A deeper more holographic soundstage.

Millercarbon is right about the EXACT angle necessary to position speakers.... That is mandatory...

Happy New Year....

Dchang05,  isn't this how you describe your new system?

I purchased BHK preamp, M1200, and P15 together three weeks ago. The first week they sounded flat and dull, but now they are phenomenal.

So are they phenomenal or did you lose soundstage width and depth?

Your old tube amps had pretty high output impedance which could cause frequency anomalies and depending on your speakers you could have shelving of the highs with the 1200s. Odds are if you equalized frequency response your perception of soundstage would be more consistent.  Perhaps a better statement is that your amp, pre, DAC shouldn't impact sound stage (as intended) if they are neutral.

The deep wide former sound stage may have been artificial.

Twoleftears:  I agree with you. I have Ilumnia Magister speakers: Omniradial.1 meter from the wall  in 8-10°. Listeningposition in a “triangel”:only with that kind of speakers , you have a perfect 3-D sound. The chamber should also be “”echo-free” by using absorbent plates, if necessary. ( my system: CEC (cd-player), Metronome Technologie C6 (dac), Daniël Hertz  M6L ( preamp) and Wavac Md 805m ( monoblocks))

I read a lot of things written here as if they are gospel. I will give you my own experience.

 I have a holographic sense of space that reaches beyond my speakers and with excellent and focused imaging. I have substantial equipment between my speakers, and have no room treatment beyond an area rug and acoustic tiles in the ceiling. The room is built on a concrete pad, and thus the floating wood floor is firm. The speakers are ATC SCM35’s placed two feet from the wall and about 10 feet apart in a 20 by 20 foot room. I do not separate my cables, but I have a really excellent equipment rack of wood with steel points in steel cups separating each rack level. I do have a tube preamp, but I get the same sense of imaging depth with both a C-J tube amp and my tweaked-up, 45 year old Ampzilla, and whether I am streaming or playing vinyl.

So, while room treatment may help and equipment rack placement may help, you can get to this level of imaging without it. 

If you wear glasses while listening, take them off. Primarily tightens up center image focus (in my experience) which would secondarily maximize your perceived image depth (that already exists). YMMV. Other than that, looks like you have soup to nuts options presented here. Good luck. If any of you try this and you hear any improvement, imagine how bad the effect must have been in late 70's through the 80's when the style was lenses the size of dish antennae!

Erik_squires and millercarbon both mentioned elements that improved my soundstage depth the most. Treat the area in the dimension you are trying to improve. Front and back wall treatments will improve the depth of your sound stage. The engineer at GIK made this clear. Also, using a laser to get your speakers as symmetrical as possible side to side and vertically also is an important factor to consider.

My best change was from getting a curious cable 
it became 3 d but slightly narrow and shorter image 

I read a lot of things written here as if they are gospel. I will give you my own experience.

Gospel? No. Physical reality yes.

If your speakers are two feet from the wall it's easy to calculate where you will have a null in the frequency response.

Sans room treatment it's a given echos front and back, sides may not be too bad given size and placement.


Speakers at 2 feet, 10 feet apart listening at about 12?  ... Some bass nodes at play.

Room correction?

You may very well enjoy your system but is the soundstage real or echo? Is it ideal? No.

A lot of random noise here. If you are happy with your gear and want to achieve a 3D Holographic Soundstage with scale and accurate instrument voicing, call Joe Abrams at Equus Audio. I’ve used MIT products since the late 90’s with excellent results. The new REV line Joe offers are extremely good and worth every dollar...they will allow your system to produce the most accurate rendering of an acoustic space possible.

besides room treatment the next important step is to get your digital equipment on vibration control gear. One example, my transport sits on TR bases from marigo, then his special shelf, marigo 4 40 millimeter vibration spacers, a granit mdf shelf, 4 six in. springs under that, and then another granit mdf shelf and then the final footers some kind of ball bering mini devices under that. Not only are taking out vibrations from your equipment but you are also dealing with earth vibration.I did this over ten years ago. More analog, three dimensional, cleaner sound than I ever thought possible. Vibration vibration vibration. This is the key to better sound.

