Your journey with lower-watt tube amps -- Can a kit be good enough?

There are not that many tube amp kit sellers these days.  I've heard decent sounding amps from ANK (a company that makes kits based on Audio Note (uk) designs and utilizing a lot of Audio Note-sourced components).  I've also heard nice kit amps from Sun Valley and Elekit.  I know that Elekit offers many options for upgrading the parts in their amps, including using higher quality output transformers.  In tube amp, the most important thing is the quality of the output transformer.  Amps from kit suppliers, like the one's I mentioned above, are very good bargains for the money, but, their being so few kit amps available, it would be hard to find ones that fit your specific needs and requirements (like remote control),  Most of the kits are for simpler designs, like very low-powered single-ended triode amps); if that fits your bill, and you are up to the challenge, that would be a fun way to go.

I've heard good examples of tube amps that utilize PCB for most of their circuits.  These amps, if designed well can be reasonably reliable and are readily fixable.  I would not rule out any candidate just because it does utilize PCBs.  Note too that some designs that look like they are using PCBs are actually using boards to lay out components, but the connections are by point-to-point wiring.

Generally speaking, it takes a lot of experience, help from knowledgeable, or luck, to get into buying vintage tube gear.  It is not easy to find shops where such gear can be found in good condition and where you can actually hear the item at the shop or in your own system.  Vintage tube gear can be quite a bargain and can sound very good because the technology behind tube gear is really mature and has not really advanced in MANY years.  Among the very best sounding tube amps are amps made  around 1930 (e.g., certain Western Electric amps).  Also, many vintage amplifiers can be brought back to near new condition by replacing parts with stuff that is available today, while many vintage solid state amps don't have available parts.  

Here's the situation: I have new speakers, 97 db. Trying them with lower watt tube amps (45/211, 300b, etc) seems generally wise. I am attempting to borrow some from audiophiles in the area. 

@hilde45 Unless your room is a smaller one, SETs using the tubes you mention here won't have enough power if you want realistic volume levels. They might sound 'loud' when playing such amps but if you use a sound level pressure meter (available as an app for most phones) you'll see they really aren't playing that loud- their 'loud' quality is brought on by distortion rather than volume, and how the distortion interacts with the human ear.

My speakers at home are 98dB and I found I needed more like 50 Watts; less than that and the amp seemed to strain a bit unless playing at lower volume levels. I don't play stuff all that loud FWIW, but if I go over 95dB I want the system to remain relaxed and effortless.

It won't matter if the amp is handwired or circuit board as far as sound is concerned, although a handwired amp can be updated a bit more easily and might hold up better in a tropical environment (such as on the coast in Florida).

I think you can still get Dynaco kits. A properly refurbished and/or properly built ST-70 can give any SET a run for the money, especially if given the benefit of good quality parts. For that matter we make a little 5 Watt stereo amp that can run circles around any SET that is near its output power. The 'magic' of SETs is mostly a made up story, based on the simple fact that when the SET is compared to a PP amp, the playing field is anything but level. When the PP amp has the same power rating and is built properly, the advantages of SETs go away.

SETs have a lot of weaknesses. I can go into them if you are interested; not going to list them all here. But two big ones are: you have to be very careful of the loudspeakers used as SETs usually have no feedback so the normal Voltage rules the typically govern speaker design don't work for them; in addition SETs only make about 20-25% usable power so the speakers have to be more efficient than most people think. So about 99% of speakers made are inappropriate for them.

The other problem is bass. SETs aren't good at that because the output transformer typically lacks the inductance needed to make bass, on account of having something called a 'cut core' which is a saw cut in the core of the transformer, put there to reduce distortion caused by DC flowing thru the transformer to feed the power tube. The lack of inductance means at low frequencies the tube is driving something very nearly a short (as far as the tube is concerned; put another way its driving the DC resistance of the winding of the transformer which is a couple orders magnitude lower than the impedance the tube is meant to see) and that's hard on the tube.

So for best results with SETs, its a good idea to prevent bass getting into the amp. The most successful SET installations I've seen and heard all used a different amp for the bass and had some sort of crossover to prevent the SET from having to deal with the bass.

The one exception to this problem are the Berning SETs, which use a patented system that gets rid of the traditional output transformer, using instead a radio frequency method of coupling between the power tube and the loudspeaker.

