Today I picked up my Atma-Sphere Class D Amps. These aren’t broken in yet. And they are simply amazing. I’ve listen to a lot of High End Class D. Some that cost many times what Atma-Sphere Class D costs. I wasn’t a fan of any of them. But these amps are amazing. I really expected to hate them. So my expectations were low. The Details are of what I’ve never heard from any other amps. They are extremely neutral. To say the realism is is extremely good is a gross understatement. They are so transparent it’s scary. These amps just grab you and suck you into the music. After I live with them some and get them broken in. And do some comparisons to some other high end Amps Solid State, Tubes and Class D’s, also in other systems I’ll do a more comprehensive review. But for now, these are simply amazing amps.. Congrats to Ralph and his team. You guys nailed on these.
I suppose it’s still possible to have an opinion without some folks getting angry? Ralph, myself, and all Agoners have thoughts and opinions. No reason to make fun of or attack these opinions. This forum is simply a place to share them.
I will add to my opinion here. Class D integrated amps with tube preamp sections will also grow in popularity. Tube preamps will continue to sell well in the future.
Amplifier performance is also held back by the amplifier itself completely independent of the speakers. We are not producing flawless and perfect amplifiers. Yes, how amplifiers interact with imperfect speakers also plays a critical role sonically. No doubt.
@fsonicsmith, no need to stop posting on this thread, but it would be helpful and kind if you worked on your demeanor and respected opinions that differ from yours.
I agree with @grannyring . Class D GaN FET (Orchard Audio Ultra) is the future and all Tube, Class A, Class A/B Amplifiers are antiquated Dinosaurs ! But a high quality DAC (PS Audio DirectStream Sr.) and a highly resolving Tube Preamp )BAT VK-50SE fresh form the Factory with new Mundorf Paper in OIl Capacitors - I couldn’t afford the Transformer upgrade) ARE A MUST !!
Am a big A-S fan and joyfully use his MP-1 preamp.
Since “going home” to Quad ESL 57s, I have cycled through several amps to find the best match for the Quads.
I have the chance to put money down to get on the waiting list (6-8 weeks) for the A-S Class D. May still do that, but have bought an ARC Ref 80S.
I was floored by the sound of the ARC Ref 160S at a friend’s. The best system I have heard. Was so engaging that I couldn’t not listen.
So far, I have decided that the ARC Ref sound may have attractive “tube qualities” that Ralph’s do not. That is, a level of organic/real.
And even though price does not represent quality, the $16K Ref 80S should be in a different league from the $5400 A-S.
This is only a guess. Not yet hearing the A-S amps. But still thinking that those tube qualities are yet to be captured by a SS amp.
As a previous die hard SET guy, that sound is called sweet. To non tube guys, it is called colored.
We both know Ralph is a consummate stereo equipment designer.
So, for me, I have put my deposit on his new Class D amps.
The big question, as a Vandersteen owner, is the fact that it uses Feedback. Ask any Vandy diehard, and you'll know that amps with Zero Feedback work best for these speakers.
So, am going to give these a try, and also try to get my dealer to set up a demo comparing them to his Zero Feedbackamps, if possible.
@mglikyou maybe very shocked…. If you get a chance roll a set of these in your system.
@bluorion I am running a Atma-Sphere MP-3 with Vcaps, Caddocks, and dampening. Running a Aqua LaScala DAC, Innous phoenix Reclocker as we speak with Roon. Much of what I listen to to Hi Rez…. It’s pretty damn good… compared to the other Class D amps which I’ve had in my system. These are definitely the best. And probably in the center of the price points of the others. They in my opinion are better than the Class A SS I’ve also had in my system. I’ve listed all the amps I’ve had in the system earlier on in this post.
I have been a member here for ten years and I have just had my first post ever removed by the mods.
I had a short quote from a S'Phile interview with Charles Hansen which I duly attributed by author and source so that could not be the reason.
I had a photo of the inside of the amp that is the subject of this thread and commented that the parts could not justify the price. That could not be the reason. Oh, yes, I think it was.
I was never remotely involved in the ugliness of a certain poster. I bring that up only because of this- Tinear123 has a very nice system and I would be most interested to hear his long term assessment of this amp. He says he won't be posting because of the aforementioned ugliness. That's a shame. I hope you, Tinear123, should you see this, will reconsider.
