@cfarrow Thanks for relating all that. Really interesting.
FWIW, last night I did some listening comparisons comparing the Sun Valley 845 vs. QS Mono 60 w/ KT77 tubes. I used my solid state amp (very neutral) and my Holo Spring DAC. All of my descriptions relate to how things sound in *my* room, of course.
Main impressions: Sun Valley 845's tonality was a bit softer, more detailed, further back in the soundstage, and slightly narrower soundstage (but very good); the bass was weaker, sometimes too weak. It was a bit less snappy in transients but still quite good—not sloppy at all. Instruments and voices had a bit more texture. It was very easy to listen to; never strident or approaching strident.
QS had better transients and dynamics by a bit; it had much better bass, and instruments were more forward in the soundstage. Voices and instruments were detailed but not as much, a bit less warm and intimate.
Overall: hard to say which is better. They were different, though both obviously tube amps. I suspect that a tube amp like the Sun Valley with a bit more grip on the speakers which keeps the intimate/texture/smoothness and improves the bass might beat them both.
Not sure if any of this translates for folks, but sharing just in case.
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I have plenty of dynamics, no roll off at frequency extremes with my Tron 211 amplifier used with my Mhorn speakers rated at 93db. I easily get sound in the 90db+ in my 15x18 listening area. It’s all about speaker matching and how well the amplifier is built in reference to power supplies. The amplifier needs to have power reserves when needed. I have use 45, 2a3, 300b and 211 tubes in amplifiers I have owned over the years. I agree with most on the 45 and 2a3 power output that you need 98db efficiency plus speakers(I prefer 100db +). I used both of these tubes in Yamamoto and Triode Lab amplifiers with Klipsch Forted IV and that was in a larger room and was satisfied with the sound. The 45 tube is the best sounding to me but your only going to get so much volume out of it and that’s a tube that I think needs 102db or better to get the most out of it unless your in a smaller room or near field setting. PM me if you want to chat more about it.
Good luck
Don
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Have built several Audio Note Kits and thought they were very good for the money. Customers were very happy.
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I built the Analog Ethos 2A3 Legendarium kit.
Perry is very helpful and the instructions are easy to follow.
Along with the instructions is a section explaining how it works.
Good parts, I didn’t feel the need to upgrade anything but the coupling caps.
You can download the instructions on his site.
I have to say though, a James Burgess 2A3 amp sounded a bit better for just a bit more money.
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Wow! Thank you @jetter and @atmasphere for the additional comments. The thread is really becoming a resource for others, as well as for me.
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Another source for pre-built all things Dynaco is: GetDynaco GETDYNACO. My understanding is that Kenny Russell is the builder. I have no connection to his products, but learned about them from the You Tube channel drD E Audio who uses a Kenny Russell ST-70 and Pas-3 preamp. The combination sounds stunning with his Klipsch speakers.
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Just my two cents, but having owned multiple ST70s and ST35s, I like the ST35 much better.
@hilde45 This is a comment worth exploring! The ST35 uses a triode Voltage amplifier while the ST70 uses a pentode. In addition, the smaller output transformers of the ST35 have wider bandwidth.
The input of the ST35 uses a 7247 tube, which is a 12AX7 section and a 12AU7 section in one envelope and is in current production. The 12AX7 section is the Voltage amplifier and the 12AU7 the driver. Since the 12AX7 is far more linear than a pentode (and has the most gain of any miniature triode) when feedback is applied, the tube distorts the feedback less (than a pentode) so the feedback is more able to do its job properly. This results in less higher ordered harmonic generation, so this is a much more interesting and relaxed amplifier to listen to and will fulfill your lower powered amplifier interest.
If one of these is properly built/refurbished it will give any SET a run for the money! It will play bass better, be more revealing (less distortion) and more neutral (less distortion).
And there’s a kit! Or there was. Their website says out of stock.
Go with the metal film option. Carbon resistors are really terrible.
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@hilde45 no problem...I was just babbling on about whatever was popping into my head. Your thread is a topic I've been thinking more about recently though. I always just assumed one needed speakers with just a high sensitivity like 98db plus to be able to use an oldskool sound SET amp. Trying my Fritz speakers with a 25watt tube hybrid amp made me think that I might be able to get away with a low watt SET amp.
I didn't have my Fritz when I listened to the GU50. I sold this guy an old pair of speakers & drove almost 2 hours to hear it & some other things he had. All of his speakers were older & mostly diy stuff. I just took his word for it that the couple speakers we listened to were 92-93db sensitivity when using the low powered amps. Everything sounded natural, big dynamic swings, clarity, just realistic. But I couldn't honestly say if my speakers would sound or could be handled the same way with low power.
