Too bad I can't afford to test this. However, Ralph's amps are particular, there is a fan following and there are those who don't like them at all. They are also said to be very good driving electrostatic speakers.

Everyone likes VAC and Lamm, no matter the cables.

Next thing I know, someone will say that choice of tubes doesn't matter either. Great amp will sound great with anything in it. Oh, and power cords make no difference if the power supply is great. 

In general, when dealing with balanced audio connections, the cable itself should have a minimal impact on sound quality, especially over short distances. Balanced connections are designed to reject interference and noise, making them less susceptible to signal degradation due to cable quality compared to unbalanced connections. However, this doesn't mean that all XLR cables are created equal, and some factors can influence your choice of XLR cables: just like Cable Length、Build Quality、Interference、Personal Preference

A while back, somehow I came across @atmasphere numerous comments about Mogami wire / XLR.  I have all Ayre equipment - QB-9 Twenty DAC, KX-5 Twenty Preamp, VX-5 Twenty amp with Wilson Audio speakers.  If Ayre equipment isn't balanced, I don't know what is.  

I use Mogami 2549 (2 conductor) cable with Neutrix connectors between all of it, including longer runs in XLR to dual subs.  If I experienced noise (which I don't) I would use the quad conductor Mogami - 2534.  The 2549 has much lower capacitance. I've found it via "World's Best Cable" in various lengths and the construction quality appears high. 

As for me and what I've experienced, this XLR interconnect issue is settled. Another friend with 3 separate "megabuck" systems in his home has found the same. 

Ralph ​​​​​​@atmasphere - Thank You for taking the time to share thoughtful expertise, as I've seen you do many times in the past.  You're helping people you don't even realize you're helping, and I'm sure many others are also appreciative.  

@inna I think maybe you've bought a ticket for the wrong flight. 

A friend of mine was considering buying Mogami interconnects and to help out I did a lot of research. My conclusion, only from research, was that the Mogami interconnects are worth their price… meaning that if they cost $100 their sound quality is in line with $100 interconnects… versus say $1,000 or higher, major high end brand interconnects.. like Cardas, Transparent, etc. I have not tried them myself, but I found the conclusion very compelling, and consistent with their construction.

All XLR cables sound the same? A fantasy that we all wish were true. I thought that based on a lot of talk on these forums until I started trying out some different XLR’s in my system. Then I bought some of the top of the line Purist Audio Design cables to go between my preamp and amps. None of that cheap $100/ft stuff. These cables cost much more than that- $500/ft and you won’t pry these cables out of my hands. The difference in sound is startling. The soundstage is totally black. I thought it was quiet before but not like this. The bass came alive. Night and day difference in the bass. And the highs are so creamy good. When I hear cymbals I just want to hug myself. I could go on; but I won’t. High priced, yes but high satisfaction. Everything matters.

My generalizations come from listening to a number of high quality components and comparing the sound quality output. The results I have experience are exactly like speaker cables, other interconnects, power cords and Ethernet and USB cables… they sound different when comparing on medium or high quality electronics. Typically better quality ones sound better… but subject the variability of the particular system.

Standards are useful… but typically are suboptimal for high performance anything… high end design engineers are aware of them, and if they do not follow them, it is usually because they get in the way of performance or funtionality.

@ghdprentice @tonywinga I can’t stress enough how important it is to support the balanced standards! If the designer does not do this, regardless of whatever benefit they might think is there, the simple fact is that you lose the benefit of cable neutrality. IOW, you’ll hear differences between cables, and that isn’t a good thing!

The reason its not a good thing is very simple: next year, whoever made your cable will have a better one, and if he doesn’t, someone else will. Everyone here knows that. Its good that the system is revealing so that it can delineate cable problems, bad that the cables have problems that can be heard as ’bad, good, better’ and so on. If you hear differences between two cables, neither one is right.

Put another way, if you are hearing differences between balanced cables, this makes it highly likely that the equipment you are using for that audition doesn’t support the standards, even though fully differential and/or balanced. I’m not saying that equipment doesn’t sound good- I’m sure it does. But because it doesn’t support the standard, there is a veil between you and the music which is the cable itself.

I can’t think of a good reason to not support the standard- only bad ones: there are only three ways to do it and they all cost money. One way is to use an output transformer, another way is the way we do it, which we patented. Most high end companies don’t like paying patent fees solely on ego (’not invented here’). There’s an integrated circuit that does the job as well, but many tube preamp producers are loathe to put something like that at the output of their preamp. So we have a large number of manufacturers that for whatever reason aren’t supporting the standard; I very much doubt its for sound quality reasons!