Nice pic of your Class D amp. I noticed that you're using a toroid instead of the Hypex power supply you used in your earlier version of the amp. The Atma-Sphere Class D amp uses a toroid as well. What difference in sound do you notice when comparing the toroid to the Hypex?
I had a photo of the inside of the amp that is the subject of this thread and commented that the parts could not justify the price.
@fsonicsmith, how many other audiophile products (that many folks purchase and enjoy their sound) would this statement be true for? Plus, how do you factor in the cost of custom designed and manufactured circuits/technology? Do you know how much Atmasphere (or other manufacturers with custom tech) spend to develop such tech? Unless you have listened to the amp in question and compared it to many other similarly priced products, your statement seems off-target from my perspective.
Here is a photo of the inside of my DAC, which after owning various models from SimAudio, Berkeley, Bricasti, RME, and Mojo Audio is my favorite so far, it also costs way more than I ever thought I would spend on a digital front end and it has next to nothing under its cover. Does its lack of parts justify its MSRP?
So far I find the Atmasphere Monos to be in line performance wise with my slightly more expensive Pass XA30.8; I have not popped the cover off my Pass to compare them as in the end it doesn't really matter to me since I'm using my ears to decide which amp I prefer.
@ddafoein my system I found the Atma-Sphere Class D was slightly better than the Pass XA30.8. I am hoping soon to put the XA 60.8’s in my system soon. And will be trying them a friends system with the XA60.8’s. But that’s my system and a few of us opinions. We had shared to the Atma-Sphere was slightly better all the way around. Was the your perspective in your system?
Amplifier design and amplifier performance has been dictated by the limitations of loudspeakers. There is no perfect amplifier because there is no perfect loudspeaker.
[snip]
Think of an amp as a complimentary solution to a problem elsewhere in the chain, not the source of the problem and impediment to sonic bliss.
Your first statement above isn't correct. Amplifier designers do not limit their designs on account of a limitation in loudspeakers- everyone I know in the business, whether tube or solid state, is trying to wring the most performance out of their product that they can. Amps aren't perfect for their own reasons, for example no-one is going to ever get rid of distortion no matter the speaker.
IME/IMO when you try to work synergies in your system you wind up with more distortion. For example bright amplifiers are often so due to unmasked higher ordered harmonics; they might get paired with dull speakers in an attempt to be tonally neutral. Since the brightness comes from distortion rather than a frequency response error the result is often less than stellar- there will be some musical cuts that will bring out the weakness in this approach sooner or later! Better that each bit in the system stand on its merits rather than its weaknesses.
I had a photo of the inside of the amp that is the subject of this thread and commented that the parts could not justify the price.
FWIW our pricing tends to be less expensive than our competition because we price to a formula rather than what the market will bear. You really have to just actually price everything out. Don't forget to include labor (and all that comes with that); all the work including the board assemblies is done by hand. You can see from the splash page on our website what that is about. A class D amp is a very different thing from a tube amplifier but once you understand the differences (for example, surface mount components) you can see that craftsmanship is still a thing.
What preamps work well with these class D amps?
The gain of the class D and the input impedance (100K balanced or single-ended) are both easy for any preamp made.
First of all I want back the more than 90 minutes of my life I spent reading this thread. And I blame @kuribo for his stalwart refusal to accept that Ralph might have a different design priorities, marketing strategy, and business plan then what he believes to be the correct way all companies should act for his benefit. Also I’d like to give @atmaspherea medal for being so long suffering, patient and informative.
Also, @kuribo please don’t read my post because I’m afraid it will probably contain things evil, venal and subjective that would definitely not be worth your time :)
I actually slogged through this because I have some decent experience with the products in question and wanted to see the background before I posted.
I’ve had in my system probably close to a dozen digital amps, going back 20 years to Spectron, Ice Power Amps, Hypex Module Amps etc.. I’ve also many owned super high end solid state and tube amps. Until I heard the VTV I was never completely happy with the Class D amps, for many of the reason people say: grey/cloudy, flat lacking transparency, and just a boring presentation.
I’ve owned a VTV Purifi stereo amp with the SparkOS input buffer for almost 2 years. I also had the Orchard Audio Starkrimson GaN stereo amp for a month evaluation and I’ve had my Atma-Sphere Class Ds now for almost 3 months. The AS Class D significantly betters any digital amp I’ve heard in my system.