Listen to the advice from @atmasphere but take the advice from @carlsbad2 with a grain of salt. The whole point to point vs circuit board argument has many intangibles that need to be considered. It's not black and white. I also would not focus so much on the sensitivity spec but rather focus on the output impedance of the amp vs the impedance curve of the speaker. There are a lot of nice SET kits and SET DIY projects out there, but a nice low power PP amp kit will be a better option. There is one exception in my opinion and that is the Class A3 amp circuits from Jack Elliano.

I mentioned to @hilde45 about eight members who all paralleled together on this same path about 8-10 years ago, many of us owning different generations of the same amps at the same times, all following each other around - making the next round of upgrades again to the same or next builders.

The DESIGNER and the types of circuits used with different types of tubes became the most fun for me. I eventually bowed out and went back to higher power amps, both tube monos and solid state.

The lower power amps did not like me and my speakers too much. There was this cool euphoric sound with a lack of drive and lacking dynamics in my case. Finally gave up, could never seem to get it right. Had the wrong speakers for it is my summation now.

What @atmasphere mentioned above about room "sound pressure levels" and/or lack thereof is something I experienced first hand. Could not quite explain it at the time. Then swapping in/out other more capable amps with more current/power which brought that back was a bit perplexing at that time. Quite an interesting realization that I sensed was going on yet could not explain what it was exactly. Thanks for posting this topic in this thread, I think this gets overlooked a lot fwiw.

I’ve built both PCB and all point to point kits. For me, the decision is not about sonics but about ease of construction and upgradability. PCBs are much harder to solder and much easier to screw up than the lugs of a point to point build. If you want to upgrade down the line, any parts on the PCB are also going to be way harder to unsolder and replace.

Like Ralph, I prefer more power even with my very efficient Zu Druids, but lots of people love the SET sound regardless of speaker choice. You would do well to try to borrow one or more to see how you like it before investing in a kit. If you buy a kit before listening and end up not liking it, the resale value of kits is pretty dismal, not to mention all the time it took to build it.

As far as value vs. pre-made, these days I prefer to listen to music rather than build kits. It’s all I can do to drag out the tube tester to make sure everything is operating at spec.

I built the Elekit TU-8600S kit with all the upgrades and put the new Western Electric 300Bs in it.  It’s fabulous and drives my 94dB speakers with ease.

highly recommended!

Thanks for the comments. Had a busy day. Need to think about @atmasphere comments bc the speakers I currently own have been driven pretty nicely with an 8w Sun Valley amp in a room larger than mine. (24 x 15 x 8 approx.). That said, there may have been additional tweaks that helped mitigate some issues you're mentioning.

Here’s a photo of them driving very similar (nearly identical) speakers to mine with the sun valley in the center. I’ll get back to the thread with more details when I can.

https://photos.fife.usercontent.google.com/pw/AP1GczNHf3PQV-V-aqEGWeygA7l6aycbB_8YIU8fzaz1k6x8Cap29ejjMN1e=w1441-h891-s-no-gm?authuser=0

I always thought the Audio Note Kits looked pretty nice:

https://ankaudiokits.com/product/kit1-kit1-10-300b-integrated-amplifier/

yes theres quite a few kits just for you

I had DIY 300B amp that I tweaked and in the end rebuild it from scratch. For 300B is very important the driver tube (more powerful is better) and driver inter-stage transformer works much better compared to RC coupling. 

How many maximal dB do we need for classical, rock, jazz music?

It looks like the distortions from 50Watt heat on the speaker's voice coil and crossover parts should be much more horrible then 10% SET distortion on maximal power distortions. 

I think it’s important to realize everyone has different hearing ability and ways they enjoy their music. Do you sit in a chair that’s perfectly positioned and analyze each aspect of the music and wonder if it could be improved if you just…..Are you usually doing things and walking around so need bigger sound? 
‘I had a Rotel amp and pre, B&W speakers and Velodyne sub for 23 years. That was what I was used to. Listen to classic rock mostly and some jazz. When time came to replace my system, my buddy convinced me to try tubes. Started with a Synthesis amp, el34 and 45 watts or so and Zu Soul Supreme speakers. Was definitely a rock and roll set up and was plenty loud. Set up gave me ear fatigue to the point of headaches. Moved on to an Aric Audio 300b pset amp, 22 watts and Audio Note speakers. Best sound I’ve ever had by far. It’s wonderful. Some of the criticisms mentioned above can correct in some cases. For example, my Metallica does lack a bit of punch. The speakers go low but perhaps you don’t feel it as much. Remember this is coming from a guy who had a sub for 23 years. Is it a slight trade off? Perhaps. I feel the quality sound is worth it. Also, I don’t listen to the same music anymore. I’m much more into jazz, Father John Misty/Bon Iver/nora Jones type music now, which is what set amps excel at in my opinion. 
‘So I think you need to figure out what it is you want to listen to and choose wisely. I’d say as a general guide set is great for 90db and lower for most music, maybe not heavy base r&b. Push pull with more watts can pretty much get loud and rock but perhaps doesn’t have the characteristics that make a set amp so enjoyable. Solid state is solid state. Has its advantages but maybe not as natural sounding. 
‘Anyway, good luck and choose wisely. 

