I think it depends on the recording as you've discovered. I find quite a few old jazz recordings are almost entirely split left and right so the only center "fill" you have is less directional sound like drums.
Are there speakers that disappear regardless of the recording?
I have a pair of B&W 805d3’s. Strictly analog system. Source is the Clearaudio Ovation, Hana SL cart. Herron VTPH-2A phono stage. Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum II integrated amp. The speakers sound great most of the time. I have many records that cause the speakers to essentially disappear with a holographic sound stage, beautiful imaging and great dynamics. Some other records, not so much. Curious if there’s a way to achieve disappearing speakers no matter what recording you throw at them? Thanks!
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to me it depends on the positioning of the speakers more than any other aspect. with the right positioning they should disappear with most if not all recordings. unfortunately it usually requires lots of depth in your room, the speakers need to have open air all around and ~ 4 to 5 feet from the wall behind them. then adjust toe angle until you have a combination of a focused center image and disappearing speakers. |
I have to agree with @avanti1960 until your speakers are optimized. My speakers disappear after some repositioning. But @bhvf is absolute;y correct… those old recording with one guy an the left and one one the right, are just not going to disappear. Meaning some of the disappear has to be about the recording. |
My ancient Mirage M3 bipoles, as well as my LSA small bookshelf speakers (wide dispersion) disappear no matter the recording.. I gather this works for omnis also. Caveat is that while you get a wide soundstage, if precise imaging is important, I’d listen before buying as you may not get what you want. |
This is probably not what the OP is referring to, but anyone who has ever heard the Beveridge electrostatic speakers would have to answer YES. They generated a true cylindrical wavefront - you could walk anywhere in the room including around and between the speakers without ever being able to tell where the sound was coming from! |
You appear to be referring to PRESENTATION of the music in your listening environment. On this very aspect, some transducers are better than others, yet even the best of the best need a great deal of perseverance with set up for your needs. All upstream and downstream technology and features need to be well selected and tuned to achieve a palpable soundstage in all dimensions. When this is achieved, it can be a revelation and one's enjoyment of the music should take a huge leap forward. |
The recordings do matter a lot and setup too. Most speakers CAN disappear, and do it much of the time. Magneplanars disappear like 95% of the time except with hard-panned, L-R, jazz. They can be finicky, but even when they're not perfectly optimized they're nowhere to be found. Switching back, almost all box speakers have some box sound to them which makes them easier to"find". Don't get me wrong, I love box speakers, the visceral aspects of boxes with traditional drivers keep me coming back. But Magnepans disappear with ease. |
"Are there speakers that disappear regardless of the recording?" No, I don't think so. The sense of space and the stereo stage is a function of the original recording. Others have mentioned the old RCA and Mercury recordings as examples of recordings that capture that space. Those were made during an age where recording engineers let the conductor and the musicians take care of the balance. The engineers spent a lot more time finding the optimal location for 2 or 3 microphones. Some more recent recordings by Keith Johnson, the folks at Telarc, Chandos and Chesky achieve similar results with more modern equipment, but adhering to the minimalist approach to miking the orchestra. As soon as you start adding more mics, things have the potential to go downhill fast. Decca in England had some interesting techniques that involved additional mics and were successful in capturing the space, but it was done very carefully. |
No, it does not exist. As someone else said, if not in recording its not going to happen. There are so many recordings and all are different. Some sound terrible, some acceptable, and some sound fantastic. There are some older analog lp's that will blow your mind with the unreal tubey magical sound with super wide soundstage. They do not record music in this way anymore....what a shame. |
Do you listen with your eyes closed? Visual cues do affect the listening experience. My Quads disappear all the time, but having my eyes open can interfere with that. This was advice I got as a young guitar student going to hear Segovia. My teacher told me to spend a good part of the concert with my eyes closed; to focus on the music and not be distracted from the music by the eyes. If sound comes from the right in my system, for instance, and I see the speaker it can make “disappearing act” harder. Agreed with other responders about some jazz and pop mixes from the 60s. Big bands with an entire sax section panned hard left, trumpets hard right. Not much you can do with that. They didn’t start mixing/panning sound stages, it seems, until the 70s. |