I can see (+), (-), and ground output wires on each the Left and Right PCB inside my DAC.  They are labeled as such on the PCB.  So best I can tell is that it has the signal, 180 out of phase signal and ground going to the XLRs on the back.  I also see some small transformers which I’m guessing go to the RCAs.  That seems to be per the standard.  I have not looked that closely at my preamp, but I will sometime.  In any case these XLR cables make a significant difference in sound with the DAC through the preamp or direct.  (My DAC is a preamp as well.)  My amp are a balanced design too.  This also holds true for vinyl.

What you seem to be implying is that the internal wiring in a balanced amplifier, or preamp is not important either.  Then the question would be how good do the resistors, inductors and capacitors need to be?  Or the PCBs?

What you seem to be implying is that the internal wiring in a balanced amplifier, or preamp is not important either.

@tonywinga If this comment is directed at me, no, I did not imply that at all! The quality needed internally is very dependent on how the internal circuitry works.

atmasphere

... there are only three ways to do it and they all cost money. One way is to use an output transformer, another way is the way we do it, which we patented. Most high end companies don’t like paying patent fees solely on ego (’not invented here’). There’s an integrated circuit that does the job as well, but many tube preamp producers are loathe to put something like that at the output of their preamp.

And then there's the fourth way, which I think may be the most common: use an operational amplifier. ("Op-amp.") They can be fully discrete, and seem to be the approach used by many, such as ARC, for example.

I agree with you that internal components are critical but I posit that the external components, such as cables are also important.  

I recall a discussion in the 90s about speaker cables.  The question was most speakers used cheap, thin wire internally to the drivers as well as fairly inexpensive components in the crossovers.  So what was the point of buying expensive speaker cables?

That led me to rewire my fairly expensive speakers at the time.  I rewired them with Monster Cable (the good stuff and boy did it solder easily- thick wire made up of hair sized strands) and used some small film caps as bypass caps on the electrolytics.  It improved the sound some- but not as much as good speaker cables, as I recall.  I don't understand how or why that is.

One question- and it is a valid one is what balanced cables do professional recording use on their microphones?  Is it basic XLR cabling?  That's what many on this forum say.  Studios do not spring for high dollar cabling.  On the other hand, what do some audiophile studios such as David Wilson, Reference Recordings or Chesky Records, etc use?  I have some of those records and they sound really good.

Just tried the Mogami Neglex 2534 Balanced Cables that you can buy on Amazon for under $100 terminated with nice Neutrik XLR's. They come in various lengths for not much money.

They are a very nice cable.

I have used both Mogami and Canare Cables for both interconnects (RCA and XLR) and Canare for speaker cables especially their 4S11's in a biwired configueration.

I saw this thread a couple of days ago and didn't have anything to add since I make most of my own cables.  

I just bought a streamer that needed an AES/EBU cable.  I wanted silver plated for digital and so I ordered cable and connectors from DH labs.  made the cable up and was very impressed, not just with the quality of the cable as I assembled it but also with the obvious improvement in sound quality.

I decided to search the forum here for DH Labs and found page after page of positive comments, going all the way back to 2000.  I don't know when Audiogon started but probably not much before then.  Very solid and consistent praise.  

I will also add that the people at DH Labs were great to deal with.

Looks like the Silver Pulse cable is a bit more than $100 a pair ($180) but think they will compete favorably with cables much more expensive.  

Jerry

And then there's the fourth way, which I think may be the most common: use an operational amplifier. ("Op-amp.") They can be fully discrete, and seem to be the approach used by many, such as ARC, for example.

@cleeds  Opamps can generate a balanced output easily enough, but not one that is floating. The output of any opamp is single-ended, so to hear it, the other connection is ground. So to do a balanced output, you'd need at least 2 opamps, each generating a single-ended output, one out of phase with the other. Each referencing ground, so no, this won't support the standard. But it is balanced. An output transformer or our direct-coupled output section both produce an output that is floating.

To use a chip based solution, you need something like this, a balanced line driver IC, which is also floating.

I agree with you that internal components are critical but I posit that the external components, such as cables are also important.  

I recall a discussion in the 90s about speaker cables.  The question was most speakers used cheap, thin wire internally to the drivers as well as fairly inexpensive components in the crossovers.  So what was the point of buying expensive speaker cables?

To be clear, I've never stated that speaker cables are not important. They are, IMO, IME. Because they can be critical (especially if you are running lower impedance loads, like 4 Ohms) its best to keep them as short as possible. To this end I keep my amps right by the speakers and run long interconnects. That way I can have the equipment stand for the front end of the system where I want it rather than forced to sit between the speakers. Since RCA cables can and do impose a sound of their own (which is bad) to minimize colorations due to cables, having long balanced interconnects and short speaker cables makes a lot of sense, especially if the associated equipment supports the balanced standard.

atmasphere

Opamps can generate a balanced output easily enough, but not one that is floating.

Correct. And I know you are really focused on the AES48 balanced standard, because you keep mentioning it. But you’ll just have to accept that many manufacturers use balanced, differential circuits in other ways, and they do so successfully.