A similar thread happened here before. (And I’m sure will again). Atmosphere makes amps he is quite knowledgeable. But and it’s big but, he’s already gone through many iterations of hifi and made he’s conclusions. I don’t agree with them, for one very important reason, this is a hobby, it’s so much fun to explore, it’s not have people tell you you won’t like something when in fact, if your like me or many others, you actually will. I think this is how to quote the prior thread. Maybe just buy used amps and see how they sound and sell them on if not to your liking. prior thread - https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/300b-or-2a3-set-class-a-for-heretic-model-a

@hilde45 

I know I sound like a broken record, I have had a lot of tube amps with my Klipsch Forte IVs and now my go to speakers are the Volti Razz, and never was satisfied until I took the leap and spent 5k on the First Watt Sit-4. With only 10 watts of class A it rocks my world. The music has a soul now and when my beautiful patience wife calls me for dinner I am always late wanting to play one more song. Forget about all those tubes, get it out of your mind…find one…I buy all my Pass and First watt from Jon at Refined Audio a awesome guy…call him…everything in the music is so sweet now with out worrying about a tube frying out…I am sure Jon will give you a audition time 30 days…

@armstrod -- thanks for your advice. Good to try before sinking in that time and money!

@dougthebiker -- Elekit! Thanks!
@paradisecom -- thanks for the ank link
@yaluaka -- thanks for the link to the other thread. I’d not seen it. I had a different way of framing the question and appreciate the feedback here and the dialogue with others, including you.
@silverfoxvtx1800 I have heard these speakers with the Pass XA25 and the Sit-3. I agree they sound lovely and though there are differences, the Pass sounds similar to my ears. I’m curious to see if these lower-powered tube amps sound, well, different. It sounds like you are at the stage where you want to just be done with trying gear and listen to one more song! That’s cool, but I’m still curious about the variety of sounds which my speakers can produce with new dance partners. I’m not ready to "set it and forget it." 
@earthbound -- Thanks for the advice. I listen to what you listen to, mainly. This amp will be an addition to other amps that can fulfill the needs of Metallica -- or Mahler, Wagner. I’m a critical listener, not moving around the room. So, if this amp (whoever she is) comes into my life, I will be using it for the kind of music which suits the design.

@clio09 Thanks for your reply. You said to listen to atmasphere, and he said "It won’t matter if the amp is handwired or circuit board as far as sound is concerned." You then pointed out, "The whole point to point vs circuit board argument has many intangibles that need to be considered. It’s not black and white." What "intangible" factor are you referring to?

@decooney Thanks for commenting. I’m not giving up my Pass XA25 or my QS Mono 60’s so I won’t be out on a limb with this next amp. I also know that these speakers have worked fine with SET amps in a room around my size, so it’s a question of finding the right amp for these speakers in my space with my other gear.

Have you checked out the offerings by bottlehead?

looking at bottlehead, yes

I have a full Bottllehead system, consisting of a BeePre 2 preamp, a Kaiju 8W power amp, a Mainline headphone amp, and an Eros 2 phono preamp. The BeePre and Kaiju use 300B tubes. I am running Bottlehead Jager speakers, which are 94 dB, and are voiced to work well with low-power SET setups. This is my main system, and I love how it sounds. I haven't done much in the way of modifying my kits from OEM, but lots of people upgrade their Bottlehead gear with boutique components. My secondary system consists of a Rega Elex Mk4, 72W integrated amp with Dynaudio Contour 20 speakers and a subwoofer. I find that I like the Bottlehead system at least as much as my SS system. It won't totally rock a large room at only 8W, but in my smaller space the Bottlehead SET system is very sweet and engaging.

Bottlehead kits come with awesome instructions, and their excellent forum provides the extra help one sometimes needs when assembling the kits. If you can solder and are at least a bit mechanically inclined, Bottlehead kits are a lot of fun to put together. I highly recommend them.