Recently switched from Martin Logan electrostatics 15a’s to vintage Von Schweikert’s VR10’s. The difference in imaging is truly remarkable. No more having to sit in that 2 foot sweet spot! You can be almost anywhere in the room, and still have a great sound stage, it’s unbelievable. Apparently due to the crossover, and rear facing drivers? Placement also doesn’t seem nearly as critical as the ML’s. I also incidentally have never heard a speaker wherein I can understand the lyrics so well as the VR’s. OTH, they are quite large, and not so aesthetic as the later models, as one of his earlier efforts. But that’s in the eye of the beholder. And, I didn’t buy them to stare at. 😁 I also just ordered a second Luxman M900u amplifier, as they seem to be really power hungry. But that’s another thread? |
It varies. As for those whose speakers throw a wide, deep soundstage, I’ve heard such speakers. They are wonderful but they also lack some of the precision in other speakers. From my experience, which is limited compared to many, a narrower sweet spot is compensated by more precise imaging in the soundstage. Some don’t prefer that. I kinda like it. Oh, and that comment about needing a good (or well treated) room to do this? Absolutely. 1000% key. |
What a great question! In my experience some speakers 'disappeared' a little more than others. My Tannoy Berkeley's don't disappear at all. OK, they're better with some recordings than others, but I'm guessing a large wooden box made in the 1970s is never going to vanish completely. I'm guessing it's something to do with both construction and presentation. Harbeth, for one, claim that the panel resonances in their speakers lie beneath the threshold of hearing. And they have data to back themselves up. However, unless a speaker is omnidirectional, I'm again guessing that you will always know the sound is coming from a pair of transducers.
Closing my eyes is a must for me if I want to even get close. |
Totally agree with @zgas-music But there is a lot to be said for getting the speaker-room interaction as correct as possible. |
NO. It’s all about the source. Assuming your speakers are doing a terrific job of presenting imaging from superlatively recorded/produced recordings, thus ’disappearing’ within the sound stage, like your B&W’s do now: the speakers ’disappear’ because they become instruments within a wide soundstage, the phantom center and phantom off center being present in the imaging are a large part of why the speaker’s disappear. as you progressively reduce the effective skill of recording/producing, the speaker’s progressively reappear. .................................................. balance: some very involving recordings, the balance is a speck off, a very small tweak to proper balance makes a large difference, everything, not just center get’s refined. best is remote balance from listening position. note: it might be something in your system causing an inadvertent, perhaps inconsistent minor balance imperfection. My vintage McIntosh jacks were corroded, and very slightly undersized. move one cable, it disturbs another, .... Audio Classics changed all the jack panels to new gold plated, AND, I changed to locking RCA’s on my inter-connects. I think one of the benefits for short runs of XLR is they also are locking. I still find tracks that benefit from a small tweak, most often on compilations where many different engineers/producers are involved. ......................................
mono was mentioned. I used to use Mono mode on my McIntosh Preamp, but still used my Stereo Cartridge. I took advice here, glad I did. recording teams, equipment and techniques were surprisingly good before stereo came along. Vinyl: the best is a mono cartridge, mono lp, mono mode, played thru only 1 speaker. then listen from anywhere. do NOT let your habit of seeking imaging get involved. Some are only minor improvements, some quite a lot. Mono is horizontal vibration info only, mono cartridge has no output of any vertical movement. Stereo cartridge will find/pick up/make noise from any inadvertent vertical movement, warp, dust, ,,, there is more than you would think. It smears the content with noise. One speaker, some noise, two speakers, double the noise. I have a compilation LP, mono, early Chicago jazz. Played stereo cartridge, even via mono mode, it is far from involving, just a history lesson, probably never play again. played with my true mono cartridge, even both speakers, it becomes an involving experience you will want to replay. not imaging, but the distinction of individual instruments is there. played mono/mono/1 speaker, even more involving/instrument distinction. |
Count yourself lucky. You must have a nice sounding system. You might consider adding a pair of REL SHO subwoofers. Their high-level connection allows them to play like woofers. The trick is to dial them in until you cannot detect them. I have a source where you can buy them brand new for about half the price. If interested, I could let you know my source only if you do not divulge the source. I have noticed some recordings produce more db at the same volume settings. I am not sure why. I often have to adjust the volume on my amplifier downward. Perhaps this also reduces distortion? Certain recordings just sound better. I have a number of recordings I play to show off my sound system. |
NO. A speaker- properly designed - will reveal the recording, regardless of quality of said recording. Many recordings, especially pop recordings or old tech recordings, are awful. Its just like movies, a good TV does NOT improve the way all movies look. Amazing recordings sound amazing on great speakers and can sound just okay on just okay speakers. Brad |
