A Record Collection/Moral Conundrum - What Would You Do?
Folks,
I’ve been rolling around an issue and I’m simply curious what others would do in my place.
Here’s the situation:
I had an long time great friend and audiophile buddy who I’ll call "John." Around 2009 or so John wanted to open a restaurant. I lent him some money. You already know how this story goes and why we aren’t friends anymore.
But to add some detail, he asked for a heap of money because he was in a fix - said he was expecting a bunch of money (from the government as I remember - showed me some papers about it) but it was going to show up a bit too late, so could I lend him the money just for about a month then he’d pay me back. I explained I was just starting a renovation of a room in my house turning it in to my long-dreamed of home theater, which I’d saved for, and that it would come out of my own savings for that project. I was very hesitant, he begged, promised it was only for a few weeks. I said I could lend him 1/2 of what he was asking (otherwise I couldn’t even pay for the contractors coming).
One of those situations where long time, very good friend who I knew was a good person, who was only ever honest with me, needed help. So I stepped in. That’s always how it goes, right? Yes, I learned the hard lesson about lending money.
Needless to say the money didn’t show up the next month. Or the next. Or the next. Whenever I asked it was another story on how the restaurant was sucking every spare dollar, he’d pay me as soon as he could. Of course the restaurant quickly went under. I was like "I need that money, I have contractors to pay" and he just said he didn’t have any to give. Next he told me he was selling his house, downsizing, and he’d use the funds to pay off his debts including to me. Ok. What else was I going to do?
He asked if he could store his much beloved record collection at my place while he sold his house. Ok. Several boxes full of nice records took up (some valuable) real estate in my basement.
Basically I never heard from him again. Heard he sold his house, but that was it. Other friends have been in occasional contact. I’d been hoping that with his records here maybe he’d show up one day. Of course not.
So...now...11 years later!...I need some money. And I’m cleaning out the basement, wanting those records out of there.
I could sell the records and at least make some money.
The question for the audience is: Do you do it?
The case for selling them seems relatively obvious. He stiffed me for many thousands of dollars that he never paid back. Had me store the records forever while he went AWOL. Clearly has zero intention of ever picking them up.Every arrow points towards "They Are Mine Now."
Except...I have a conscience. He never formally gave them to me.
So, would you try to track "John" down to ask if he wants his records back (and explain otherwise I’m going to sell them)?
Or would you just go ahead, assume ownership (and payback) and sell them?
If you are into vinyl then you have to dig into your ex friend collection trying to find some rare gems. I would’t let some decent stuff go for nothing, some of your audio friends could help. If there are some jazz or soul records on vintage vinyl the prices can be crazy and dealers at the shop will not tell you about it for sure, they will buy a bulk for very low prices, it’s just stupid to trust the dealers and let it go for nothing. There might be some record collectors you know personally who can help you, sell junk, keep the gold. If your musical taste is different from the ex owner it can be tricky.
What kind of music do you have and how many records?
Oh if I'm selling them I'll definitely go through them first. But also as fate would have it, we recently had a small flood in the basement area where they were stored. The front part of the box containing some of the records was soaked. I haven't dared look at the possible damage to the records yet. (I listen to all kinds of music on LPs - jazz, soundtracks, electronica, funk, disco, prog rock, rock, fusion, folk, pop, classical, Library Music - you name it. But I'm very particular about what I want to own. I don't generally keep around an album that only as one or a couple songs I would listen to. I can pull out just about any of my albums and want to listen through the whole thing).
I, and I am sure the more than 50 other persons who have advised you that you have zero "moral" obligation to the owner of the LPs, certainly hope you immediately removed the LPs from the wet storage box or boxes, and then removed LPs from the sleeves, so they could dry out quickly and properly. Album covers can dry separately, and you should spend a few bucks on new inner sleeves, one for each wetted LP. If not, you are shooting yourself in the foot, so far as your capacity to derive some financial compensation for having been stiffed.
Since you're not concerned about extracting financial remuneration, how bout donating them to some charity? Conscious relieved as your not profiting, using proceeds for good cause seems like win win to me.
My perception, based on both conscious and legal counts, is his donation comes from abandoned property.
As others have said, rid yourself of them. Having said that you are looking at parting out a record collection. Possible more of a PITA than actually parting out a car, and possibly more work… just less grease. Anyway, how many records are we talking here! 20? 500? That will make a big difference. The vinyl that got wet is probably fine, unless the sleeves got wet and dried (stuck) to the vinyl. The sleeves will be ruined for the most part in terms of value. With so many different versions, pressings, sources etc of albums these days it would be an arduous task to go through them to find if there are any gems. Even if there were, no chance you are going to recoup much. Might be better to just dump the lot and be done with it, not going to get much, but they are out of the basement and out of your hair. Good luck. Humans suck sometimes.
You are probably dealing with a sociopath. I would bet you are not the only person to whom he owes money. Your handwringing is unnecessary. He abandoned his LP collection. If he comes looking for it at some later date, you can say you sold it to recoup costs of your storage. He has no legs to stand on, if he doesn’t like your logic.