Some excellent comments so far / should give you lots to think about.

a couple to add:

Vkmusic in Vancouver sells Elekit and will assemble them for a reasonable fee

i tried a 2A3 set with my 95db Omegas and wasn’t impressed- lacked drive and dynamics and to me, the mids weren’t significantly better than my modified ST35 in my small 12x14’ room

The most underestimated and sometimes overlooked challenge for me with trying of SET amps was the speaker matching. Getting that spot-on is the key imo. And, I was not willing to focus on one-trick-pony speakers where some do well at this part. If you watch buyers/sellers over the last few decades, this stuff comes and goes, people try it and move on too. Everyone looking for sonic bliss :)

My local dealer sells mostly AudioNote, lots of SET amps and speakers all designed and made by AudioNote to work with specific amps too. I go in and listen periodically to 4-5 different systems there. It’s very specific I find with those systems. Some times you love the sound, other times you don’t, it can vary for some individuals even down to the mood they are in that day, lol.

Some times my local dealer will pair up other speaker brands with some of the 10w amps both push pull and SET. It’s an art form to get it right and years later I can see pros/cons of both SET and non-SET, or Parallel Single Ended amps vs. Push Pull amps.

The designer of my current amps does not build SET any more, and has nudged me a few times to say my current Ultralinear mono tube amps sound better and work better in his opinion for my 93db speakers. So, I defer to the Subject Matter Experts about SET amps now because it’s quite costly to get it right and some of don’t have room for extra speakers just sitting around to swap in/out all the time.

WHEN it’s right, some times a great SET amp and speaker pairing can be absolutely fantastic and intoxicating to listen to if the music is right for it imo.

Seems to me buying recommended amps and speakers that are known to pair very well together is they way to save a lot of time/money/headaches. Best of Luck on the Trial and Error parts it takes some willingness, readiness to risk, and patience. If you get it right it can be bliss too as others will share and not stand down on the topic LOL. 

Many different points of view. I will add a few of my own for the OP.

--a kit would not typically be a big factor in my decision making. Why? Simple. The markup of amps from Elekit, Analogue Ethos, AK kits from kit to pre-built is actually small and insignificant (a few hundred dollars) and if you factor in your time I do not think you are saving much. Now, if you are into many upgrades/mods, if you love the satisfaction/nostalgia of kit building--go for it!

--one poster states that low powered SET amps, even with efficient speakers, are a no go. He knows more about tube amps than I ever will. But I trust my ears. In my secondary system, I have a 4wpc SET driving Omega speakers. Especially since I added a small pair of REL subs, I am shocked at how much of my music collection sounds great on this system. Also note, I run the Omegas full range with no crossover and these are in a fairly large room. Does it do everything my high powered primary system does? Of course not. But 90% of my music sounds so good on this system I could be happy with this for the rest of my life. In fact, some of my CD’s sound better on this system than my main system.

--speaker/amp matching is critical with SET amps.  In this setting, full range drivers are a natural choice IMO.

The only tube amp I would consider after having almost every brand of small tube amps is from Cary Audio the SLI-80HS intergrated….

I would have my solid state handy when you have tube problems or get tired of the  sound when your favorite song comes on with killer bass the small tube amp can not keep up with..

The Sit-4 doesn’t sound like the Sit-3…

I was in your shoes 2 years ago. I was looking at going with a McIntosh Hybrid Integrated amp. I went to Richmond to listen to it and it really didn’t do it for me. They had a pair of Mc275’s that we hooked up and it was more my taste, but brought in the need for a pre-amp. Trying to get the best bang for the buck as we all are doing, I did my research and ended up with building my own mono blocks from Tubes 4 Hifi. I was looking for higher power than you are, I’m running a pair of their M125’s (roughly 120watts each- with KT120’s). Also built the SP-14 from them for my pre-amp. Had a couple of headaches due to the transformers not being wired properly out of the factory, but once we solved that issue, smooth sailing, absolutely love this setup. Getting ready to build a phono stage and get me a Scout II.

I’d recommend a custom built tube amp from Tube Audio Labs in Iowa.  I have a 300b from them and it fits your budget.

Sorry, long TLDR: try it

Sounds like what I just went through. I also had an "itch" I had to scratch, I picked up some 98db speakers, which were designed/voiced with a 300b amp (also built by the speaker manufacturer). I am sure if I posted as you did looking for suggestions I would have received several "don’t try a 45 tube amp, no where near enough power" so I didn’t post- I just went ahead and did it based on plenty of other reviews/anecdotes that stated that the 45 tube was the best of the bunch, and I’m glad I did it! It is off golf season and I am retired, so I generally surf the internet researching what many have done/known/experienced and posted for about 50 hours a week.