@soix @marco1 @j-wall 

I'm also enjoying an Atma-Sphere MP3.3 with Class D's. I wasn't certain about this balanced/ XLR deal coming from RCA's my whole life, but all I can say is that I'm done with RCA's. I hope I never have to deal with them again!

I am happily with my Morrow MA4s and MA5s in XLR. I also used Kimber Select KS 1116s and they are great—much higher price point than the Morrows. They were a little better than the Morrows but a lot more expensive. In my system at least, balanced cables always sound better RCAs, no contest. 

@veerossi don't even get me started. I was supposed to be waiting a few months to jump into the MP3.3 lagoon, and hearing this has me really curious. I've enjoyed my cable tweaking, but haven't gotten to RCA'S yet so if I can skip this step and go fully balanced and not need to wonder "what if", I'm all in. What pre did you come from before and what do you think about the RCA and swapping to balanced on the MP3.3?

@atmasphere hey Ralph, why don't we have a balanced speaker cable yet? Is this possible?

@j-wall

I was going to wait as well, but I came across a nice deal I couldn’t turn down on a MP3.3. I’ve only had integrated gear until now. This is my first set of monoblocks and first time using a separate preamplifier. I’ve gone through lots of gear in the past and most of it used RCA’s. I’ve tried from the bottom-of-the-line RCA’s to top-of-the-line and DIY as well. The results were all over the board. My DIY’s with Duelund wire, their RCA connectors, and Cardas solder sounded better to me than some of top brand cables. It was a pleasant surprise.

This is my first time with gear where I’m using the balanced/ XLR connections. I’ve only tried 2 XLR brands so far, but I’m pleased with my current setup This combo of gear with the Mogami’s sounds wonderful to me. My gear and cable chasing days are over. Now, on to the next part of my journey: room treatment.

If your dealer has an MP3.3 configured the way you want- grab it. YOLO...or whatever the kids say nowadays. It transformed my system and I have nothing but good things to say about it. BTW: I was using the Lumin streamer LeedH volume control direct to the monoblocks before it.

It appears that many here maybe missing the premiss of how/why this thread was started.  The premiss being that if your preamp and amp meet the balanced standard you should not hear a difference between properly constructed XLR interconnects when the XLR interconnects are used between a preamp and amp that meet the balanced standard.  It has nothing to do with RCA cables or other types of cables or many other things as many continue to talk about. If you do hear a difference between XLR interconnects when they are used to connect a preamp to an amp then chances are the preamp and/or amp do not meet the balanced standard.  It does not necessarily mean that the preamp and amp are not quality components. Quite the contrary, there are quality audio components that do not meet the balanced standard. What is does mean is that to improve SQ you may have to spend more money on interconnects and/or continue to chase you tail if your preamp and amp do not meet the standard.  Again, I thought that is what was asked in the original OP and how this discussion at least got started.  Can we all at least agree on that :-).

I sure can. One of the problems, and a big one, as I see it, is Ralph's endless self-advertising. As if there were no other good amps or engineering approaches. There are, and many. I believe that manufacturers and dealers should be honorably dismissed. It doesn't matter how much knowledge and skill they might have, this is not a proper place for them to be.

Mogami 2534 with Furutech 701 balanced connectors, personally I prefer the 701's to the much more expensive 601 series, Take Five Audio has everything you need to build your own or they can professionally terminate the cables for you. A professional quality termination on your balanced cable is going to matter more than the actual cable used in this application but Mogami cables perform above and beyond their price level add a great connector and Gene's skill at building cables you end up with a cable that is very tough to beat.

If you don’t need the additional noise rejection of a quad cable, consider the twisted pair Mogami W2549, which shares the same materials and shielding of the W2534.

High Quality Balanced Microphone Cable Neglex Type #22AWG

W2549 has been designed using our famous Neglex OFC to provide the highest quality audio reproduction in any recording application. It features #22AWG conductors and extremely low capacitance. The 100% coverage served shield and twisted pair construction is excellent at preventing noise caused by electromagnetic interference. This cable is recommended when extended high frequencies are important or where long cable runs may be needed.

Part No. W2549

+1 for Blue Jeans Cable

inna

One of the problems, and a big one, as I see it, is Ralph’s endless self-advertising. As if there were no other good amps or engineering approaches. There are, and many. I believe that manufacturers and dealers should be honorably dismissed. It doesn’t matter how much knowledge and skill they might have, this is not a proper place for them to be.

I appreciate the sentiment but I think the conversations still benefit from people like Ralph. His bias is pretty obvious, but we all have biases. Frankly, I think Ralph’s presence and contributions here sometimes hurt his business as much as helps it.

