I concur with this post ... I am happy with my speakers system ( low cost but not low fi) and with my TOP headphone akg K340 for the same reason ...
I have both headphones and speakers setups and each gives me different musical enjoyment. Really good headphone setup delivers very intimate, involving, and incisive listening. My tube preamp LTA Microzotl has an excellent headphone out, but I prefer using a dedicated headphone tube amp like McIntosh mha200. Open back headphones like Hifiman Susvara sounds out of head or speaker like presentation with a good headphone amp. It is f**king ridiculous how good it can sound, but you need a very best amp to drive susvara. I sold mine because I could not power it with my amp. I got Abyss Diana Phi which is not hard to drive, but it also has some what open speaker like presentation. I like it’s tunning and low frequency handling. When it rumbles it’s super fun in the ears. You mentioned focal. I listened to buch of them including clear mg. I found it had a bit bright signature which was fatiguing to listen. However, I think Stellia is a fantastic cans. Very elegant and sophisticated sounds, Imo. I might get nice used one in the future.
|
I have both headphones and speakers setups and each gives me different musical enjoyment. Really good headphone setup delivers very intimate, involving, and incisive listening. My tube preamp LTA Microzotl has an excellent headphone out, but I prefer using a dedicated headphone tube amp like McIntosh mha200. Open back headphones like Hifiman Susvara sounds out of head or speaker like presentation with a good headphone amp. It is f**king ridiculous how good it can sound, but you need a very best amp to drive susvara. I sold mine because I could not power it with my amp. I got Abyss Diana Phi which is not hard to drive, but it also has some what open speaker like presentation. I like it’s tunning and low frequency handling. When it rumbles it’s super fun in the ears. You mentioned focal. I listened to buch of them including clear mg. I found it had a bit bright signature which was fatiguing to listen. However, I think Stellia is a fantastic cans. Very elegant and sophisticated sounds, Imo. I might get nice used one in the future.
I am surprised that you are thinking about ditching JA perspectives. Those are fine speakers and I am thinking about getting the graphene version. JA speakers sound best with a good tube amp or class a ss amp, Imo. You have a good streamer, but I think you can use a more musical dac, I use holo may KTE DAC. Fantastic r2r dac which sounds very smooth, quite, and detailed. I can listen to it for hours.
I cannot listen to my systems without my Puritan psm156 power conditioner and various power cables with them. Stupid money but worth it for the top result.
|
I misspoke re cables. Amp, pre amp use Zafvino. Anyway.
|
@bander Thanks for the graphene upgrade warning. I needed to hear that so i could cross that option off my list.
|
I too own the Perspectives and had them upgraded. Don't do it. Needless to say I had expected a significant improvement in SQ.Not even close. It wouldn't have been worth it at half the price, notto mention shipping costs. I am big on cables, all of them, not the least of, power cables. Ignore the power cable naysayers.Over the years I have upgraded all cables and at varying price points.I have never not been happy with the results.There are too many to mention and I haven’t heard as many as a lot of other memembers. I now have a full loom of the highest end Townshend cables. These are my forever cables. So many great products out there.Cerious Technologies was a favorite. Audition, return policies abound. Silversmith. Cables, cables, cables. I also recommend 'tweaks' from VeraFi audio. Great results at relatively inexpensive prices.
|
@pindac Thank you for the links. Looks like there are some in the area. The scent ran cold in 2016, so I’ll start a new one.
|
|
@scthom I’ve thought about going the graphene upgrade route, but haven’t pursued it yet for 2 reasons. I’m not sure the my earlier versions are the root cause/weak link from achieving the sound I’m looking for described in my OP. Also, it doesn’t address my sense that id really like to simplify my system and not add tweaks.
I hope this makes sense and i truly appreciate everyone’s thoughts/suggestions/advice. Thats the reason i’m willing to ask total strangers for help with something that is personal and a source of joy for me.
|
@pindac Thank you for that thoughtful advice. Frustratingly, I live in a city that has the 2nd highest post graduate degreed percent of population in the US with a huge technology business base. In my 41 years living here, ive only found 1 other audiophile and he owned a hi-end audio store here that only stayed in business for ~10 years and went out of business 20 years ago. Surely they are here somewhere. I wonder if i posted a “Are you an audiophile in Huntsville AL?” here on Audiogon, i might find a few? I’ll try that.