First I appreciate very much @atmasphere posting on here, and filling the threads with his vast knowledge. He of course has had plenty of negative posts I am sure over the years, more than enough for most manufacturer’s to bow out of the forums and vow to never return. (Reminds me that it was "refreshing" to read what Charles Hansen had to say years ago (RIP)). And the internet seems to be getting more negative by the day- more and more "expert" opinions and less and less facts; not just audio forums but in general. Absolutely Ralph has forgotten more about amplifiers than I will ever know, and some of what he wrote above is over my head, but it is nice to have those who do this audiophile thing for a living post their knowledge so that some of us can digest it.

Having said that my latest experience contradicts some of what he has said. But first, as some have referenced above, how loud do you listen? The World Health Organization suggests at 95db one should only listen to music for just over 1 hour per week. 90 db and you are good for 4 hours per week. I don’t know about you but I want to listen for much longer than that, and more importantly I want to retain what hearing I have left, so I can enjoy this hobby more many more years. (Interesting in that I have noticed a few ads on Audiomart in the past few months where someone is claiming their reason to sell is due to hearing loss)

Even at 80db SPL WHO suggests 40 hours per week. It is unclear if that is total, or just "work SPL". If someone mows their lawn twice a week without hearing protection, uses their Vitamix daily, watches a movie on their home theatre with peaks at 95db etc. well now perhaps you can listen for 30 hours a week? I have been listening to my hifi for 12 hours a day. Right now I am playing Tsuyoshi Yamamoto at 50db. At night I might have peaks of 80db but that is as high as I will take it.

So for me, why bother paying attention to a spec of "50 watts required for 95db" when I will never get there?

Using those same numbers that is the same power of:

25 watts for 92db, 12.5w for 89db, 6.3w for 86db, and 3.2w for 83db.

Knowing this, and I also have a smaller room for this experiment, I took a plunge on a Yamamoto A-08s 45 tube amp (no relation to Tsuyoshi ), and it surprised me how loud it goes! My 98 db@1w speakers are a nice flat impedance curve (I am told) which is easier to drive, yet they are 4ohms I believe I am getting not 2 watts per side but more like 1.7 wpc? And it sounds glorious! At this point I don’t see myself ever selling this amp. I have a 300b on the way (shipped today!) as well so I will rotate amps around for a "saveur du jour" as if I use one amp for half the time the tubes will last twice as long, please correct me if that math is wrong. And the bass? Or a lack of it as some suggest one will get from a little flea amp?* Please, travel to my house and tell me there is lack of quality bass here: There is not- it is perfect- deep, rich, taut but not too tight, tuned and awash with texture, gradations and nuances -absolutely perfect -as long as the recording was of sufficient quality. And in the 3 weeks I have owned this little amp I have yet to max it out, so at 75db listening average I am probably using less than 1 watt per channel- amazing!

Interestingly, even some older pop and rock recordings surprise me with the quality and details of bass guitars and drums that I have never heard before. Looks like some of the reviews of this amp from over a decade ago were accurate: It is one hell of a little amp. I don’t know if I just lucky with a good matching with my speakers and others don’t get the same result, I don’t have that knowledge. If there are "weaknesses with a SET" they have not been apparent to me yet.

On top of my excitement on the sound quality it is gorgeous to look at, and the point to point wiring is so precise it demonstrates the amount of care and passion Mr. Yamamoto puts into his products. He manufactures virtually every part of this amp by hand. Beautiful.

And if you are wondering what I was listening to before the Yamamoto it was a Coda 15.5. Bass may not as powerful as some, but surely not lacking. I am still keeping it as it will be the high channel amp for my Magnepans.

*One other point worth emphasizing, and I see you have tube amps already so you probably are aware, but you and I both did it here in this thread: Stating all 45 tube amps, or 300b amps are in the same class is incorrect. You might have read the same claims that I have: "300b tube amps have great mids but wooly and have no bass", or have rolled off frequency response, but what they aren’t telling you is they have or have listened to the bottom end quality of those designs. As @larryi stated above the quality of the output transformer will have a huge impact on the quality of the bottom end, and I assume other frequencies as well.

Funny that if someone posted that they don’t like transistor amps because they have a brittle and shrill top end everyone would jump on that poster and ask which one specifically he was referring to- but in a tube thread only very few state the same response, and most assume "a 300b tube amp is a 300b tube amp".