I really love the VTV amp. For the price (now about $1,400) it is pretty much without peer! The Starkrimson ($2500) was so similar to the VTV in sound if I wasn’t listening carefully I’d not be able to tell them apart. On careful listening though, I felt the Orchard sounded a bit recessed and did not have as much macro slam and dynamics as the VTV. Imaging was further behind the speakers with the Strarkrimson, and things like horns as stuff did not have as much dimensionality. The Orchard has a bit more overall bass energy, but did not have the taughtness/ fastness of the VTV. I am making these differences sound much bigger than they were. These differences though are more to do with what my taste is than big differences in quality. I tend to like more vibrant dynamic presentations. I think the Orchard would probably be an excellent match to a big ballsy sounding rock and roll speaker like some Klipsh etc. The Orchard was just a bit more polite and reticent.
Both amps were dead silent, incredibly dynamic and without grain or brightness. And the bass is awesome. They do vocals amazingly well. They have wonderful tone on acoustic instruments, especially with things like woodwinds and brass (the Orchard did those things just a touch better than the VTV). They have a palpable reach out and touch quality to the music that is addictive. Highs are airy and extended. They don’t sound harsh or have any fine grain, or greyness/whiteness, flatness or sound boring. While I wouldn’t say they sound like tubes, there is a clarity to the midrange that reminds me of them.
For a $1,400 amp, the VTV Purifi will make many many people happy.
The Atma-Sphere Class D amps are in another realm altogether though. Take everything I said about the above two amps and add the following. They are quieter and bring out more detail. The blackness between notes etc is replaced by more acoustic information than I’ve heard on my favorite recordings. They are significantly more transparent which reveals more music information and fine touches. On the music I know best, I've discovered new instruments/backup singers in the background. They are incredibly even handed and neutral in a way that puts the focus on the music (they are not sterile). The bass (which took many hours of break in to fully mature) is simply incredible, I am hearing more in the 25hz to 35hz range than I’ve ever heard from my speakers. The speed of attack is so instantaneous and fast it adds to the feeling of transparency. the tonality of instruments is also excellent as well. The soundstage goes further back and is very defined. Even my TV streaming source sounds more detailed with more depth. Dynamics are increased. Movies really pound and soar with the right soundtrack. I’ve heard some Atma-Sphere setups over the years, and by my recollection, there is a bit of similarity of sound. Mainly that transparency and even-handedness reminds me of past experiences with Ralphs amps.
I would say that for my musical and audio values, the Atma-Sphere’s sound twice as good as the VTV :) So I think they are a VERY good value.
My reply today is for anyone who may not be totally impressed with Ralph's GaN amps. I don't have them, but I do own a GaN amp (MSRP $3000) for about a year. I have been powering it with a Chinese counterfeit Odin 2 PC and connected from my dac/pre with a Odin 2 XLR. My transport is a Audiolab 6000 (IMO, it is a much better trans than some say, and likely because of their cable choices) with a fake Odin Gold PC. For a couple months I have been thinking about switching them, which I finally did last night. WOW! Today I am ordering another Odin Gold
My reply today is for anyone who may not be totally impressed with Ralph's GaN amps. I don't have them, but I do own a GaN amp (MSRP $3000) for about a year. I have been powering it with a Chinese counterfeit Odin 2 PC and connected from my dac/pre with a Odin 2 XLR. My transport is a Audiolab 6000 (IMO, it is a much better trans than some say, and likely because of their cable choices) with a fake Odin Gold PC. For a couple months I have been thinking about switching them, which I finally did last night. WOW! Today I am ordering another Odin Gold
hth
It sounds like the cables are better than the amps?🤣
holmz go back to ASR where you wear the badge of honor as a super donor
I am a not Donor, much less a super donor.
This thread about Atmasphere amps, and Ralph would likely be the best person to opine on the power cord with his amps.
If I was not seriously considering these atmasphere amps I would probably not be as interested in hearing Ralph’s comments.
You guys are like herpes just wont go away. And no I do not have personal experience.
^This^ is like me asking questions on how a power cord can work, and people say “Try it and see,” or “one has to experience it”… How can you comment on the Herpes with having it?