Nearest hifi shops are 2 hrs (Nashville0 and 3 hrs (Atlanta) away. I’ve taken many trips to a shop in Nashville and purchased equipment but their selection is limited and they haven’t gotten into digital yet.
@2psyop I’ve actually started having my hearing test each year now and was told again this year that im still not in the range needing aid. That said, i failed to mention in my OP, that I do “suffer” from continuous high frequency tinnitus which is a pain in the a__ whenever i‘m conscious of it. I’m sure that affects my “music hearing fidelity” in some way.
i really think i want to simplify my system in preparation for retirement. Eliminate tube power so go with a hybrid or solid state 1 box integrated with a great dac and streamer, that would be perfect! Next to perfect would be an integrated plus a great Roon compatible one box dac/streamer. Any suggestions would be most welcome.
|
Why don’t you start by having your speakers upgraded to the graphene model? Take some time with the upgraded speakers and then decide if you need any more changes.
|
ezstreams
Excellent advice and pointers as above. Good to read that your CD Player is the center piece of your system. Consider a Cabling or Tube upgrade. Keep me posted on your Journey.
Happy Listening!
|
Get a hearing test first. Then if your hearing is impaired, as you had suggested, get the best heard aids you can afford. Even Costco has great deals. I have Resound brand and it’s the best investment I have made in my audio system and to a very large extent... my day to day life. There are audiophiles here who don’t agree, but why does anyone get glasses when one could just get by with poor eyesight??? Does not make sense. You might be surprised, your system might sound better than you thought. Just my two cents...
|
@ezstreams I have an alternative option for you, it is fully in keeping with what you have made known in the OP.
You are approaching a period of your life where you have additional time to spend experiencing your HiFi Set Up.
You also have a Budget to swap out some of the ancillaries used in your System and create a sound that is seemingly more to your satisfaction.
With the above two points in mind, there are Pro's and Con's, I will make my thoughts known on these.
Pro's
1, Time available is now your friend, put a request out to meet up with local to yourself audio enthusiasts, the lessons that can be learned from experiencing other systems and friendships that can form are extremely valuable.
2, In my own HiFi Group (made up mainly of a group of 10 retired and semi-retired members, where a monthly meet is usually the minimum) there are members systems that have evolved as a result of attending these meet ups. Where their choices have been structured around the good impressions made from listening to other members systems and having discovered alternative ancillaries worthy of consideration. Your ideal ancillary could prove to be a item available as a used purchase and save outlaying extra $0000's.
3, Creating a Shortlist and visiting commercial suppliers with a demonstration facility to enable a ancillary of interest to be experienced is another option to be used with the additional time available.
Con's
1, Buying with only a visual of a product as the introduction is a fast route to a purchase that does not content the end user.
2, Buying from recommendation only is no different from buying with a visual of a product.
3, Not Selecting Products for a further investigation, using the above methods and others for the purpose of producing a Shortlist is the way that is the least sure footed, and can easily be a wasteful use of ones hard earned.
4, Any purchases being made do inquire about the aftersales support, Warranty Periods, etc. In the US there are regions that have very little requirement to support such aftersales services.
|
@ezstreams - your Morrow cables are actually quite good from a design perspective, but they are still using OFC, which is little dated compared to OCC copper, but you should be able to sell them quite easily because they have a good reputation for quality/effectiveness.
I just took a look at Audio Envy products and it seems they have some very nice products and I think their speaker cables would make a noticeable improvement compared to the Morrow cables.
There are of course many other fine cables out there, but you do have to know a bit more about cable materials/insulation/geometries in order to discern good from bad designs.
I would start by upgrading your speaker cables and then introduce interconncts and finally power cables because "we humans" tend to attribute an improvements to the last "component" (I view cables as a component) introduced into a system. Having good speaker cables allows you to hear just how much improvement was achieved by introducing other cables like interconnects and power cables.
Power cables would be the last thing I would upgrade because the improvements tend to be more subtle and less noticeable, especially when applied to main power amps. This is because the power supplies tend to be designed to match the power requirements, whereas source components tend to have a less "robust" power supply, so attaching a good power cable would make a noticeable improvement
Hope that helps - Steve
|
I've found that improving the source is the best method to enhance detail:
-Consider an Uptone EtherREGEN AND an Uptone JS2 LPS. Utilize the JS2 dual power outputs to feed both your REGEN and Nucleus. The Nucleus is a good server and benefits from a better power supply.