So I debate that if I'm really going to invest in a true SET amp that I should first build or own some speakers that where designed to really thrive with that type of amplification. Though I would take a chance on a good budget priced kit. Maybe it's all in my head but I do think there is something different yet enjoyable to a tube rectified single ended triode preamp & amp.
I do think that going forward I will be more interested in diy & kit stuff..speakers included. I see now that I'm better off buying quality drivers using crossovers someone else designed & then implement quality parts. I've only done budget type preamp & tube amp builds but the outcome so far has exceeded my expectations. Low noise simple circuit tube gear sounds pretty good.
I guess it just depends on where one is in their audio journey. If one is still out there striving to find the best sound possible then a kit is probably the very last thing on your mind. If you've gone that route, spent that cash, seen what you really get every time you up your budget & want to explore something really different..try some DIY. Get your feet wet with a kit that has great build instructions. Buy a soldering iron. It's kind of a cool feeling when someone comments that the stereo sounds good & I can say, thank you..I built that. My wife thinks it's amazing. I have yet to tell her that I'm just following someone else's instructions.
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@mattw73 Thanks for your detailed response. Very generous of you! The GU50 looks interesting and I like those guys too
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I forgot to add. To answer your original question I don't have any experience with low powered kits. But I'm interested in them. The one 8watt unit I heard was definitely good enough on speakers over 92db..4 & 8 ohm
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I've had really good experience & sound with Mellow Tone Kits. Easy builds & their build instructions are posted on YouTube videos. They also give you all the specs & measurements for their equipment. Now I've only built 2 of their preamps..one in full kit form & the other just using the PCB boards they sell separately for a good price..though they did go up in price this year. Their boards are very versatile so you don't have to stick to the schematic they share.
I've listened to their GU50 8watt monoblocks recently & was very impressed.. especially for 8watts. I thought it sounded great. It's like $2k for the full kit though. I will add that I really like these guys at Mellow Tone/ValvesnMore. Super cool.
I've built the original ST-70 & find it ok.. good amp for the money. When you part them out all new & spend under $1k it's just a good deal for a tube amp. A buddy has the Tubes4Hifi 12au7 ST-70 & it seems solid & an upgrade to the original..just a little different. I built their most recent SP13 preamp which is good, I prefer the MTK's but they have limited inputs & no remote in comparison. I wanted to try the SP14 & their ST70 but my experience with them wasn't stellar so I've kinda put them on the back burner. Skunkie designs just did a build video for the Tubes4hifi amp that kinda got me interested again. I have some chassis & transformers from the ST70 laying around.
I really like the Van Alstine Ultimate PCB ST70. I use a sub so I cut/roll off the bass on the Alstine amp around 50hz or so. I've built a couple of them at this point. Finishing another one up right now with transformers from Heyboer & Pacific Transformer. The OPT's from Pacific are cheap on price so I'm very curious how they will sound when complete. The owner insists that I'll be happy..we will see. First time I've used non-Dynaco iron.
Pete Millet has some amp designs I'd like to try. He has some 50watt monoblocks that I just seen posted recently..though I'm not sure if he sells the PCB's for them on his eBay page. He has some amp projects on Wauwatosa Tube Factory WTFamps.com..i believe he still sells PCB's for some of those projects.
Edcor Amps/Kits has links to DIY designs.
Transcendent Sound sells full kits
Analog Ethos has very nice looking low powered kits.
Specimen Products. Chicago based has an expensive SET & a couple other amp kits
No personal dealings with those I listed..I just have them saved in my phone from when I was probably searching for kits/designs.
PCB's & schematic designs are not kits though obviously. Like others have mentioned there are not a lot of full kits out there for sale. I'm hoping that if anyone knows of any that exists to please mention them in this thread. Skunkie Designs has done a few low powered amp builds on her channel & posts all the parts needed. I wish I had the tools & skills to build the amp chassis/enclosure. If anyone knows of a place or person that will fabricate/cut out top plates for a fair price please mention it.
At the moment I'm using a solid state class D Hypex Nilai DIY amp. High power extremely easy build. No soldering involved. I've paired it with a non-kit Icon Audio LA4 mkiii tube preamp that I did the Signature upgrade on. In my scenario I find the Nilai kit to perform & sound fantastic for the price.
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Thanks for the Dynaco ST-70 et al. suggestions. Since I am already running a Quicksilver Mono 60 with KT-77 tubes, I'm not sure this amp is really going to sound all that different. If I stick with the vacation analogy, I want to emphasize that I want to go somewhere really different and not have a "staycation."
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If you like the idea of a kit (or they will build a complete amplifier), I agree with the Dynaco design option. The company Tubes4hifi has kits and fully assembled amplifiers based on some of the most popular Dynaco products: ST-35, ST-70 and ST-120.