It’s weird that most people in this thread advised the OP to get rid of the record collection without even knowing what’s in this record collection ! Sell for nothing or even donate - the worst advice, most likely people are into digital, otherwise they could imagine their own record collection instead. Terrible!
“You die, We buy” - this is what the record dealers are waiting for, especially when your beloved wife sells your expensive records for nothing in bulk, because you never tell her how much you paid for rare vinyl :)
I didn't notice anyone recommending disposal of the LPs as trash or gifting them, but perhaps I have not read the whole thread. In the US, it could work out OK to donate them to a charitable organization and take a tax deduction. I have no idea of the tax laws in Russia. Sure, the OP could go through the collection and keep for himself anything he likes. So far, after X years of storage on his property, it does not appear he has done that. Anything he does now is justified and better from his point of view than what went before. By the way, although I have not discussed the issue with my wife, I plan to suggest to her that she should sell my LPs to a bulk buyer, likely to be a dealer. Or donate them to a charity. She won't need the money, and I cannot imagine her or our sons selling them piecemeal.
@lewm Why not gift your vinyl collection to a younger audiophile, (or partition out to a few 'philes) if you know & like any? Seems like a well curated collection would have a long road to being properly enjoyed again, through a charitable donation. Maybe a good option for OP, too.
cheery pick good stuff, then just bring a handful at a time to your local shop when you go looking for something new “or used”, and trade them in. Small lots, for a new record or two.
Or, pay them forward to someone who would appreciate them who is just getting started.
Sell them as a lot on Kijiji.
Or, get a discogs account and list them one by one. How many are you talking about?
no good deed goes unpunished...having said that, are you interested in purchasing a bridge...great location in Brooklyn? Seriously, by now you have already kicked yourself enough. Let it go...forget contacting this deadbeat, and either enjoy the music or sell what you don't want. Don't give him another thought...life is too short.
Quite a range of opinions! Thanks folks! At this point my plan is still to contact him and see if he wants the records or if I'll sell them (and keep what I want).
Good for you for having a conscience and honoring it. I think that attempting to contact him and giving him the opportunity to set things right is honorable. No one can really tell you what to do, you're the one that will live with your decision. I can tell you what I would do, but I'm not you.
I think you've decided on a good way to proceed prof, and you never know how this might turn out on a personal level. Life is full of amazing and often wonderful surprises.
I’d track him down, tell him you’re selling his records, and then punch him in the nose. You might mention there’s more where that came from if he doesn’t pay you back immediately. You’re not a doormat like someone above mentioned. It always pays to be civil and nice, but there's a limit.
The moral issue seems clear, so I'll deal with the practicalities.
What are the consequences if you dispose of the records? He asks for them back or damages, i.e. the value of his loss. You counterclaim for your loans.
If you want to protect your position, write to him at the most recent address you have - get proof of posting.
Document the loans, terms etc and the records. Give him a reasonable time to reply, to repay and deal with the records, or you will dispose of them and put the proceeds against his debt.
You may want to get 2 prices from record shops if they have a material value.
I didn’t notice anyone recommending disposal of the LPs as trash or gifting them, but perhaps I have not read the whole thread. In the US, it could work out OK to donate them to a charitable organization and take a tax deduction. I have no idea of the tax laws in Russia. Sure, the OP could go through the collection and keep for himself anything he likes. So far, after X years of storage on his property, it does not appear he has done that. Anything he does now is justified and better from his point of view than what went before. By the way, although I have not discussed the issue with my wife, I plan to suggest to her that she should sell my LPs to a bulk buyer, likely to be a dealer. Or donate them to a charity. She won’t need the money, and I cannot imagine her or our sons selling them piecemeal.
I recently checked again the current auction finals on popsike.com for some of the records from my collection, for many Soul 45s from the 60s and 70s, purchased by me probably 15 years ago, the current prices are simply insane! I often see a typical $300-500 price tag per record when they are sold, here is one of them - this is what I call rare records.
My point is that sometime there might be 1-5 records that cost more than entire collection! Do you think the dealers will tell you that ? :)
P.S. I doubt that record collectors will tell a girlfriend (or wife) how much they paid for stuff they really want. And believe me they pay a lot for rare records. Prices go up every year, but at the end of the day there will be a dealer from the local shop (You die, We buy) with a typical offer of $5 per record for the entire collection and the wife will be like "yeah, fair price" :)
I own about 2500 LPs. Some guys here own more, some fewer. I own zero collectible 45s or 78s; mine are all 33 rpm long playing records. Some are more valuable than others, true. My only point was that the highest possible value of an LP collection such as mine, the amount one might recoup if one were to sell each LP at its max market value, compared to its bargain basement value, the amount one might realize if one sold the entire collection to a dealer at say $5 per LP, is not going to make much difference to an heir. The difference between the two valuations is not enough to change anyone's life style. We don't even know the number of LPs left by the deadbeat on the property of the OP, let alone their potential collector value as individual LPs. If they have been in a garage or an occasionally wet basement for 11 years, all bets are off.