-At the risk of being heavily criticized, try connecting your streamer to DAC with USB. My system produces more detail using USB over SPDIF. This relies on a superior DAC over streamer.
-Try using Roon to upsample Tidal output to higher PCM bitrate or even DSD.
As a sidenote, I strongly suggest plugging your amp directly into the wall. I’ve found this produces better results over even my Niagara 7000’s high output bank.
|
@williewonka Thanks so much for the advice Steve. I can see by the links you provided and the link to your system page that you know of what you speak.
|
@ezstreams - cable science has advanced considerably in the last few years and it is very difficult without knowing the science, to determine which cables may be affective.
You are probably due for an upgrade, so it might be good to familiarize yourself with the design approach of the brands mentioned.
For a more budget oriented approach take a look at Audio Envy cables, they may be a very good to start to your quest
Regards, Steve
|
@williewonka Well Steve, I’m embarrassed to say that I bought my current speaker cables from Morrow several years ago. I think they are the SP5 Speaker Cable Pair - 576 SSI Wires.
|
@ezstreams - You said your Power and Interconncet cables are "mid Level"
What are you speaker cables?
My own system has been elevated to amazing levels of details with the introduction of highly detailed cables that consist of...
- Advanced cable geometry
- this improves clarity and lowers the noise floor of the system
- OCC solid copper and OCC solid silver (for IC’s only) wires
- this improved details and dynamics pf the sistem
- Advanced insulation materials and application techniques
- this reduced noise introduced bat lesser insulations and improves the the clarity of the system
For more details on cables take a look at
The cables are the arteries of the system, if they are not performing to the highest levels then the whole system is not sounding as good as it could.
I have improved the sound of systems ranging from a $300 mini system to systems over $70k, just by introducing excellent cables
If you are into DIY take a look at my cables...
Otherwise take a look a Zavfino cables or Hijiri cables
- both have excelllent threads in this forum where you can read the opinions of others
Hope you find your way - Steve
|
Do you have one you would recommend for my current system and sound goals?
I am deeply ashamed (not really) admit that the best one I have heard to date was a Neardost from AliExpress. I had used two or three other cables before that, but when I put this one in the mix, the clouds parted and the sun shined. I understand if you don't want to go that route, but if so I can give you specifics. Alternatively I was recently given a recommendation to try the Acoustic Zen MC2, there are some good deals on the used market for this cable.
I got into jazz about 15 years ago, all my records were bought ~ 10 to 15 years before that so all my jazz physical media is on CD.
I started listening to jazz seriously about five years ago and have been improving my system to get more of the same instrumental information that you are seeking, and have been fairly successful. Maybe try something acoustic on vinyl to see if it has more of the feel you are looking for. Sorry to belabor the point, but your situation is somewhat confounding given the quality of your equipment. It reminds me of the sound of my early, jitter-rich digital system compared to where it is now. So, trying to eliminate the digital entirely and see if you hear more of the instrumental details you are looking for in the analog world, which would narrow the focus of where the problems live.
|
A DAC with a graphic EQ? Who knew? The Loki Max is a deluxe EQ unlike anything else out there (in the analog world anyway).
|
@ezstreams that's the hard part to suggest, I think, since there are so many possible combinations of gear, tubes, peoples listening perceptions, etc.
For me, I just kept a notebook and marked down how each combination sounded so I could refer back to it. This is especially handy when swapping out speakers to help get the right combination.
You could just try ordering some different sets to see what works. Another thing I ran into was that just because a tube is more expensive, doesn't make it a better performer in a given application. Sometimes, a cheap tube can sound great, just as an expensive tube.
|
@wolf_garcia I’ve read good reviews and your positive comments regarding use of the Loki to sculpt the sound to taste is an interesting idea. My RME DAC has a graphic equalizer feature that I’ve not yet used or explored. I’ve been reticent to try it, but I should check it out before changing out any hardware.