Marigo audio is one of the kings of vibration control. Give him a call, he will help you greatly.

Look into BACCH4Mac or HAF digital signal processing.
I have no experience with HAF, but am using the BACCH4Mac Intro edition and probably will upgrade to the Audiophile edition (although it is rather expensive.) BACCH is a product of an acoustic research lab at Princeton University.

BACCH minimizes/eliminates crosstalk, manipulates the signal in the time domain, and can create rather dramatic effects on soundstage/imaging.  I'm told that effects from the more sophisticated ($) versions, "Audiophile" and up, can be breathtaking.  My own experience is that more magic occurs on some recordings than others. 
You won't hear much difference on, say, a Diana Krall recording (where all the attention is on one center image). But on one binaural recording, the apparent position of a trombone moved from at/near my left speaker to about 2 meters to the left of the same speaker.  Not only the speakers seem to disappear, but the walls of the house can seem to disappear.  It can increase the apparent depth and reverb. It does all this allegedly with no impact on the tonality (it is not the same in effect as room correction software or an old school graphic equalizer).

I have highly directive, hybrid electrostatic speakers.  These seem to work better with BACCH than some other speakers, so YMMV.  There is a 2 week trial of the Intro edition (and it's just software, so if you are not happy with it you don't have to ship anything back).

So, while room treatment may help and equipment rack placement may help, you can get to this level of imaging without it.

Interesting... I believe you because all room are different and dont need the same level of treatment, and some Audio system are already synergetically and by itself already very high S.Q. then i belive you...

BUT it is not true for most of people at all....In most case acoustical treatment and controls are necessary....Beside that except for lucky buyers, most very good system cost high price...

My speakers paid 50 bucks are very good but not on the level of your ATC for example...

But guess what, my S.Q. is probably near you, i listen to a soundstage holographic with perfect imaging, natural timbre with audible decay,bass i feel in my stomach, and the sound is filling my entire room at low volume ...Then all situation are different...Thanks to my homemade embeddings device... Without that compared to your ATC probably my speakers are way under in S.Q. term...

We cannot deduce that all costly system will be good without the need of any embeddings controls at all and will not need specific acoustical controls nor electrical or mechanical controls either...The general rule for most small room and audio system is they probably badly need all treatment and all possible controls...

By the way  i apologize to say that downright but you probably dont know what your own system is able to do more with a complete implementation of mechanical,electrical and acoustical controls...Perhaps your system even if you are satisfied is not working, unbeknownst to you, at his better level possible...

Most people unsatisfied or not, are not conscious at all of what are the really true high potential level of their audio system, what it is able to give when working in optimal controlled conditions... This is the ONLY experience and certainty i have acquire at the end of my journey...I called that embeddings controls in the 3 dimension of audio....

Happy New Year...

I've heard two pieces of equipment that increase the depth of the soundstage - one I own and the other I heard at AXPONA.

A company called BSG Technologies made a processor called the QOL (pronounced coal). This unit is a refinement on phasing processors such as the Carver's Sonic Hologram Generator, which I also own. The QOL is more subtle than other processors of its type but its main benefit is that it deepens the soundstage. I use it over 90% of the time when I listen to music. It was well reviewed by TAS and Stereophile so you can find more information if you Google "BSG QOL review." Originally they cost $4k but you can occasionally find one on the used market for under a grand. I like mine so much I bought a spare from the guy who ran the company. 

The other one is the Synergistics Research Atmosphere Infinity. I heard this at the 2018 AXPONA where the company owner put on a really good demonstration. I didn't hear much difference when he added/removed the little HFT thingies but the soundstage absolutely collapsed when he shut off the Atmosphere Infinity unit. He had the system playing with all his tweaks before the demonstration and I remember thinking that this was the best sound at the show when I walked into the room. It really sounded like musicians were playing in the room. This skinny tower goes for about $3500 and if it does at home what I heard at AXPONA it's well worth it. I'm looking forward to auditioning one at a dealer when I get a chance..