The ST-70 uses EL34, 6L6, or KT-66 tubes power tubes, and puts out 30ish WPC depending on tubes. Uses 12AU7 driver tubes, and a 5U4G rectifier. Completed amplifiers are about $1,650 with all tubes.
I own their VTA ST-120 amplifier, that I've had for 5 years or so, and I can tube roll power tubes (6550, KT-88, KT-120, or KT-150), 12AU7 drivers and 5U4G rectifier. Power varies with power tube choices, but I think the 6550s are around 45 WPC and up to 80ish WPC with KT-150s. Completed amps with all tubes are $2,050 with 6550 or KT-88, and more with KT-120s and KT-150s
I also have Aric Audio and CODA amps, but will not get rid of the KT-120....not sure if it is what you are looking for, but they are really good amps
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Just my two cents, but having owned multiple ST70s and ST35s, I like the ST35 much better. OTOH, ST70 is much easier to find, and you can get a somewhat updated version from tubes4audio.com. Assembled or kit. They have a EL84 amp do, but it’s more closed related to the Audio Note than to the Dynamic.
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@hilde45
Another vote for getting a Dynaco ST-70. The kits a pretty easy and they sound very good from the get go and there are a bunch of mods out there so you can model the sound to your liking and all for way under your budget.
All the best.
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Thanks for the feedback and glad some like the vacation analogy.
I’ve heard from a reputable source that if a Dennis Had amp breaks he is near impossible to get in touch with and does not share schematics that this tech needed to fix it. Only after a long while did they finally hear back. This is not the kind of situation I want to find myself in.
@lafish thanks for the https://www.analogethos.com/diytubekit link
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The company that currently supplies Dynaco kits is often out of stock, but you could buy one of these: https://www.analogethos.com/pacific-63
A couple of modest but meaningful improvements to the original--a better bias circuit and less feedback--and they are handmade in the USA. I haven't heard one, but the original sounded great, as did Shannon Parks' diytube clone, one of which I used happily for 20 years, so I suspect these will too.
There will also be kits available soon if you want to go that route. And the wonderful EL84 tube is readily available in both new production and NOS from multiple sources.
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Why check for a Kit when you can find a low watt Dennis Had Inspire amp and preamplifier? They’ve been delivering the goods for audiophiles for 10 years, are extremely reliable, and sound fabulous. And, you can Tube roll to your hearts content
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@dekay
I don't care about true to the source/low lows/high highs
You must have Bose?
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Hi @mclinnguy ,
I never had Tamura output transformers. But I had James Audio.
Hashimoto gives more low level details then James Audio. It terms of tonal balance they sound similar.
But other tweaks that I did (cathodes, power supply capacitors, adding inter-stage transformer, changing driver tubes ) gave more difference than a simple change of output transformer.
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@alexberger
I use output and interstage Hashimoto transformers plus James Audio and Hashimoto power transformers and Hashimoto chokes,
How do those sound compared to Tamura F-5000 or 7000 series?
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Hilde:
Like the "vacation" take.
I don't care about true to the source/low lows/high highs - I just want to be entertained and fooled a bit - take a brief vacation while listening.
DeKay
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I built and now use my DIY amplifier not to save money but because I wanted to make an amplifier better than the market offers.
I use output and interstage Hashimoto transformers plus James Audio and Hashimoto power transformers and Hashimoto chokes,
and many other expensive parts. Only the parts for my amplifier cost me $7000.
My speakers are Alteс 604E. According to the passport, their sensitivity is 102 dB per 1 watt/1 m. In fact, their real sensitivity is 97-98 dB 1w/1m.
The vast majority of manufacturers overstate the sensitivity of speakers. These speakers do not have very deep bass.It is around 40Hz.
So it makes the life of the amplifier easie.
My listening room is L-shaped, with a 300 square foot main area, a smaller 120 square foot section, and 8-foot ceilings.
I don't have any issue with playing super load +105dB and I don't have any issue with speed and bass in different styles of music.
But it took me many years to improve the amplifier and to make it sound good with different kinds of music that people think don't suit SET amplifiers.
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My first time vacationing to a new part of the world is a survey trip to get a feel for the different kinds of experiences available. There second and third are long stays in the place and for the experience I then know I want.
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@hilde45 I appreciate your vacation analogy. I enjoy the experience from trying different approaches to this audio hobby. Could not manage it in the past, however now have kids through college and have house paid off.
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Many thanks to the additional posters and to the additional advice. Lots of brands to consider (Yamamoto, wow!) and varying advice about kit vs. used, etc.