So there is my flea-tube amp journey so far. Not much kit-info for you but interestingly the Yamamoto was available as a kit. Personally I would not buy an amp from someone who learned how to solder on a tube amp kit. The money you would save buying it you would loose on resale. As your room is not too much larger than mine and if your required sound pressure level is reasonable I say give it a go! Only one way to find out!

How many maximal dB do we need for classical, rock, jazz music?

It looks like the distortions from 50Watt heat on the speaker's voice coil and crossover parts should be much more horrible then 10% SET distortion on maximal power distortions. 

@alexberger The point isn't to use all that power! In the best installations, the amplifier should be loafing. No matter what kind of amp you have, the harder you make it work for a living the more distortion it will make. IOW the point is to make clean power at normal listening levels. When its clean, it won't sound 'loud'.

I don’t agree with them, for one very important reason, this is a hobby, it’s so much fun to explore, it’s not have people tell you you won’t like something when in fact, if your like me or many others, you actually will.

@yaluaka The stuff I said about SETs having troubles with bass (there are other problems too but I'm focusing on just this one for this post) is very real. I certainly agree that the exploration can be quite fun (I've built a number of SETs since the early 1990s and did it solely for that reason). But the engineering issue about bass has been known for many decades (google 'elliptical load line' and you'll see what I'm talking about). That is why I said that the most successful SET installations (and some of the most avid SET lovers I know) have some means to keep bass out of the SET. When you do that the mids and highs get a lot better! Its not subtle.

Atmasphere your viewpoint in this discussion repetitively shuts down people learning and exploring. The whole discussion about bass, about distortion, and many of the other salient points you’ve raised, while one hand accurate, are on the other hand wholly irrelevant. Distortion for instance is a tonal color. It is not a bugaboo though I’m sure many audiophiles think it is. Maybe there’s not as much bass etc, but for me the way to listen to music, is to listen to music not equipment. Listen, don’t analyze. I find tube triodes to give me immense musical pleasure despite their drawbacks. I’ve learned long ago that a non audiophile approach to musical listening, not comparing things, not worrying about specs, not thinking about perfection but instead listening to music is for me how I get the most pleasure out of this hobby. 

That is why I said that the most successful SET installations (and some of the most avid SET lovers I know) have some means to keep bass out of the SET. When you do that the mids and highs get a lot better! Its not subtle.

I could easily do this as I already have a Marchand XM44. Hmmm... 

@hilde45 

Getting to this party late, but my experience over the last year is exactly what you are considering doing.

I bought an Elekit 300B amp already built (the 8600S with Lundahl transformers and Mundorf Supreme coupling capacitors) to try on a lark. At that point I had Wilson Sabrina speakers driven by a Modwright KWA 150SE amp (150 watts into 8 ohms). Tried the Elekit amp with the Sabrinas, knowing this was a mismatch, and was blown away by the sound. 

Thus the quest continued. At this point I now have two SET systems. One with Spatial Audio X3 speakers (97 dB sensitivity) driven by an Aric Audio 300B SET amp, and one with Charney Audio Maestro speakers with Voxativ AC-2.6 full range drivers (98 dB sensitivity) driven by an Air Tight 300B SET amp. 

It is important to note, as Ralph alluded to above, that both systems have auxiliary subwoofers. The Spatial X5's have 12" bass drivers with separate on-board Class D amplification, and the Charney Maestros are augmented with two SVS subwoofers crossed over at 100 dB.

But, both systems sound better than any of the many other systems I have put together. Not just in my opinion, but in the opinion of friends who listened to both the current SET systems and my previous higher powered systems. And, no disrespect to Ralph, both systems measure better in my rooms than my previous systems, based on measurements using REW software.

Lastly, although I started with a kit amplifier (which I still have), to my ears both the Aric Audio and Air Tight amplifiers are superior. Of course, the Aric and Air Tight amps were more than twice the price even when purchased used.

So, my advice is go forward! For two reasons: as stated above, because that is what this hobby is all about, but also because you may end up with the best sounding system you have yet to find.

Good luck!

GAR

Hilde45:

My long term experience is with an Audion Silver Night DH/SET 300B amp and my currently owned/early DH/SET 2A3 Bottlehead kits.

I’ve also tried (@ home) an early "single ended" Decware amp (EL84/6922 I think), an Audion "single ended" EL34 based amp and a few vintage "single ended" EL84 based amps (Magnavox and one "stamped" RCA that may have been of Japanese manufacture).

If you want to try single ended (not DH/SET) cheap look into the current model SE Coincident EL34 based integrated amp.

Good reviews, less expensive tubes (even for really good ones) and there’s a used one for sale a 30 minute drive from Denver (you know the place).