Just for the record, I have a fairly optimum setup with a large (16 x 35) room. I'm running Thiel CS6 speakers which are several feet away from the front wall and carefully set up. My system sounds really good without any processing but the QOL adds the cream of increased depth. On a good recording I've had people sit there and gape in disbelief. It's very three dimensional.

More than anything it's the room.
I currently have an all tube setup (Don Sachs/Primaluna/Salk) and don't have nearly the soundstage I had in my old home.

Back then, I had a NOS Carver TFM35, a amp that has always been described as "nice upper end detail but lacking bass and having a 2D soundstage". In that room, with a humble Technics 1200mk2 and a AT7V cartridge, I got a deeper and wider soundstage.

I have much better equipment now...and there are some things that do sound better...no doubt.  But I am so curious to know what this system would sound like in my old room.

Here are a list of the things that I did that made the biggest difference from most effective to least effective:

1. I had a very good acoustical ceiling. Not the soft kind with asbestos...this was a 1950s concrete product. You would need to tear the ceiling to the beams to remove it. Acoustic ceilings get a bad rap...these things are golden for a good sounding room.

2. Nothing between the speakers but air. A year ago I would have put this at number 1 but I do believe the ceiling is more important now. I had the audio rack along the side wall...quite a bit away from the speakers. I was considering putting the rack on the other side of the wall in the bedroom and just having the speakers in the living room.  That would have been inconvenient but maybe completely remarkable! 

3. I followed the 1/5 rule: Tweeters 1/5 of room width from side walls. I could not follow the 1/5 from room depth for tweeters and listening position. Tweak from there.

4. Remove all reflective artwork from the walls.  Replace with wood carvings, framed tapestries etc.. Also try to mirror image the left and right walls as much as possible. My walls looked like a dense collage of artifacts.

5. A big, heavy Persian rug with heavy felt pad underneath. None of that non-slip netting stuff.
 

+1 sandthemall.

I am going to offend some people but I really question what their systems sound like no matter the superlatives. You have experienced yourself. There really is no substitute for acoustic treatment though advanced DSP like the BACHH may have some strong ability as noted with directional speakers.

More than anything it’s the room.

A balance between diffusion surface and volume, reflection and absorbtion is decisive... No room is similar even with the same form and the same number of doors and windows at the same place...

Why?

Because the acoustical properties of the furnitures and walls and ceilings and of the floor can be different between these 2 similar rooms...

Then even with same geometry and topology. the acoustical content that constitute the building room and furnitures will act dramatically...

In my room the soundstage and imaging and even timbre perception was increased greatly by the right balance between reflection, absorption and diffusion...

Just one tip to make you smile but it work: sound waves hate empty corner...

I replace 4 of my 5 ceiling corners with polyedral flowing shape...i use five cents materials... Results: increase in the perception particularlyof high frequencies and more refine sound all across the scale...My room was already heavily controls tough....it is just an example of what can work in a specific room...

In acoustic small change can made great improvement...

"Reading all the comments really demonstrates there's a long way to go in audio before we all agree. It almost seems totally subjective and opinion driven sometimes."

@jimofmaine.....*G*  Heart of the matter, frankly.  Mho, the only thing that can be said to be in total agreement is that things plug into each other.

Until Bluteeth and other wireless occurred....blew That away.....*shrug*

I have no proof of this but life experience:

But I also think there are certain ways your brain 'likes to...or prefers to' listen to sound. Probably different for everyone. I went deaf in my left ear for a few months in 2020 and now that I have recovered what I lost, I appreciate what your brain does to compensate. You need around 40-50% hearing in one ear to begin to 'place' and locate things in space.

For some reason, I don't hear a better soundstage when I close my eyes...even in the dark.  I do 'feel' like I hear a better sonic picture when the room is dimly lit and my eyes are open and looking somewhere between the speakers (in a blurry gaze) but obviously thinking about the music.

I'm sure a lot of you have certain conditions that you prefer when doing critical listening.

Roxy,

Wow that was all a bunch of conjecture which each participant believes is helpful. Some possibly useful but most doubtful.