One thing I notice at work that puts people on different sides of an issue has to do with framing -- is an amp purchase like "getting a car" or like "taking a vacation"?
We want to have a good outcome with both, but we want a "car" to do "the job." We want a "vacation" to not be unpleasant, but we often want "surprise," "novelty," and to gain "new perspectives."
Some people want audio to do a job. Some want from audio what they get from an interesting journey or vacation. After a vacation, that money is gone. You don’t resell a vacation. You come out the other side a slightly different person. That’s what I want from audio. That difference might come from trying something that is not "end game" but will teach me something, and add perspective.
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VK Music assembled preamp and p/p Elekit amp and SunValley phono preamp with all the upgrades. Very Happy and very Good Service! Highly Recommended…
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@hilde45 I will keep it simple, it should always be about the circuit design. Whether the circuit is executed on a board or hand wired should not matter. What matters is starting with a well thought out circuit design. It's helpful if the design is reliable and if needed, easily serviceable as well. So circuit layout and parts selection are important intangibles as well.
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@decooney Thanks for commenting. I’m not giving up my Pass XA25 or my QS Mono 60’s so I won’t be out on a limb with this next amp. I also know that these speakers have worked fine with SET amps in a room around my size, so it’s a question of finding the right amp for these speakers in my space with my other gear.
Sure. I do wonder if it could also be a functional and costlier challenge of finding a quality kit SET amp that's an improvement over what you already own right now - if overall performance is a consideration.
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Atmasphere your viewpoint in this discussion repetitively shuts down people learning and exploring. The whole discussion about bass, about distortion, and many of the other salient points you’ve raised, while one hand accurate, are on the other hand wholly irrelevant.
@yaluaka The way you write suggests to me that we have very similar goals. When I put on an LP I don't want to be thinking about the system. I want it out of the way so I get the full experience of the music and nothing else.
I'm really trying to save people from flushing perfectly good dollars down the loo rather than trying to shut down discussion. You'll note I suggested some simple solutions for getting the most out of any SET on this thread. I can outline them again if you like.
How relevant my comments are depends on what you play for music. I have recordings I recorded, so having been there when that happened, I know how they are supposed to sound. I enjoy electronic music and some of that has really deep bass. So its only irrelevant if you limit the kinds of music to which you listen. If you only play chamber music or light jazz or folk you'll probably be fine. But if you have an original LP pressing of Hendrix's Electric Ladyland, King Crimson's In the Wake of Posiden, ELP's first LP and so on you really won't get to experience what those records are all about with an SET because of the bass issue (if nothing else). If you can find a copy of RCA's Soria series recording of Verdi's Requiem its the same thing. They really didn't compress that LP and it can bring any SET system to its knees in very short order (side one, track 2 if interested).
BTW its not just SETs that have problems making bass properly. A lot of early solid state stuff does too. That issue with solid state went into the early 1970s until silicon transistors got good enough that complementary symmetry was finally possible. A lot of those amps are nowhere near as musical as a lot of SETs not as if that's any revelation...
Maybe there’s not as much bass etc, but for me the way to listen to music, is to listen to music not equipment. Listen, don’t analyze. I find tube triodes to give me immense musical pleasure despite their drawbacks.
FWIW I've been building triode power amplifiers for over 47 years. Its not triodes that have the drawbacks I described; triodes can go right down to DC if you want. Its the output transformers in SETs that have the limitations. David Berning is the only one I know of whoever figured a way around that and unsurprisingly his amps get very good comments.
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Hilde45:
My long term experience is with an Audion Silver Night DH/SET 300B amp and my currently owned/early DH/SET 2A3 Bottlehead kits.
I’ve also tried (@ home) an early "single ended" Decware amp (EL84/6922 I think), an Audion "single ended" EL34 based amp and a few vintage "single ended" EL84 based amps (Magnavox and one "stamped" RCA that may have been of Japanese manufacture).
If you want to try single ended (not DH/SET) cheap look into the current model SE Coincident EL34 based integrated amp.
Good reviews, less expensive tubes (even for really good ones) and there’s a used one for sale a 30 minute drive from Denver (you know the place).
I’m not familiar with contemporary Bottlehead (my amps are 20+ years old), but the reviews are good.
I’ve looked into Elekit and would go with the better Lundahl (sp?) OT upgrade, but I’m not certain if they have PT’s for 115AC as most listed are for 100 (the vendor in Canada could answer this).
Anyway, try it is my rec as I’ve enjoyed my meager DH/SET setup (no highs/tweeters - no lows/woofers) for the past 20+ years.
PS:
On the really cheap (just single ended/not DH/SET) Musical Paradise has a little integrated SE amp for $500, or so.