My basic good but not high end speakers Mission Cyrus 781 never disapered when i installed them years ago in my non treated and non controlled room.. For sure disapearance of speakers is an experience related and coming from the way and good trade-off choices made by the recording engineer... A mono recording will not sound stereo even in an acoustically controlled environment... 🤣For sure.... But there will be a big differences between a mono recording in a controlled room and in a non controlled one....The mono recording will MIMIC or SUGGEST a more 3-d sound like a sphere in the center and no more a dead surface between the 2 speakers... And what means "speakers which disapear" for me? They always disapear at some level and for some degree with all my stereo recordings, why and how? The speakers disapear when the sound we listen to dont come from the speakers and the sound dont stay between the speakers like a dead body but fill the room, imaging is no more only in the direction back/front or left/right inside and outside the speakers locations, but also in some recording around the listener and in some recording behind my listening position, and sometimes for example voices directly beside my 2 ears like in an headphone and orchestra behind the speakers... The same recording listened in another non controlled room will not give this experience... Then it is ACOUSTIC treatment but especially acoustic mechanical control in a dedicated room that make this experience possible with basic box speakers... All is in the recording? Yes, but the TRANSLATION of the recording choices acoutical cues are only completely audible in a CONTROLLED room...The acoustic choices of the recording engineer cannot be translated completely in a non treated and non controlled room... Simple... Knowing that by experience, it is the reason why i never boasted about my speakers or dac and amplifier to be the main cause and main reason of my deep imaging soundstage and listener envelopment experience with an intimate sound which feel like i had headphones with none of the inconvenience of my 7 headphones... It is not my brand name specific gear, so good it is, the main cause and reason of my S.Q. wonderful experience all time, it is not even the difference in recordings which is big from one recording to another one, no, it is ACOUSTIC CONTROL of the room mechanically tuned with Helmhotlz method... The main reason of the disapearance of speakers is to be understood by acoustic and psycho-acoustic science not by brand name gear marketing tacttic nor because someone boast about his specific speakers or gear in a review saying that it is the cause... ANY BASIC relatively good gear can give a wonderful S.Q. experience modulo acoustic control in a dedicated room... For sure my gear is LIMITED and cannot be transformed miraculously in high end gear by acoustic and cannot beat high end gear but i dont lag so much afar and behind high end experience as publicity and audio magazine want to make us believe ... 😁😊 On the opposite i dont want to upgrade at all because my ratio S.Q. /price is over the roof...Upgrading really will cost me 15,000 bucks versus my 500 buck system now... For only a clearer sound and a better dynamic and a better timbre, but not so much better because i can enjoy music without any frustration at all NOW compared to anything i ever listen to in all my life... Audio experience is acoustic experience ....First and last..... By the way all my albums sound interesting now even the worst recording.... Why? Because now i can HEAR all the trade-off choices of the recording engineer in my room and it makes all albums interesting.... Calling them "bad" make no more sense, they are not so well recorded for sure but they are interesting acoustically and musically for their own sake now... And i dont listen to my 7 headphones now because they cannot beat my 500 bucks audio system in my controlled room , not even for the intimacy aspect...My room give an intimacy experience like my headphones were giving me in the past...But the sound is not IN MY HEAD now but around me and near me... And anyway no headphone has a dynamic and a bass so natural to beat my modest speakers now.... Acoustic is the key not some chosen well recorded album...I dont pick album for their sound recording quality now... It speaks volume about acoustic control... When someone enjoy only some recording album because it is a way better album than the others he own, it is a sign and a clue about the acoustic limitations of his room and this manifest in the fact that he cannot enjoy many albums which has acoustic cues from their recording characteristiuc more difficult to manifest in a non treated and non controlled room...Then he pick the best album to enjoy a good sound...All my albums present something interesting, i never chose an album now for the sound ONLY FOR THE MUSIC... In a word i want to be clear: Acoustic control dont make "bad" recording good one but make them interesting ANYWAY...Acoustic control dont transform my basic gear in high end one at all, but put them no so far behind... THAT IS THE POINT... Dont upgrade ever BEFORE embedding rightfully what you already own....
By the way the speakers disapear ONLY when your room disapear...Read it twice and think about it twice...Or the speakers disapear when the room and the speakers are INTEGRATED synergetically by Helmholtz method...