Heed the expert from Atlanta who wrote the book on improving sound. ($500/day per session) He tells everyone the 1st thing to do is move everything out from between the speakers. This is 100% correct.
If you can't move it then lower it.

In my setup every piece I play has the vocalist 4 feet behind the speakers. Perhaps I do not listen to crappy recordings but who does?

The rules of physics still apply. If there is not distance open to the wall behind your speakers you will fail.

On symmetry: Also a no. Reducing early reflections is everything.
The more symmetry, the more reinforcement of early reflections.

News soon to be common knowledge:
The Amp makes all the difference.

Sometime in March 2021, A well established, US based maker will be releasing a new &  affordable product which beats all other comers. No it's not Pass. 

Sorry for the teaser. 

I have not made that little since the early 90s.

Heed the expert from Atlanta who wrote the book on improving sound. ($500/day per session

My mechanic charges way more than that.

On symmetry: Also a no. Reducing early reflections is everything.
The more symmetry, the more reinforcement of early reflections.

While early reflections are very important the rest of this statement is nonsense unless you are breaking symmetry to fix a worse issue.

The rules of physics still apply. If there is not distance open to the wall behind your speakers you will fail.

The rules of physics still apply. This statement however shows a one dimensional knowledge of acoustics (physics). It's the different between knowing what you are doing and parroting rules of thumb from others.

My experience, not hugely vast, non technical, was; as soon as I experienced minimal  XO’s as in my loudspeakers (Reference 3A Grand Veenas), phase alignment, the holography went through the roof. Further enhancement was the made through the use of tubes and room treatment, (bass management and diffraction), in that order. Undeducated ears that listen in my home, always comment first on the imaging, even unknowingly whether or not that the recording was of low or high quality, just that they were familiar with the music itself.  

@roxy1927,

Do you think you are looking for a "realistic" depth of sound-stage or an enhanced one to suit your personal preference?

My Maggie’s do I nice job of providing depth to the soundstage as I’m sure other dipole and open baffle speakers do as well.  As others have mentioned, getting speakers away from the wall, room treatments, and the quality of the recording all contribute.

Interesting Thread and Read op. Thanks for Posting. For me, this has never been an issue since I listen to Dipoles in a mid sized room with plenty of space behind and between the Magnepans. Soundstage Depth, Height and Width in spades. The Tubes in my Preamp do seem to make a slight difference so that "piece of equipment" is simply experimenting with Tubes. I found the Melz1578 & KenRad VT231 to do the job nicely.

I found this video from Dynaudio on speaker placement helpful.  As much as you would think it intuitive, this helped me a lot.  I know it is basic but, to me, it helps to have technical objective explanation of what is going on which this video does a decent job of.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b1W7QgqhR8

I have a second system in a small 11x10.5, almost square, room.  This video helped me place speakers and listening position properly and made a huge difference in getting the core setup aligned.  

Good Luck.

Several positive comments about Schumann generators, which I have not tried, so I'm intrigued. What should I look for when selecting one? Likely buying from Ali Express.

FWIW, completely concur with the importance of room treatment, learning, measuring, listening. I've done that and wouldn't do without if doing it all over again.

@mike_ostradick Thanks for the link Mike. It's a useful video. Appreciate it.

Deeper, more holographic? Consider Tannoy speakers. 

https://theaudiophileman.com/eaton/

Several positive comments about Schumann generators, which I have not tried, so I'm intrigued. What should I look for when selecting one? 

It looks like there's a lot to choose from but really its one or two almost identical circuit boards and what looks different is really nothing more than the box it comes in. I discovered this when reading reviews and one that sells for $400 when the reviewer opened the plastic case the photo of the inside shows the exact same circuit board sold on eBay for $12. 

They all use a 5V DC power supply, and many come with a USB cable so all you need is a USB charger and you're in business. Or you can buy the one Synergistic sells, it has the fanciest box of all, and its own power supply, and the highest price tag, but look close wouldn't you know the power plug label says 5V DC. Hmmm....