@prof I applaud you for contacting your ex-friend and asking him if he wants the records back. If he replies that he does, and he wants you to deliver them, and he has no intention of paying you for your loan... leads back to my advice to seek legal counsel. BTW, the Canadian web page that was referenced earlier in the thread has some very specific protocols regarding the abandonment and disposition of personal property. These protocols are there for a legal reason.
Not really interested (I thought): you never "lend" money to anyone. You give it. On the other hand, reading through this amazing thread helps me understand the psychological basis for many of the others here.
I'll buy the collection from you, but will need a few weeks to assimilate the funds. In the meantime, I'll stop by and pick up the records, relieving you of your moral dilemma.
46 years ago, I bought the lease to my loft of 41 years from a friend. He was moving to Europe. He had a fine art reproduction of the Ghent Altarpiece that he had framed in gold leaf himself. He didn’t want to take it with him and said if I liked it, I should keep it. So I did.
He comes back from Europe last year and says he wants it back.
🙄 Some people.
I still have it hanging over our bed, where it’s been for 41 years and where it is remaining. Besides, the wife loves it too.
As for your records: don’t sell them, give them to me! 🤗😆😂
Seriously, in real estate there are laws where if you are using someone’s property and they say nothing after so many years, that property becomes yours. Full stop.
Sadly, the statute of limitations would now bar your claim against ex-friend, while his right of action against you for conversion would only accrue when you sell the records. However, you can argue -- depending on your state's law of abandoned property -- that the records became yours when he failed to collect them within a reasonable time. (I'll spare you the legal analysis from the intentional tort/quantum meruit viewpoints).
But that's just the legal perspective. Ethically, you couldn't be blamed for selling the records, and I can think of no one, in or out of the legal profession, so churlish as to say you'd done wrong.
I would track him down and send an email expressing your intention of selling the collection if you don't collect the payback on your loan within 30 days. Make a paper trail that spells out the situation. If he could burn you once, he is probably capable of anything, so make the statement in writing. Don't hesitate to sell if you don't get your money. Don't accept another excuse. Good luck!
If it has not been mentioned, setup a discogs.com account, you can inventory the LP's and get sense of there worth. Some LP's can hold value, I know my collection has a fairly high value, if using the median price for sales history. You can list them at the median and they should sell over time. I would do this vs wholesale to a shop. Are these classical records? They are the worst for holding or increasing value, same with a lot of pop music stuff. Electronic can have some crazy good value, David Bowie box sets etc can be good too. Really depends on what you have and the condition. Discogs. The LP market is pretty hot still.
Didn't your basement have a water issue at some point? I seem to remember it did. And didn't those records get moldy and you had to get rid of them due to health concerns? I remember that, too.
"Sorry buddy, I don't have you records anymore. Had to get rid of them. Didn't want to get sick, you know?"
what if you just find it and RETURN THE PLATES FOR FREE? - if the person who has not deceived you, then maybe the universe will appreciate it and somehow reward it later ...
But if you are a non-believer, just contact the local mafia and these guys, for 50% of the amount, will find and take your debt ... music - listen to music yourself or give it to children for music lovers for free.
(with this post you publicly admitted the fact of transferring property to you on bail ... in court it will be against you)
11 years ? That is past the statute of limitations in the US. Did you document the loan ? Did "John" sign a promissory note, or in any way provide a document to show that he borrowed money from you ? Did you create a storage agreement when he asked to store LPs in your basement ? I suspect the answer is no. Thus it is one word against another. I suspect he knew what he left behind, but also knew that he did not pay you from the proceeds of his home sale. If he was a collector of any degree, he KNEW exactly where those records were stored, and made a decision not to retrieve them so he would not be confronted by you asking for your money. Open the boxes and enjoy the LPs, then sell what you don't like/want. If you live in a good size metro area, you likely have local buyers that will pay you a fair price for individual LPs.
I am a lawyer, Though in California. The law should be similar. You are in the wonderful world of “bailments”. When a party deposits property with another, an ailment is created. Look on any private parking ticket and it’ll say no bailment is created this is a license to park. That’s because there are special conditions in a bailment. You have the bailee and the bailor. Look up the obligations of both on Google. Chances are there is a time limit, or statute of limitations. After 11 years it may be way past, and may release you from any obligations to him. Check to make sure there is no notice requirement for you to tell him he needs to pick em up to start the statute of limitation running. Listening to Beethoven’s 3rd an 4 th while writing on my new vandersteen Quatro wood CT’s. Sound like I’m actually at the concert. Amazing accurate sound. Highly recommend. Good luck
@kavakat1 +1 Great post, although I doubt the OP will have created an ailment ( although you never know with some of the ’advice’ that he has received here!) LOL...A bailment, yes---an ailment??:0)
We haven't touched on the other side of the moral question. By allowing your friend to not pay back his loan and letting you hold onto his records for many years and then giving them back to him, you are encouraging this type of behavior. Is that something you want to do?
Bad behavior that hurts innocent people is frequently encouraged in our society today. And guess what? We get more and more bad behavior. If there are no consequences for doing wrong, expect to see a lot more people doing wrong.
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