«If there is no speakers and no room where is the music? »-Acoustical Koan
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@larry5729 i have a pair of Rel s510 subs |
I forgot to say that i dont listen pop music nor rock because i hate most of the time the SOUND from studio manipulations but often also i dont like the commercial music..Not so more musicians rival the Beatles or Bob Dylan in pop culture... 😁😊 I listen mainly to Classical, and jazz and music from Asian countries...India and persia especially... I disconnected for ever my only sub after controlling my room.... My 7 inches driver do the job now with enough bass to be listen by my body but the wall dont vibrate no.......I listen tuba or piano very well not explosions anyway.... |
The only ones I suggest are Magneplaners, but you need to have them set-up properly and you need quality hardware. They only reproduce what you give them, so speak to a good dealer and have them set up IN YOUR ROOM and see what you think. Don't listen to any of us; make up your own mind ONCE YOU LISTEN. Cheers! |
Assuming the speakers themselves aren’t resonating excessively it is always the room and placement. Also, keep in mind that B&W’s may sound a lot better on the mid axis than the tweeter axis. Experiment with sitting there. Also, toe them out a little. Having said this, there are some recordings with instruments hard left or hard right, and that may break the illusion, especially if your soundstage is usually behind your speakers. |
The presentation of solid imaging within a wide and deep soundstage has to be available in the recording. Then it is about the room, room treatments, and best placement of the speakers within. Then it is about the speakers inherent ability to present the available soundscape. Then it is about the ability of equipment to present this to the speakers. And now we are back to the recording. Having too much fun over coffee:-).
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Except for very rare bad recording, they are always some acoustical cues in most recording related to the POTENTIAL imaging soundstage timbre and all others acoustic cues ready and waiting to be translated for and in your room and this acoustic information is more or less well conveyed by your gear to the speakers/room for sure...The inequality of different gear for this conveying task is a common place fact... The recording circle you alluded to, has for center : the ACOUSTIC room control... NO one listen to the speakers alone in a small room...We listen to the speakers/room... Why ? Divide the speed of sound by the dimension of your room to know why and calculate the time your brain use to work this information between the distance of your 2 ears trelatively to the 2 speakers and the walls of reflected sound... The initial recording of the lived musical event is a set of acoustic choices taken by the recording engineer , and they always are IMPERFECT, always a trade-off each one of them... This recording, yes must be CONVEYED by the turntable/dac and amplifier to the speaker with more or less distortions and success, but at the end must be TRANSLATED from the initial residual or chosen acoustical choices of the recording , TRANSLATED in the acoustical environment of your uncontrolled or controlled room... My point is a controlled room give the best possible translation from the first recorded acoustic event to your room acoustic which is, if controlled, ADAPTED synergetically for your specific speakers and specific ears structure and history... We always listen to the speakers/room relation NEVER to the speaker alone in a small room ... This is acoustic and psycho-acoustic scientific fact... Then repeating a common place fact the way you did it : "this must be in the recording first " erase the most important audio factor for an optimal perceived experience which is the acoustic control of the relation between the speakers and the room... A common place fact is not enough to understand the key fact here... Acoustic and psycho-acoustic... 😁😊
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The original poster's question is about speakers disappearing i.e. if you close your eyes do the sounds appear to be all coming from the speakers, or do they "disappear". This is not the same as imaging i.e. can you tell where the violin is and what it's relation is to other instruments and not the same as wide soundstage i.e. how large an area in your room do the instruments appear to be arrayed in. 3 different questions. |
@berner99 |
What I am talking about is that not only do the speakers disappear sitting in the sweet spot (for any music), but if I move a few feet in any direction , I still don’t hear the sound as originating from 2 boxes, just a wall (area?) of sound. Again just talking about disapearing (not localizing instruments).. And if may be that those who have only heard typical box speakers have not experienced this (perhaps they wouldn’t like it). There is a reason omnis are popular (note though that Jay didn’t like the MBLs at recent show), The mirage bipoles (in phase front and rear drivers) were popular and I was surprised to find this in the LSA. box speakers(I assume because they are wide dispersion). Not sure if Maggies, and open baffles have this quality or not. There is a reason speakers other than low dispersion boxes are and will remain popular--changing sound radiating pattern (for better or worse-=your taste) is one thing unlike frequency response that only speakers (well and room treatments) can change. And room treatments may ruin this--dunno.
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