People will tell you put them 5 ft up off the floor and sure enough the most expensive one Synergistic sells is a tower. But they also have the black box that sits right on the floor. If indeed that's even what these are, not like I know for sure, could just all be one big coincidence. 

Anyway the ones I have are in different locations including one down low right by the power conditioner, and if there is any difference between any of them its really hard to tell. So I would just get whatever's cheap or looks okay to you and put it wherever you have an outlet, sit back, and enjoy. No matter what I can just about guarantee you will be shaking your head trying to figure out what the f is going on, and not caring, because its deep and black and natural and you just want more.

For the Schuman generators, i use a grid of 12...😁

Nobody had try what i recommended already... Use them with a thin small golden plate +herkimer diamond on top of the caps or the USB power connector...(Golden plate=shungite plate+copper tape on the external side)

That will increase their power, adding more meat to the bone-tone+envelope with the golden plate and adding more air(better decay) with the Herkimer diamond....

This increase the aura of the sound...

It seem i have too much ideas....People are afraid to expriment at low cost....Too risky to loose their face...They prefer to loose their money with costly product....It is a good thing nobody can hear my system :cost 100 peanuts butter jar....🤐🙃

😊
Electronic design components, the worst one or the best one, are always subordinated for their optimal working to mechanical, electrical and acoustical constraints( i must ban the word embeddings people are afraid of this word)
Nobody can change this fundamental fact that will help them to reach an optimal working level for any system....



Happy New Year and God give you the best sound of your life because music is what we have the more similar to heaven....For the time being....

What's a Schumann Resonator?

What’s a Schumann Resonator?

If you read here you will understand...

They are the one i used the cheapest...Schumann Generators USB powered...

Some costly one sell under 1000 bucks if you want to impress... 😊

But it is better to connect many than buy only a costly one...It is best to experiment at peanuts cost....



https://www.ebay.ca/itm/7-83HZ-Schumann-Ultra-low-Frequency-Pulse-Generator-with-USB-Cable-FM783/383251125458?hash=item593b8c14d2:g:KoYAAOSwt0Fd2PH5


« A beautiful sound is like a beautiful child, he does not know at his birth the exact cost of his delivery»-Groucho Marx

Other than room treatments you could try some JBL M2's they were designed to give a 3D like presentation. 

So if you have a grid of 12, and they are not synchronized with each other, then how do you know they are not all cancelling each other out?

It's a shame an RF engineer (or any engineer for that matter) did not design those. He would have had the sense to use both sides of the PCB for the "coil" and increase the inductance.


Of course, it is not like there are any components on that PCB to tune the magnetic coil to anywhere near 7.83Hz ... not that there would be any efficiency as an antenna even if there was.

Of course I am sure the little, near useless antenna on those units will totally dominate over the much much higher power 60Hz that surrounds you .....

Buyer beware. Your mileage may vary.

I’ve heard a million speakers in my day...  to achieve what you’re looking for - I am trying something interesting...  

i placed a pair of Heil ESS air motion tweeters on top of my towers and they have revolutionized my listening experience.  They move sound fore and aft of the speaker and the soundstage is open, airy, invisible and yet focused at the same time.

I don’t have a billion dollar budget but I’ve chased the perfect audio system my whole life - and I’m incredibly close.

not only does the stage have depth / these tweets seem to have limitless treble in the best way.  It sounds like “nothing” as opposed to a speaker box.  It’s really incredible.

I’ve heard every speaker made and this setup is incredibly FUN to listen to and I’d put it up against 800 series diamonds or the like any day.

anyone that’s come over and listened smiles immediately and says the ride is unlike anything they’ve ever heard (ina good way).

tinker and experiment!

So if you have a grid of 12, and they are not synchronized with each other, then how do you know they are not all cancelling each other out?

they are all connected by copper very thin cable in ONE grid...Then they are synchronized in some way....my ears tell me that...

Of course, it is not like there are any components on that PCB to tune the magnetic coil to anywhere near 7.83Hz ... not that there would be any efficiency as an antenna even if there was.

I never presume that this cheap design will be of high quality and i never presume that this will produce the EXACT constant famous Schumann frequencies... But who will modify for experiment a costly very good product?