I’m not familiar with contemporary Bottlehead (my amps are 20+ years old), but the reviews are good.

I’ve looked into Elekit and would go with the better Lundahl (sp?) OT upgrade, but I’m not certain if they have PT’s for 115AC as most listed are for 100 (the vendor in Canada could answer this).

Anyway, try it is my rec as I’ve enjoyed my meager DH/SET setup (no highs/tweeters - no lows/woofers) for the past 20+ years.

PS:

On the really cheap (just single ended/not DH/SET) Musical Paradise has a little integrated SE amp for $500, or so.

I would buy it from the local vendor (think he’s in Canada).

DeKay

Atmasphere your viewpoint in this discussion repetitively shuts down people learning and exploring. The whole discussion about bass, about distortion, and many of the other salient points you’ve raised, while one hand accurate, are on the other hand wholly irrelevant.

@yaluaka  The way you write suggests to me that we have very similar goals. When I put on an LP I don't want to be thinking about the system. I want it out of the way so I get the full experience of the music and nothing else.

I'm really trying to save people from flushing perfectly good dollars down the loo rather than trying to shut down discussion. You'll note I suggested some simple solutions for getting the most out of any SET on this thread. I can outline them again if you like.

How relevant my comments are depends on what you play for music. I have recordings I recorded, so having been there when that happened, I know how they are supposed to sound. I enjoy electronic music and some of that has really deep bass. So its only irrelevant if you limit the kinds of music to which you listen. If you only play chamber music or light jazz or folk you'll probably be fine. But if you have an original LP pressing of Hendrix's Electric Ladyland, King Crimson's In the Wake of Posiden, ELP's first LP and so on you really won't get to experience what those records are all about with an SET because of the bass issue (if nothing else). If you can find a copy of RCA's Soria series recording of Verdi's Requiem its the same thing. They really didn't compress that LP and it can bring any SET system to its knees in very short order (side one, track 2 if interested).

BTW its not just SETs that have problems making bass properly. A lot of early solid state stuff does too. That issue with solid state went into the early 1970s until silicon transistors got good enough that complementary symmetry was finally possible. A lot of those amps are nowhere near as musical as a lot of SETs not as if that's any revelation...

Maybe there’s not as much bass etc, but for me the way to listen to music, is to listen to music not equipment. Listen, don’t analyze. I find tube triodes to give me immense musical pleasure despite their drawbacks.

FWIW I've been building triode power amplifiers for over 47 years. Its not triodes that have the drawbacks I described; triodes can go right down to DC if you want. Its the output transformers in SETs that have the limitations. David Berning is the only one I know of whoever figured a way around that and unsurprisingly his amps get very good comments. 

@decooney Thanks for commenting. I’m not giving up my Pass XA25 or my QS Mono 60’s so I won’t be out on a limb with this next amp. I also know that these speakers have worked fine with SET amps in a room around my size, so it’s a question of finding the right amp for these speakers in my space with my other gear.

Sure. I do wonder if it could also be a functional and costlier challenge of finding a quality kit SET amp that's an improvement over what you already own right now - if overall performance is a consideration.  

@hilde45 I will keep it simple, it should always be about the circuit design. Whether the circuit is executed on a board or hand wired should not matter. What matters is starting with a well thought out circuit design. It's helpful if the design is reliable and if needed, easily serviceable as well. So circuit layout and parts selection are important intangibles as well.

VK Music assembled preamp and p/p Elekit amp and SunValley phono preamp with all the upgrades. Very Happy and very Good Service! Highly Recommended…

Many thanks to the additional posters and to the additional advice. Lots of brands to consider (Yamamoto, wow!) and varying advice about kit vs. used, etc.

One thing I notice at work that puts people on different sides of an issue has to do with framing -- is an amp purchase like "getting a car" or like "taking a vacation"?

We want to have a good outcome with both, but we want a "car" to do "the job." We want a "vacation" to not be unpleasant, but we often want "surprise," "novelty," and to gain "new perspectives."

Some people want audio to do a job. Some want from audio what they get from an interesting journey or vacation. After a vacation, that money is gone. You don’t resell a vacation. You come out the other side a slightly different person. That’s what I want from audio. That difference might come from trying something that is not "end game" but will teach me something, and add perspective.

@hilde45  I appreciate your vacation analogy. I enjoy the experience from trying different approaches to this audio hobby. Could not manage it in the past, however now have kids through college and have house paid off. 