But what if Ralph said, these cords work, or measure better, on my amps?
That would be germane to the amps and interesting to hear.
Maybe we should ask @atmasphere? And avoid descending into extension cords, which have nothing to do the power cords on these amps...
in my system I found the Atma-Sphere Class D was slightly better than the Pass XA30.8.
Holy smoke people! Let that sink in. That Pass amp is a current, state-of-the art true class A power amp designed by one of a handful of the most revered and respected SS power amp designers who ever lived. SRP is similar but cost of ownership is not: while idling the XA space heater burns wall current at the rate of about 270W; think of 2.7 100W incandescent light bulbs. I presume Ralph's Cass D burns about 10W if that much.
I...commented that the parts could not justify the price.
What exactly and specifically is the parts cost? Did the deleted post contain an exact and specific accounting of the parts cost? What date was that accounting performed? Is the poster familiar with parts cost inflation in the past year?
If the post lacks the # requested above, I submit to readers a potential the poster conveniently ignored for the deletion: there was no factual basis for the opinion expressed as a fact.
Even if the # was posted: what is the exact and specific threshold for ratio of parts cost to SRP beyond which a product is deemed "failure?" Readers need to know this ratio to confirm the poster is being consistent and not being derogatory for some hidden agenda.
Also, does every single audio item the poster own meet his own criteria?
The omission of all this data surely justifies the deletion, a personal attack on the product masquerading as an innocent opinion.
Lastly, to imply that any product’s SRP is justified solely by passing the value test described herein is simply wrong. To be polite I won’t say such test is naive, but I can imagine some thinking that.
Thank you for your fantastic post. Surely this type of post with so much personal experience with a good number of the most relevant currently produced amps is literally the definition of advice that "money can't buy." No pro review I've ever read (that I can think of) has so much valuable info for direct comparison.
Amir @ Audio Science Review has good test gear and has tested the Purifi. Purifi tests at the very highest level as does an amp I referred to and owned. Oh, if we could only read test results and make purchases based solely on these tests! But we can't because I owned one of those amps and Ralph's class D is at least 1.5 to 2 clear steps up the food chain in audio performance. (Maybe Ralph's class D would test similarly but I won't be surprised if it does not.)
I recently had here a superb $40k DAC and pair of class A $60k/pr mono blocks. I know the designer, who told me personally that he could improve the DAC's static test specs but would not because it would degrade its audio and musical performance.
Maybe we should ask @atmasphere? And avoid descending into extension cords, which have nothing to do the power cords on these amps...
Power cords affect audio equipment due to voltage drops occurring at 60Hz but also at much higher frequencies.
The more feedback you have in an amplifier the greater its ability to reject anything that isn't the signal, such as noise,
As a result, the class D is relatively unaffected by power cords at low power levels. But as the power is increased the power cord would be more important. It will not affect the amp nearly so much as power cords affect our tube amps!
Well, Ralph has outdone himself and shipped my new Atma Class D amps (with black face plates) sooner than thought. As I am in the middle of putting all my gardens to bed and hopefully overwintering the non hardy material, I have to put their installation on the back burner for a little while.
The amps are a bit more compact than comparable Class A, A/B amps, but are quite heavy, -Something I was not expecting, as many Class D amps seem to be quite smaller than these. But, I haven't had any experience with other Class D amps and have relied upon only visual depictions.
Once I get them 'run in', I hope to visit my dealer, John Rutan, and schedule a time to demo them, and compare them with other amplifiers.-Of course, if Johnny is willing. I really want to do this as I have heard so much about Class D, and know Ralph is a great designer who would only release a product if he felt it to be of deserved quality.
Who knows, maybe my MA-1's will be for sale, soon.
Mine arrived today. FedEx signed my name for them so I knew they would be on my porch. Hurried home and I was correct, They were on my porch.
Changed out Atma-Sphere M-60's for Atma-Sphere class D. Listened for 5 minutes and left. Seem extended on both ends. A little conjested on vocals. Best class d I have heard. We shall see if any warts appear.
It seems to me that designers who build Class D amps from scratch with their own discrete circuits are the players to watch and buy from. Ralph of Atma-Sphere, AGD, and others fall into this category. Those using off the shelf class D modules are limiting their designs to the shortcomings of those modules.
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