But at 10 bucks it does not take Einstein to try an experiment.... I tried and i modified them.... I am not an engineer but i have a measuring apparatus that is very powerful... My standard ordinary ears...

The audible effect produced by this cheap and bad engineering chinese piece was very effective... With my modifications...

Buyer beware. Your mileage may vary.

Then your caution for a peanuts cost product used for a simple experiment is superfluous...Buy 2 and try
them before crying wolf when you see a mouse...

Of course I am sure the little, near useless antenna on those units will totally dominate over the much much higher power 60Hz that surrounds you .....

I forgot to say yes this ridiculous piece dominate the noise level better with my modification tough ...Then your knowledge veil you some other unknown facts... But the history of science is full of some who know and prove that plane cannot fly ....

You are very more knowledgeable than me in audio... I never doubt that...But you lack humility...You are not knowleadgeable in all subjects neither me...

I know nothing in audio.... It is the reason WHY i created without preconception and without fear my own audio system with ONLY very low cost devices like these chinese junk or with my homemade creation... Guess what? my ears are so happy that i will never need to upgrade... It is by no means the best system... I am not a fool.... But for his price it is the best i ever listen to.... Then....

I will repeat this audio truth i myself experience completely:

Electronic design components, the worst one or the best one, are always subordinated for their optimal working to the 3 same mechanical, electrical and acoustical constraints...
( i must ban the word embeddings people are afraid of this word)

Nobody can change this fundamental fact that will help them to reach an optimal working level for any system.... And controls devices that work in this 3 dimensions DONT need to cost more than peanuts... It is my experience after my 2 years experiments...


« Reality dont wait for explanation-Groucho Marx

By the way nevermind our arguing i wish you the best....

The setups I have heard that do it well tend to have very low distortion throughout. The speakers have very wide and balanced sound dispersion and are located accordingly with proper geometry to the listening position and distance from walls to avoid early reflections, and also the drivers tend to emulate a point source at the listening position.



The best setups I have heard in this regard by a long shot are also in highly customized and treated rooms, not your typical rectangular room found in homes. Even then results will vary widely with various recordings.

I’ve found the new KEF ls50 Metas to do soundstage depth very well in my very average 12x12 room, noticeably better than any other small monitors I have had in there including similar original ls50s prior.


Also Ohm Walsh speakers set up well do a pretty good job in general in most rooms.

But the best I have heard by far and no contest was mbl 111 speakers set up in a highly customized showroom about halfway into the room with both tapered and heavily treated curtained walls extending 12 to 15 feet to the rear. There was a big deep holographic soundstage and you could identify players in an orchestral recording exactly throughout that space. It was uncanny and the best I have ever heard by a long shot....no contest. This was at now defunct United Home Audio in Annapolis Junction MD several years back. Exact same system heard soon after in a poorly treated and very lively room at a local audio show: Meh. The room and setup is key. Few of any probably have a room at home naturally suited to recreate what I heard with the mbls set up optimally in that dealer showroom.

Eish, just lost one long written epistel due to some Agon glich... 

Yet in short... and so true! 

"The room and setup is key. Few of any probably have a room at home naturally suited to recreate what I heard with the mbls set up optimally in that dealer showroom." 

End quote. 

Totally and completely my experience when moving some years back to a new place. 

'nough said as all be just lost to the bloody ether again! 😏 😖 
Michélle 🇿🇦 

time and phase, since 1977.......

gee, I wonder where depth information comes from ?

I'm reading your tea leaves...
"You're searching for a goal that will keep moving away.
Buy some new shoes and find a nice girl.
Forget about the depth of your soundstage. It's ok as it is"

If you have decent equipment, you can accomplish your goal. You don’t need $100,000 speakers and you sure don’t need a bunch of $2 gimmicks to accomplish this.
If you don’t have a good acoustically treated room then you are going to struggle to get the best sound possible. Then speaker positioning is next. Browse the Cardas website, GIK acoustics website, or Dennis Foley’s Acoustic Fields YouTube videos on suggestions on speaker positioning and room acoustics.