I would buy it from the local vendor (think he’s in Canada).
DeKay
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@hilde45
Getting to this party late, but my experience over the last year is exactly what you are considering doing.
I bought an Elekit 300B amp already built (the 8600S with Lundahl transformers and Mundorf Supreme coupling capacitors) to try on a lark. At that point I had Wilson Sabrina speakers driven by a Modwright KWA 150SE amp (150 watts into 8 ohms). Tried the Elekit amp with the Sabrinas, knowing this was a mismatch, and was blown away by the sound.
Thus the quest continued. At this point I now have two SET systems. One with Spatial Audio X3 speakers (97 dB sensitivity) driven by an Aric Audio 300B SET amp, and one with Charney Audio Maestro speakers with Voxativ AC-2.6 full range drivers (98 dB sensitivity) driven by an Air Tight 300B SET amp.
It is important to note, as Ralph alluded to above, that both systems have auxiliary subwoofers. The Spatial X5's have 12" bass drivers with separate on-board Class D amplification, and the Charney Maestros are augmented with two SVS subwoofers crossed over at 100 dB.
But, both systems sound better than any of the many other systems I have put together. Not just in my opinion, but in the opinion of friends who listened to both the current SET systems and my previous higher powered systems. And, no disrespect to Ralph, both systems measure better in my rooms than my previous systems, based on measurements using REW software.
Lastly, although I started with a kit amplifier (which I still have), to my ears both the Aric Audio and Air Tight amplifiers are superior. Of course, the Aric and Air Tight amps were more than twice the price even when purchased used.
So, my advice is go forward! For two reasons: as stated above, because that is what this hobby is all about, but also because you may end up with the best sounding system you have yet to find.
Good luck!
GAR
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That is why I said that the most successful SET installations (and some of the most avid SET lovers I know) have some means to keep bass out of the SET. When you do that the mids and highs get a lot better! Its not subtle.
I could easily do this as I already have a Marchand XM44. Hmmm...
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Atmasphere your viewpoint in this discussion repetitively shuts down people learning and exploring. The whole discussion about bass, about distortion, and many of the other salient points you’ve raised, while one hand accurate, are on the other hand wholly irrelevant. Distortion for instance is a tonal color. It is not a bugaboo though I’m sure many audiophiles think it is. Maybe there’s not as much bass etc, but for me the way to listen to music, is to listen to music not equipment. Listen, don’t analyze. I find tube triodes to give me immense musical pleasure despite their drawbacks. I’ve learned long ago that a non audiophile approach to musical listening, not comparing things, not worrying about specs, not thinking about perfection but instead listening to music is for me how I get the most pleasure out of this hobby.
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How many maximal dB do we need for classical, rock, jazz music?
It looks like the distortions from 50Watt heat on the speaker's voice coil and crossover parts should be much more horrible then 10% SET distortion on maximal power distortions.
@alexberger The point isn't to use all that power! In the best installations, the amplifier should be loafing. No matter what kind of amp you have, the harder you make it work for a living the more distortion it will make. IOW the point is to make clean power at normal listening levels. When its clean, it won't sound 'loud'.
I don’t agree with them, for one very important reason, this is a hobby, it’s so much fun to explore, it’s not have people tell you you won’t like something when in fact, if your like me or many others, you actually will.
@yaluaka The stuff I said about SETs having troubles with bass (there are other problems too but I'm focusing on just this one for this post) is very real. I certainly agree that the exploration can be quite fun (I've built a number of SETs since the early 1990s and did it solely for that reason). But the engineering issue about bass has been known for many decades (google 'elliptical load line' and you'll see what I'm talking about). That is why I said that the most successful SET installations (and some of the most avid SET lovers I know) have some means to keep bass out of the SET. When you do that the mids and highs get a lot better! Its not subtle.
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Sorry, long TLDR: try it 
Sounds like what I just went through. I also had an "itch" I had to scratch, I picked up some 98db speakers, which were designed/voiced with a 300b amp (also built by the speaker manufacturer). I am sure if I posted as you did looking for suggestions I would have received several "don’t try a 45 tube amp, no where near enough power" so I didn’t post- I just went ahead and did it based on plenty of other reviews/anecdotes that stated that the 45 tube was the best of the bunch, and I’m glad I did it! It is off golf season and I am retired, so I generally surf the internet researching what many have done/known/experienced and posted for about 50 hours a week.
First I appreciate very much @atmasphere posting on here, and filling the threads with his vast knowledge. He of course has had plenty of negative posts I am sure over the years, more than enough for most manufacturer’s to bow out of the forums and vow to never return. (Reminds me that it was "refreshing" to read what Charles Hansen had to say years ago (RIP)). And the internet seems to be getting more negative by the day- more and more "expert" opinions and less and less facts; not just audio forums but in general. Absolutely Ralph has forgotten more about amplifiers than I will ever know, and some of what he wrote above is over my head, but it is nice to have those who do this audiophile thing for a living post their knowledge so that some of us can digest it.