@zlone I got into jazz about 15 years ago, all my records were bought ~ 10 to 15 years before that so all my jazz physical media is on CD. If my no cost experiment of engaging the equalizer in my DAC doesn’t provide the sound i’m searching for then I’ll try a higher quality SPDIF cable. Do you have one you would recommend for my current system and sound goals?
|
I am going to throw this out there, it seems like your system is solid for what you are using it for. Have you thought about replacing your current speakers and opting for a NOS set of tubes in your Integrated and dac? I have been back and forth with SET systems and regular push/pull tube systems and I loved the texture I was getting with my Klipsch Forte IV’s with my 45,2a3 & 300b amps but I ended up missing that extra headroom from higher powered amplifiers. I used a Audiomat 30w integrated with my Forte IV’s and loved the extra oomph and used that as a place keeper until my what I call my Super Quad ESL 57’s were being created by Kent at Electrostatic Solutions in KC(Robin Wyatt YouTube video for reference). I only mention the Quads as my other pair of ESL 57’s sound exceptional with the Audiomat EL34 tube amp. I used my Audiomat with Holland metal based EL34’s and 62’ Mullard 12ax7’s and it was everything you are looking for in sound. I am done with my search with the exception of a DAC as I miss my Wavelength Cosecant N2 dac.
My current setup:
Herron Audio 360 ESP Reference
McIntosh MC75 original issue with GEC KT88 NOS and Telefunken driver tubes.
432EVO Aeon Streamer/Roon Core
Rockna Wavelight Dac
Herron VTSP-2a phono preamp
STS Thorens TD-124 with Jelco 850L and Ortofon TA-110 Tonearms
Koestsu Urishi Black and Haniwa HCTR-01 Mki MC cartridges
Solid tech rack and Still Points ESS rack
cables are Western Electric speaker wire and Herron Audio Interconnects
Good Luck!!!
|
SPDIF cable is not high or mid end based on recommendation of the customer technical support person i purchased from. He said it was a waste of money to spend more there.
It sounds like you have done your homework on the DAC and it is to your liking. I will disagree with your technical support person regarding the digital cable. While not a solution to all of your problems, I highly recommend you do some research and try going up the chain a bit there. My system improved when I upgraded this cable.
One follow up question, when you listen to jazz on your vinyl setup, do you hear more of the sound you are looking for?
|
Do the tube maintenance and consider a Loki Max EQ as it can pull some life out of older recordings...or any recordings you think need it. Like you I'm a jazz freak, and the Max can bring cymbals up in a mix, balance bass and mids, restore hair growth, and generally make you a better person.
|
@mahler123 ....My sympathies to you about the funk of flunk....
But, you're in good and still growing company, although some will be or are loathe to testify they've been robbed....
Age doth have some privileges', but this ain't one of them.😒
The 'bright side' of this 'lp' is the excuse to wear a set of semi-custom earpieces entirely throughout your day playing whatever soundtrack you wish to have for your daily 'movie'....(channeling Dire Straits' 'Roller Girl'....but please, don't dress for that role... many just will not understand...)
...although, personally, the occasional 'break move' with a shopping cart in the F. Astaire mode can be fun...;)
|
@paradisecom thank you, but i have been experimenting for several years and feel like its growing time to fish or cut bait.
The suggestions in this thread have convinced me that going to a dedicated headphone listening system is not the.path to suit me.
what specific tubes do you you recommend that would provide the organic accuracy I’m desparately searching for?
|
I would first try some tube rolling in the integrated. You can completely change the sound of an amplifier by experimenting with different tube combinations.
|
@zlone Thank you for those recommended checks:
- The only other DACs i’ve had in my system were an Oppo Sonica DAC (many years ago) and more recently the onboard DAC in the Lumin D2 (which eventually led to my search for a better/separate DAC leading me to the well reviewed and “adjustable” RME i have currently.
- The Primaluna CD player sounds good using its internal DAC but better to my 67 year old/cant hear above ~ 10KHz ears using the RME.
- internet is 100% hardwired from street through entire system. No optical isolation though.
- SPDIF cable is not high or mid end based on recommendation of the customer technical support person i purchased from. He said it was a waste of money to spend more there.