Millercarbon is right about the EXACT angle necessary to position speakers.... That is mandatory...

While this certainly helps, I've never had to do that to get excellent imaging and depth. But I work with speakers that aren't beamy on the top end. If you have issues with beaminess, there will be a small sweet spot and speaker position will be critical.

The other issue I find that seems to affect depth and soundstage width is the electronics. If you have phase shift issues in the upper region of the audio band, you'll lose soundstage information as a result. Phase shift is usually caused by a rolloff that is often outside the audio band. In most amplifiers, the upper limit where the -3dB point is encountered in the amplifier's frequency response is where this phase shift starts, and it has influence down to 1/10th the cutoff frequency. So if your amplifier rolls off at 50KHz you can expect effects down to 5KHz.


Also, if your electronics has a distortion character that increases with frequency (which describes most solid state amplifiers made in the last 70 years) maximizing the soundstage will be more difficult, since you will have distortion at the higher frequencies masking low level detail that is part of the soundstage presentation (this distortion characteristic is also responsible for brightness and harshness). If you have wondered why some designers eschew negative feedback, this is why, since the application of feedback is tricky. If you have some but not enough you'll get that rising distortion with frequency thing I just mentioned. 'Enough' is usually about 35dB or more! Semiconductors that allow for the sort of gain bandwidth product (which is to feedback like gasoline is to a car) really haven't existed for most of the last 70 years.

To avoid these issues the electronics either has to have so much feedback that it doesn't make more distortion at higher frequencies and phase shift in the audio band, or you run no feedback at all and simply have a wide bandwidth amplifier. Now of course many reading this will be thinking that they are getting fine soundstaging with their older solid state gear (which almost by definition is what I've been talking about); So to be clear here I am talking about **maximizing** the ability to reproduce the soundstage correctly. You certainly can get good soundstage effects with older gear.

t always remains an illusion, I listen a lot (for corona) to live music and yes, then you can see the music and you can see and hear the depth. I also read a lot of audio magazines, and if you read that such a reviewer is talking about the soundstage and surprising depth. Well sorry, I am already quite used to audio installations, but there has been none of which you could say, for example, "hear those basses in the choir back there" A while ago I heard those Magico M2 and M6, they cost a hell of a lot the sound is fantastic but I haven't been able to perceive that depth anyway. Example: There is an audio Highend dealer in my area that sometimes organizes a listening session, with live music, which is then recorded on a Studer A80 mastermaschine, and then played and top installation with speaker from the 75K range. Yes, it is almost real. I myself have been trying for years to thin the "net curtains" between reality and the installation as possible  but it continues to make do

I agree with the comments on the room making a big impact.

In this room, I had exceptional depth.

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/6378#&gid=1&pid=1

In this room, I didn't have the same depth (but the speakers are the same model). The sound was a wide wall of sound.

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/9046#&gid=1&pid=2

Wow, OP has to be totally confused after all this! Unfortunately, optimizing audio systems is very complex undertaking, lots of good advice through  thread. Only personal experience with advice here will get you to system's full potential. Changes you undertake will have variable results.

In the end, every single thing in your system, from the ac feed to room has an effect on sound stage and imaging.

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but many rooms are not symmetrical. Positioning of speakers and acoustic treatments must take this into effect.

In this room, I had exceptional depth.

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/6378#&gid=1&pid=1

In this room, I didn't have the same depth (but the speakers are the same model). The sound was a wide wall of sound.

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/9046#&gid=1&pid=2

Let me see, ah!!! yes more image and depth destroying stuff between the speakers in the second one.
And the first one would have been even better again if what is between the speakers was moved to the side instead.

Cheers George

Add an ambient rear channel, which is NOT just two more speakers in the back. Look up what an ambient loop is. Also, if you can find one, a Dynaco Quadapter is essential if you want to maintain an 8 ohm or 4 ohm front speaker setup. I've been using this setup since 1972, and it blows away any supposed 4 channel system. My email is prvk@earthlink.net if you want to get in touch with me.  :-)

If you want depth, this setup will give you audible depth.