Having said that my latest experience contradicts some of what he has said. But first, as some have referenced above, how loud do you listen? The World Health Organization suggests at 95db one should only listen to music for just over 1 hour per week. 90 db and you are good for 4 hours per week. I don’t know about you but I want to listen for much longer than that, and more importantly I want to retain what hearing I have left, so I can enjoy this hobby more many more years. (Interesting in that I have noticed a few ads on Audiomart in the past few months where someone is claiming their reason to sell is due to hearing loss)
Even at 80db SPL WHO suggests 40 hours per week. It is unclear if that is total, or just "work SPL". If someone mows their lawn twice a week without hearing protection, uses their Vitamix daily, watches a movie on their home theatre with peaks at 95db etc. well now perhaps you can listen for 30 hours a week? I have been listening to my hifi for 12 hours a day. Right now I am playing Tsuyoshi Yamamoto at 50db. At night I might have peaks of 80db but that is as high as I will take it.
So for me, why bother paying attention to a spec of "50 watts required for 95db" when I will never get there?
Using those same numbers that is the same power of:
25 watts for 92db, 12.5w for 89db, 6.3w for 86db, and 3.2w for 83db.
Knowing this, and I also have a smaller room for this experiment, I took a plunge on a Yamamoto A-08s 45 tube amp (no relation to Tsuyoshi ), and it surprised me how loud it goes! My 98 db@1w speakers are a nice flat impedance curve (I am told) which is easier to drive, yet they are 4ohms I believe I am getting not 2 watts per side but more like 1.7 wpc? And it sounds glorious! At this point I don’t see myself ever selling this amp. I have a 300b on the way (shipped today!) as well so I will rotate amps around for a "saveur du jour" as if I use one amp for half the time the tubes will last twice as long, please correct me if that math is wrong. And the bass? Or a lack of it as some suggest one will get from a little flea amp?* Please, travel to my house and tell me there is lack of quality bass here: There is not- it is perfect- deep, rich, taut but not too tight, tuned and awash with texture, gradations and nuances -absolutely perfect -as long as the recording was of sufficient quality. And in the 3 weeks I have owned this little amp I have yet to max it out, so at 75db listening average I am probably using less than 1 watt per channel- amazing!
Interestingly, even some older pop and rock recordings surprise me with the quality and details of bass guitars and drums that I have never heard before. Looks like some of the reviews of this amp from over a decade ago were accurate: It is one hell of a little amp. I don’t know if I just lucky with a good matching with my speakers and others don’t get the same result, I don’t have that knowledge. If there are "weaknesses with a SET" they have not been apparent to me yet.
On top of my excitement on the sound quality it is gorgeous to look at, and the point to point wiring is so precise it demonstrates the amount of care and passion Mr. Yamamoto puts into his products. He manufactures virtually every part of this amp by hand. Beautiful.
And if you are wondering what I was listening to before the Yamamoto it was a Coda 15.5. Bass may not as powerful as some, but surely not lacking. I am still keeping it as it will be the high channel amp for my Magnepans.
*One other point worth emphasizing, and I see you have tube amps already so you probably are aware, but you and I both did it here in this thread: Stating all 45 tube amps, or 300b amps are in the same class is incorrect. You might have read the same claims that I have: "300b tube amps have great mids but wooly and have no bass", or have rolled off frequency response, but what they aren’t telling you is they have or have listened to the bottom end quality of those designs. As @larryi stated above the quality of the output transformer will have a huge impact on the quality of the bottom end, and I assume other frequencies as well.
Funny that if someone posted that they don’t like transistor amps because they have a brittle and shrill top end everyone would jump on that poster and ask which one specifically he was referring to- but in a tube thread only very few state the same response, and most assume "a 300b tube amp is a 300b tube amp".
So there is my flea-tube amp journey so far. Not much kit-info for you but interestingly the Yamamoto was available as a kit. Personally I would not buy an amp from someone who learned how to solder on a tube amp kit. The money you would save buying it you would loose on resale. As your room is not too much larger than mine and if your required sound pressure level is reasonable I say give it a go! Only one way to find out!
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I’d recommend a custom built tube amp from Tube Audio Labs in Iowa. I have a 300b from them and it fits your budget.