@ghdprentice i was surprised about the real-life-apparent efficiency of the Perspectives. I never had to move the 70 wpch Primaluna volume knob above 9;00 to meet my volume needs (not loud, but really at a comfortable listening level) leaving tons of amp headroom.
|
@ezstreams I have been working too full-time jobs in 2023 and I am working very late hours while the family sleeps. The SR1a and CA1a are life savers for me and have made me money. I cannot imagine working so much without the RAALs.
The SR1a can be used for long hours without any discomfort. Only issue with them is that you cannot lay in bed with them on. That is the reason I also got the CA-1a phone.
I have been contacted by people that have sold systems at the level and cost of Magico to go just with the SR1a. The quality of the sound from the RAAL ribbons is incredible and I think hard for other headphones to touch, especially if you come from a 2-channel background. Main complaint I hear from headphone people on the SR1a is that it does not sound like headphones. For 2-channel people that should be a great feature.
The chances of you getting great sound with the SR1a is 100% with a decent amp while with speakers the room and other factors can lead to a higher chance of things being somewhat less than perfect.
BTW - I have an office and Livingroom system that I think are perfect. I threw out all my boxes so this gear is not going anywhere. My RAALs are good as my office system (Magnepan based) and almost as good as my Livingroom, Yamaha NS5000 based. I listen for at least 10 hours M-F (usually 15 hours).
|
+1 @inna I had Mystere integrated and replacing original tubes made a big improvement.
|
Hi OP,
I have been retired for five years. Before retirement, I went through the same kind of thinking. I upgraded so I would no longer have to make any more purchases. After retirement for a couple years I realized I could afford another upgrade and did. You can see my systems under my userID.
I am fortunate to have both a very good headphone system and main system. I use them both. I listen to my main system about three hours a day and my headphone system about half the time for an hour a day. But unless you are really unusual, having just a headphone system will not fulfilling and comfortable as a main system. Obviously both would be preferred. Assembling an ideal system is about equally difficult for headphone or main system.
As far as the sound quality… I completely understand. Happily my system has the kind of detail, midrange bloom, and rhythm and pace you describe. A system that sucks you in through the upright bass line or the vibrations of low notes from a sax.
I think it would be really helpful to start by hearing the sound you are after. I recommend going and listening to an Audio Research I-50 with some good quality speakers. I remember the first time I heard this unit 6 years ago (?)… I was just shocked how warm and wonderful it sounded. I realize because of the really low sensitivity of your speakers this unit will not drive your speakers. But the purpose is to answer the question is this what you are going for. If this has got the stuff, then you want to be looking at used ARC, Conrad Johnson, Cary, or VAC. Rogue uses tubes, but does not get the sound these other companies do.
Some of this tube stuff would pair well with Quads.. which would really send your system towards where you want it to be.
|
For me, some of the best sounds I've ever heard came from the top of the line Woo Audio tube headphone units and Audeze or Hifiman headphones. Not heard the Focals.
Strongly recommend Fritz as great sounding and very easy to buy/live with.
|
@noromance +1! Quads rule! I have two pairs and a pair of Futterman OTL amps.
|
For transparency and coherency nothing beats electrostatic speakers! Check out the latest generation of Quad ESL's.
|
" Should i chunk the integrated and Perspectives and invest in a top notch set of headphones (like the Focal Clear MG) and dedicated headphone amp? "
Your PL HP has a headphone output. I use one too
|
|
+1 @zlone An R2R DAC sounds like a good experiment.
|
Nice system. I think I know what you are looking for sound-wise, I am a jazz listener and it is my goal as well. I don't have any hard answers, but a few things come to mind.
- Your DAC reviews well, but have you tried anything else? Maybe an R2R? How does it sound if you use the embedded DAC in the Lumin?
- Since you like your CD player best, are you using the internal DAC there or sending the signal to the RME DAC?
- Are you running ethernet or are you using wireless for streaming?
- The one cable that might be a big upgrade and get you closer to your desired sound is the SPDIF cable between streamer and DAC. What are you currently using?
|
As you seem to like what you have, I would recommend trying some “better” cables from the cable company. In my experience, the difference between cables can range anywhere from no difference to “holy sh%t” and the only way to tell is to try. I would try speaker cables first, although many say power cords. Looking for that last 10% can be time consuming and expensive.
|
Having just flunked my audiology test, one advantage of headphones is that
some of the newer ones offer DSP in that an App runs a hearing test and then sculpts the sound according to one’s needs. I am not a big lover of cans but this might make some sense for me to investigate
|
I have that exact sound you are looking for. Jazz (and everything!) sounds amazing. Inner detail, perfect timbre, instant attack, black backgrounds, explicit detail without fatigue, sweet as a nut.