My first time vacationing to a new part of the world is a survey trip to get a feel for the different kinds of experiences available. There second and third are long stays in the place and for the experience I then know I want. 

I built and now use my DIY amplifier not to save money but because I wanted to make an amplifier better than the market offers. 

I use output and interstage Hashimoto transformers plus James Audio and Hashimoto power transformers and Hashimoto chokes,

and many other expensive parts. Only the parts for my amplifier cost me $7000. 

My speakers are Alteс 604E. According to the passport, their sensitivity is 102 dB per 1 watt/1 m. In fact, their real sensitivity is 97-98 dB 1w/1m. 

The vast majority of manufacturers overstate the sensitivity of speakers. These speakers do not have very deep bass.It is around 40Hz.

So it makes the life of the amplifier easie.

My listening room is L-shaped, with a 300 square foot main area, a smaller 120 square foot section, and 8-foot ceilings.

I don't have any issue with playing super load +105dB and I don't have any issue with speed and bass in different styles of music.

But it took me many years to improve the amplifier and to make it sound good with different kinds of music that people think don't suit SET amplifiers.

Hilde:

Like the "vacation" take.

I don't care about true to the source/low lows/high highs - I just want to be entertained and fooled a bit - take a brief vacation while listening.

DeKay

@alexberger

I use output and interstage Hashimoto transformers plus James Audio and Hashimoto power transformers and Hashimoto chokes,

How do those sound compared to Tamura F-5000 or 7000 series?

Hi @mclinnguy ,

I never had Tamura output transformers. But I had James Audio.

Hashimoto gives more low level details then James Audio. It terms of tonal balance they sound similar.

But other tweaks that I did (cathodes, power supply capacitors, adding inter-stage transformer, changing driver tubes ) gave more difference than a simple change of output transformer.  

@dekay 

I don't care about true to the source/low lows/high highs

You must have Bose? 

Elac S517...

https://www.soriaudio.com/index.php?mid=audio&document_srl=27441675

DeKay

Why check for a Kit when you can find a low watt Dennis Had Inspire amp and preamplifier? They’ve been delivering the goods for audiophiles for 10 years, are extremely reliable, and sound fabulous. And, you can Tube roll to your hearts content  

The company that currently supplies Dynaco kits is often out of stock, but you could buy one of these: https://www.analogethos.com/pacific-63

A couple of modest but meaningful improvements to the original--a better bias circuit and less feedback--and they are handmade in the USA. I haven't heard one, but the original sounded great, as did Shannon Parks' diytube clone, one of which I used happily for 20 years,  so I suspect these will too.

There will also be kits available soon if you want to go that route. And the wonderful EL84 tube is readily available in both new production and NOS from multiple sources. 

Thanks for the feedback and glad some like the vacation analogy.

I’ve heard from a reputable source that if a Dennis Had amp breaks he is near impossible to get in touch with and does not share schematics that this tech needed to fix it. Only after a long while did they finally hear back. This is not the kind of situation I want to find myself in.

@lafish thanks for the https://www.analogethos.com/diytubekit link

@hilde45 

Another vote for getting a Dynaco ST-70.  The kits a pretty easy and they sound very good from the get go and there are a bunch of mods out there so you can model the sound to your liking and all for way under your budget.

All the best.

Just my two cents, but having owned multiple ST70s and ST35s, I like the ST35 much better. OTOH, ST70 is much easier to find, and you can get a somewhat updated version from tubes4audio.com. Assembled or kit. They have a EL84 amp do, but it’s more closed related to the Audio Note than to the Dynamic.

If you like the idea of a kit (or they will build a complete amplifier), I agree with the Dynaco design option. The company Tubes4hifi has kits and fully assembled amplifiers based on some of the most popular Dynaco products: ST-35, ST-70 and ST-120.

The ST-70 uses EL34, 6L6, or KT-66 tubes power tubes, and puts out 30ish WPC depending on tubes. Uses 12AU7 driver tubes, and a 5U4G rectifier. Completed amplifiers are about $1,650 with all tubes.

I own their VTA ST-120 amplifier, that I've had for 5 years or so, and I can tube roll power tubes (6550, KT-88, KT-120, or KT-150), 12AU7 drivers and 5U4G rectifier. Power varies with power tube choices, but I think the 6550s are around 45 WPC and up to 80ish WPC with KT-150s. Completed amps with all tubes are $2,050 with 6550 or KT-88, and more with KT-120s and KT-150s

I also have Aric Audio and CODA amps, but will not get rid of the KT-120....not sure if it is what you are looking for, but they are really good amps