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I was in your shoes 2 years ago. I was looking at going with a McIntosh Hybrid Integrated amp. I went to Richmond to listen to it and it really didn’t do it for me. They had a pair of Mc275’s that we hooked up and it was more my taste, but brought in the need for a pre-amp. Trying to get the best bang for the buck as we all are doing, I did my research and ended up with building my own mono blocks from Tubes 4 Hifi. I was looking for higher power than you are, I’m running a pair of their M125’s (roughly 120watts each- with KT120’s). Also built the SP-14 from them for my pre-amp. Had a couple of headaches due to the transformers not being wired properly out of the factory, but once we solved that issue, smooth sailing, absolutely love this setup. Getting ready to build a phono stage and get me a Scout II.
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The only tube amp I would consider after having almost every brand of small tube amps is from Cary Audio the SLI-80HS intergrated….
I would have my solid state handy when you have tube problems or get tired of the sound when your favorite song comes on with killer bass the small tube amp can not keep up with..
The Sit-4 doesn’t sound like the Sit-3…
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Many different points of view. I will add a few of my own for the OP.
--a kit would not typically be a big factor in my decision making. Why? Simple. The markup of amps from Elekit, Analogue Ethos, AK kits from kit to pre-built is actually small and insignificant (a few hundred dollars) and if you factor in your time I do not think you are saving much. Now, if you are into many upgrades/mods, if you love the satisfaction/nostalgia of kit building--go for it!
--one poster states that low powered SET amps, even with efficient speakers, are a no go. He knows more about tube amps than I ever will. But I trust my ears. In my secondary system, I have a 4wpc SET driving Omega speakers. Especially since I added a small pair of REL subs, I am shocked at how much of my music collection sounds great on this system. Also note, I run the Omegas full range with no crossover and these are in a fairly large room. Does it do everything my high powered primary system does? Of course not. But 90% of my music sounds so good on this system I could be happy with this for the rest of my life. In fact, some of my CD’s sound better on this system than my main system.
--speaker/amp matching is critical with SET amps. In this setting, full range drivers are a natural choice IMO.
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The most underestimated and sometimes overlooked challenge for me with trying of SET amps was the speaker matching. Getting that spot-on is the key imo. And, I was not willing to focus on one-trick-pony speakers where some do well at this part. If you watch buyers/sellers over the last few decades, this stuff comes and goes, people try it and move on too. Everyone looking for sonic bliss :)
My local dealer sells mostly AudioNote, lots of SET amps and speakers all designed and made by AudioNote to work with specific amps too. I go in and listen periodically to 4-5 different systems there. It’s very specific I find with those systems. Some times you love the sound, other times you don’t, it can vary for some individuals even down to the mood they are in that day, lol.
Some times my local dealer will pair up other speaker brands with some of the 10w amps both push pull and SET. It’s an art form to get it right and years later I can see pros/cons of both SET and non-SET, or Parallel Single Ended amps vs. Push Pull amps.
The designer of my current amps does not build SET any more, and has nudged me a few times to say my current Ultralinear mono tube amps sound better and work better in his opinion for my 93db speakers. So, I defer to the Subject Matter Experts about SET amps now because it’s quite costly to get it right and some of don’t have room for extra speakers just sitting around to swap in/out all the time.
WHEN it’s right, some times a great SET amp and speaker pairing can be absolutely fantastic and intoxicating to listen to if the music is right for it imo.
Seems to me buying recommended amps and speakers that are known to pair very well together is they way to save a lot of time/money/headaches. Best of Luck on the Trial and Error parts it takes some willingness, readiness to risk, and patience. If you get it right it can be bliss too as others will share and not stand down on the topic LOL.
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Some excellent comments so far / should give you lots to think about.
a couple to add:
Vkmusic in Vancouver sells Elekit and will assemble them for a reasonable fee
i tried a 2A3 set with my 95db Omegas and wasn’t impressed- lacked drive and dynamics and to me, the mids weren’t significantly better than my modified ST35 in my small 12x14’ room
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I have a full Bottllehead system, consisting of a BeePre 2 preamp, a Kaiju 8W power amp, a Mainline headphone amp, and an Eros 2 phono preamp. The BeePre and Kaiju use 300B tubes. I am running Bottlehead Jager speakers, which are 94 dB, and are voiced to work well with low-power SET setups. This is my main system, and I love how it sounds. I haven't done much in the way of modifying my kits from OEM, but lots of people upgrade their Bottlehead gear with boutique components. My secondary system consists of a Rega Elex Mk4, 72W integrated amp with Dynaudio Contour 20 speakers and a subwoofer. I find that I like the Bottlehead system at least as much as my SS system. It won't totally rock a large room at only 8W, but in my smaller space the Bottlehead SET system is very sweet and engaging.
