course, you aren't trying to profit off of your opinions and aren't claiming to possess "universal" knowledge...
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@pstores
Sure, I could look up the patent, or the designer could explain it himself and provide his take on what problem it was designed to solve and why.
With all due respect, while your experience with a wide variety of amps is impressive on its face, all it really means to me is that you have tried a wide variety of amps. I can perhaps assume you are confident in your choice based on that wide audition experience. Your preferences and experiences can not be extrapolated to predict my own, as such, they are useless to me and others in that regard.
I have read and watched the interviews and understand the why- I am more interested in the how. There are many traditional tube amp companies who have seen the future and are now marketing class d amps. Not hard to understand the why.
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Concentrating just on GaN amps, the observations made for Atmosphere GaN monos may well be applied to a number of other GaN amps. I honestly can see no proof of superiority except that I read a number of subjective expressions. I readily believe that Atmosphere d amps sound wonderful, and would really like to know more on how much better are they than the other GaN amps. This thread, so far, didn’t help me in this. Too many subjective points of view.
How do you define "superiority"? Of course all you have read here are subjective opinions because the vast majority of people here either believe their opinion actually has relevance to those besides themselves or they believe the opinions of others have relevance to themselves. As I have said repeatedly, the only possible way to actually compare amplifiers in a way that can be logically and rationally valid is by looking at the specs. The specs won't tell you if you will like the sound, but they do provide useful data about the performance, design, and can give hints about the sound. As such, they are a good starting point. Any discussion outside of the measured performance is simply subjective opinion and a waste of one's time when it comes to how you will feel about the sound.
The only way to make any judgments of how you will judge the sound of an amp (or any other audio component) in your system, in your room, is to experience it first hand. The opinions of others, regardless of their experience, are not guaranteed to be yours no matter how hard they try to convince you that they "know" some mystical "truth" because they have been "listening to wire" for 40 years.
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@pstores
No doubt that will take it to 11!
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@jerryg123
Possibly, or maybe avoids answering their questions. Hard to say, isn’t it? Maybe letting him speak for himself rather than speculating or making unsupported assumptions would be the prudent course to take.
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Can we please move the measurement vs perception distraction to another thread so we can focus on Atma-Sphere's new amp here.
Can you please explain how exactly there can be any meaningful discussion of the new amp here regarding it's performance when we have nothing but subjective opinions expressed? There are no measurements at present available from Ralph to have any rationale discussion of the amps performance. Subjective impressions are not facts, are not able to be compared, contrasted, debated, or relied upon. There is nothing to be learned from second hand opinions, why waste the time?
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I really don’t care what others think of the sound of these amps, regardless of how many owners praise them- there are probably billions of people who love ketchup and yet I am not a fan.
I would like to learn more about the engineering and design of these amps. It has been said that there was a patent awarded for some aspect of the design- I would like to know more about exactly what was patented. I would like to see the measurements and wonder why they haven’t been published yet when this product has been years in the making- it takes very little time to upload a few files. I would like to hear the designer’s take on how his class d design differs from those of Hypex and Purifi and at 3 to 4 times the price, what they offer over the Hypex and Purifi products that makes them worth the considerable difference. I would like to know why he decided to design his own class d modules, especially in light of the fact that it is no trivial matter and a completely different task than designing a tube amp....I would like to know why the designer choose GaNfets over standard fets and what advantages he believes they offer at his operating frequency over standard fets....
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@juanmanuelfangioii
The fact is I have praised other class d amps as well designed- Orchard for one. I respect and admire good engineering and state of the art results regardless of the name attached. Your efforts to characterize my admiration as some sort of personality worship are immature and show you to be a shallow person not worthy of consideration.
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@juanmanuelfangioii
I haven’t put Ralph down, I have said I would like to see measurements and hear about his patent, design, value proposition, etc. All very fair game for a $5000 piece of equipment. Besides, he’s more than capable of speaking for himself and hardly needs you or anyone else to defend him.
Admiration is based on a subjective assessment, so no, it really isn't possible to admire objectively. I have given a rationale for my dislike of certain amp designs. Perhaps you need to reread my criticism of these amps to see than in fact I have criticized their out of date design which results in a load variant frequency response. That is objective fact.
Yes, I have put down some amps that frankly are more a marketing scam than state of the art engineering. I give praise where praise is due. Orchard is an excellent example.
@twoleftears
"Between Ralph’s refutation of ricevs’s pointless proposed modifications, and the Cook’s Tour of the inside of the amp that he gives in the San Francisco video (posted somewhere above), there’s plenty of technical information out there. If you can’t accept that they sound good without seeing a suite of measurements, then you’re in the wrong forum"
Sorry, there has been precious little discussion of technical side of this amp, none of which answers the questions or addresses the issues I put forth earlier.
And no, I can’t accept that they sound good without hearing them myself with my equipment and my room. I have made it clear, repeatedly, that I am neither interested in, nor place any value, on the subjective impressions of others using the amp in their system and room. Perhaps you missed that the first 12 times. I would like to see the measurements to see how it performs compared to state of the art class d amp designs available from Hypex, Purifi, and Orchard- measurements show how well it does what an amp is made for: taking a small signal and making it large. I would like to hear more about the patent and why I should consider this amp at 3 times the price of current state of the art amps, among other things. No, measurements will not tell me if I find it pleasing to listen to but they will tell me things that are important to MY evaluation. I don’t need your permission nor approval to form my opinions.
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@ghasley
thanks for the link. I would like to hear specifics from Ralph on the benefits and advantages of his inventions as they pertain to his class d audio amp.
My set-up has no informative value or relevance to anyone other than myself. I see no useful purpose in sharing it. Sorry.
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@juanmanuelfangioii
No reason to drop him a line or to go to another forum. His amp is the topic of discussion in this thread and he has participated. No reason to not direct questions regarding his product in a thread about his amp to him here. But thanks for the suggestion.
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@ghasley
Fear has nothing to do with it. I've explained why it is irrelevant. I would hope that you would have the grace to leave it at that.
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@pstores
I can see you have a deeply rooted need for affirmation. Does outside confirmation from others make the amps sounds better to you? If people say they don't like them, does that make you like them less?
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@pstores
40 years ago I learned you don’t listen to specs and measurements. Some of the best spec’ed gear sounds sterile, dry and lifeless.
Again, that’s your experience and your opinion. Some of the best spec’ed gear sounds anything but sterile, dry, and lifeless to others, so again, there is no universal truth to your statement, it’s just more opinion. It means nothing. Who cares how many people like something? Doesn’t mean anything to me. Because 1 billion people like ketchup does it mean I will? No, I don’t like ketchup. When it comes to personal preferences, no, professional reviews, consumer reviews, or any other sort addressing subjective matters of taste don’t have to mean anything and can never answer the ultimate question on a personal level- will I like it in my system in my room?
If you like it, that's really all that should matter to you. Whether or not other people share your opinion is not something you should be concerned about. Tastes differ, that's a fact.
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@pstores
It's not a circular conversation. It's me trying to have a rational, logic based conversation with a wall. Shame on me.
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@invalid
The designer did use measurements, but I’m sure he didn’t use just the measurements that are normally published in the manufacturer spec sheet.
Who said he just used measurements?
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