Original recordings on vinyl. Idler drive. Decca cartridges, tubes, Quad ESL.
|
ezstreams, I can't advise on the equipment, I only try to follow more expensive pieces and mostly tube equipment.
I personally don't enjoy headphones because I don't like music in my head as opposed to the space in front of and around me, but I know that some really prefer headphones actually for similar reason ! Yeah, in any case, headphones must be comfortable.
|
Thank you both for your insights and suggestions. My understanding is that one of the major headphone shortcomings is their lack of a “realistic” soundstage. That and comfort issues in long listening sessions. The organically accurate sound i described is far more important to me than sound stage. That’s my personal preference. I get frustrated with my system whenever i recognize that I’m not hearing those details. It’s never bothered me and I’ve never had the urge to turn my system off when i couldn’t place the drummer, guitar, piano, or bass location on stage. Long term listening session head and ear fatigue could become an issue.
That said, one reason I’m even considering headphones is nobody else in my family (wife, son, daughter, their spouses, or any of my 5 grandchildren are interested in hi-fi so its really just me.
@inna with my upcoming retirement, im considering getting out of tubes (at least on the power side). Do you have any experience wth the relatively new Primaluna EVO 300 Hybrid Integrated amp? Thats a non-headphone option im considering. The other option i find intersting, is even more of a departure from my current system, and that is to go full solid state with something like the Hi-Fi Rose RS 520 streaming integrated.
I need to research if there is a way to listen to these options without having to buy them all then resell what doesn't provide what I'm striving for. Here is where the insights and opinions of the Audiogon members is so valuable.
@yyzsantabarbara I’ve read great reviews on the RAAL ear speakers. How do you find them for extended listening sessions from a comfort perspective? My current Primaluna integrated has a highly rated headphone amp.
|
@ezstreams My RAAL SR1b earphone is essentially 2 speakers hanging from my ears. I hate headphone sound and the SR1b is not like headphones and very similar to 2-channel.
The best headphone amp for the SR1b is the VM-1a and it cost $7k, I sold that amp recently because there is a new 2-channel adapter from RAAL ($800) that allows you to get very close to the $7 k amp with a 2-channel amp. Now your 2-channel just needs to be up to the task.
One of the very best amps I had on the SR1b was the KRELL k-300i integrated amp. The KRELL is likely similar to the Primaluna Dialogue you own.
I do not have too much experience with other headphones so when I say the SR1b is the best phone out there it does not carry much weight. However, there are a lot of folks on Head-fi.com who own the very best and now consider the SR1b either the best or in the small cohort of the best. The negative comment on the SR1a in comparison to other top phones is that it does not have massive bass, for me that is a feature and not a bug. I am comparing against phones that cost any amount of money.
True Ribbon Headphones | RAAL-requisite (raalrequisite.com)
The adapter you want to get to use with the Prima Luna is the RAAL TI-1b.
TI-1b • RAAL-requisite (raalrequisite.com)
If you want more info send me a DM and I will give you more options. Over the past 4 years I must have spent close to $40k getting these to sound the best, with amp rolling, speaker cables, etc... I am now using a Schitt Aegir amp ($800) to drive my SR1b. Not because of the price, but the sound.
BTW - I just saw this last sentence
Or should i go the route of chucking all but the Perspectives and the Nucleus and invest in a high quality Roon approved integrated amp with built in DAC/Streamer?
The KRELL K-300i is one such integrated amp. One of the very best integrated amps around. Buttery smooth Class A sound and so enjoyable.
|
I am heavily biased since I don't like headphones much and only listen to them if I have to and while recording. You are going to get many opinions. Before replacing your amp I would first replace tubes in it, all of them perhaps. Talk to Kevin from Upscale Audio if you go with current reissue tubes and to Brent from Audio Tubes if you go with NOS tubes. Your amp can sound significantly better than it does now. It is hard to simplify if you want to keep three sources unless you go with integrated amp with both phono stage and dac.
|