Bottlehead kits come with awesome instructions, and their excellent forum provides the extra help one sometimes needs when assembling the kits. If you can solder and are at least a bit mechanically inclined, Bottlehead kits are a lot of fun to put together. I highly recommend them.
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looking at bottlehead, yes
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Have you checked out the offerings by bottlehead?
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@armstrod -- thanks for your advice. Good to try before sinking in that time and money!
@dougthebiker -- Elekit! Thanks!
@paradisecom -- thanks for the ank link
@yaluaka -- thanks for the link to the other thread. I’d not seen it. I had a different way of framing the question and appreciate the feedback here and the dialogue with others, including you.
@silverfoxvtx1800 I have heard these speakers with the Pass XA25 and the Sit-3. I agree they sound lovely and though there are differences, the Pass sounds similar to my ears. I’m curious to see if these lower-powered tube amps sound, well, different. It sounds like you are at the stage where you want to just be done with trying gear and listen to one more song! That’s cool, but I’m still curious about the variety of sounds which my speakers can produce with new dance partners. I’m not ready to "set it and forget it."
@earthbound -- Thanks for the advice. I listen to what you listen to, mainly. This amp will be an addition to other amps that can fulfill the needs of Metallica -- or Mahler, Wagner. I’m a critical listener, not moving around the room. So, if this amp (whoever she is) comes into my life, I will be using it for the kind of music which suits the design.
@clio09 Thanks for your reply. You said to listen to atmasphere, and he said "It won’t matter if the amp is handwired or circuit board as far as sound is concerned." You then pointed out, "The whole point to point vs circuit board argument has many intangibles that need to be considered. It’s not black and white." What "intangible" factor are you referring to?
@decooney Thanks for commenting. I’m not giving up my Pass XA25 or my QS Mono 60’s so I won’t be out on a limb with this next amp. I also know that these speakers have worked fine with SET amps in a room around my size, so it’s a question of finding the right amp for these speakers in my space with my other gear.
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@hilde45
I know I sound like a broken record, I have had a lot of tube amps with my Klipsch Forte IVs and now my go to speakers are the Volti Razz, and never was satisfied until I took the leap and spent 5k on the First Watt Sit-4. With only 10 watts of class A it rocks my world. The music has a soul now and when my beautiful patience wife calls me for dinner I am always late wanting to play one more song. Forget about all those tubes, get it out of your mind…find one…I buy all my Pass and First watt from Jon at Refined Audio a awesome guy…call him…everything in the music is so sweet now with out worrying about a tube frying out…I am sure Jon will give you a audition time 30 days…
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A similar thread happened here before. (And I’m sure will again). Atmosphere makes amps he is quite knowledgeable. But and it’s big but, he’s already gone through many iterations of hifi and made he’s conclusions. I don’t agree with them, for one very important reason, this is a hobby, it’s so much fun to explore, it’s not have people tell you you won’t like something when in fact, if your like me or many others, you actually will. I think this is how to quote the prior thread. Maybe just buy used amps and see how they sound and sell them on if not to your liking. prior thread - https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/300b-or-2a3-set-class-a-for-heretic-model-a
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I think it’s important to realize everyone has different hearing ability and ways they enjoy their music. Do you sit in a chair that’s perfectly positioned and analyze each aspect of the music and wonder if it could be improved if you just…..Are you usually doing things and walking around so need bigger sound?
‘I had a Rotel amp and pre, B&W speakers and Velodyne sub for 23 years. That was what I was used to. Listen to classic rock mostly and some jazz. When time came to replace my system, my buddy convinced me to try tubes. Started with a Synthesis amp, el34 and 45 watts or so and Zu Soul Supreme speakers. Was definitely a rock and roll set up and was plenty loud. Set up gave me ear fatigue to the point of headaches. Moved on to an Aric Audio 300b pset amp, 22 watts and Audio Note speakers. Best sound I’ve ever had by far. It’s wonderful. Some of the criticisms mentioned above can correct in some cases. For example, my Metallica does lack a bit of punch. The speakers go low but perhaps you don’t feel it as much. Remember this is coming from a guy who had a sub for 23 years. Is it a slight trade off? Perhaps. I feel the quality sound is worth it. Also, I don’t listen to the same music anymore. I’m much more into jazz, Father John Misty/Bon Iver/nora Jones type music now, which is what set amps excel at in my opinion.
‘So I think you need to figure out what it is you want to listen to and choose wisely. I’d say as a general guide set is great for 90db and lower for most music, maybe not heavy base r&b. Push pull with more watts can pretty much get loud and rock but perhaps doesn’t have the characteristics that make a set amp so enjoyable. Solid state is solid state. Has its advantages but maybe not as natural sounding.
‘Anyway, good luck and choose wisely.
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