@inna @cleeds I disagree with both of you regarding @atmasphere presence here. If there’s a hobby where the owner craves affirmation / approval for their chosen brand(s), it’s this one. If @atmasphere is doing anything wrong, it’s probably that he’s wasting time sharing decades of experience with people convinced they think they know better because they’ve read feedback from other amateurs, tried tried a few different things, and branded themselves an "expert" such that they are going to "teach" someone with decades of experience actually designing and building equipment exactly at the heart of the discussion. I am certainly no expert, but I’ve followed Ralph’s advice, and want for nothing. I’m sure it’s just a matter of my ignorance being bliss, which is fine too. I am an expert in one thing, though... I am pretty good and discerning the difference between chicken shyte and chicken salad.  Unfortunately, I've wasted money on and heard plenty of chicken shyte in the past branded as "great".   

One of the problems, and a big one, as I see it, is Ralph’s endless self-advertising. As if there were no other good amps or engineering approaches. There are, and many.

+1 @jim2 and I couldn’t disagree more with this statement from @inna. There are others here who are well known for shamelessly promoting their own products while also denigrating competitive products and even recommendations from other members (that I do think should be grounds for expulsion here), but Ralph is most certainly not one of them and to even imply such a thing is just utterly foolish.

I agree with @cleeds 

Having industry professionals like Ralph around here at least provides interesting perspective and, in many cases, initiates discussions that result in me looking stuff up and learning new things.

They all have their own way of doing things, which creates variety in the gear we use, and they are passionate about the industry (a good thing).  There are a couple who stand out for their vehement belief that theirs is the only true path (i.e., Robert from Live-Vibe comes to mind) but I believe their participation is a positive addition to the discussions and I appreciate when they show up. 

Based on this discussion, I believe that equipment following the AES48 standard will exhibit no differences in sound between properly built cables. I also believe that there is well designed “balanced” gear that does not completely follow the standard and may be affected by cable design and quality. 

My question, how do you know whether a piece of equipment meets the AES48 standard to the letter? And what happens if you mix and match?

Mogami makes some of the best, and you could also make your own 

The standard addresses EMI rejection. More to sound quality than noise and interference.  

For example, if one were to compare silver wire XLRs to copper wire XLRs do you really believe there would be no difference in the sound?
 

The standard addresses grounding and EMC (electromagnetic compatibility) through connections between cable shields/screens, shielding enclosures, and any EMI circuitry.  

As if there were no other good amps or engineering approaches. There are, and many. I believe that manufacturers and dealers should be honorably dismissed. It doesn’t matter how much knowledge and skill they might have, this is not a proper place for them to be.

@inna If you want a good S/PDIF cable, it will have to be a certain characteristic impedance and is based on AES3. A good USB cable will meet the standards required by the USB standard. The standards are required by the principles of operation. Manufacturers usually know that if they are to make a cable for those applications they will have to adhere to the standards. The same is true of manufacturers of the hardware itself.

The puzzling thing is why the balanced standard is so commonly ignored in high end audio. In any other field of electronic endeavor, it would be considered bad practice and the manufacturer of such equipment would likely be out of business fairly quickly.

I’m not saying (as I pointed out earlier) that high end audio equipment that does not support the standard does not sound good. I am saying that when it does not, the cable is a veil in the system. That’s all.

Manufacturers choose whether or not they want to deal with that problem. Its not a value judgement on my part but I sense that you think it is. Personally I don’t get why anyone would want to have a cable be a veil in their system, but maybe the realization that the cable will be exactly that simply hasn’t dawned. Plus people get into this sport for very different reasons. I like to listen to music, but some like horse trading equipment, looking at how manufacturers solved certain problems (pick up a copy of The Art of the Motorcycle, which illustrates how this works in the motorbike world), being able to say how much they did or didn’t spend and so on.

atmasphere

The puzzling thing is why the balanced standard is so commonly ignored in high end audio.

You understand that AES48 is just one "standard," correct? There are other ways to design balanced components and choosing an alternative doesn't mean the standard you so cherish is "ignored."

When I take a banana out of the fridge, I'm not ignoring the apple. I'm choosing one over the other.

You understand that AES48 is just one "standard," correct? There are other ways to design balanced components and choosing an alternative doesn't mean the standard you so cherish is "ignored."

@cleeds You are correct to a point. There are other ways go design balanced components. My only point here is that if they don't support the standard, the cable will be a veil. Put another way, expect to have to audition cables just like you do with single-ended stuff to get the best 'sound'.

There are two aspects of the balanced standard. One is AES48. The other is the low impedance aspect (which means the input impedance of the amp might be as low as 600 Ohms- you can see right there why a lot of tube preamp manufacturers don't do that...).

XLR Cable and Chassis Connector Grounding

"Neutrik is often asked whether the shiny silver tab on typical XLR cable connectors should be connected to anything."

"In the course of the evolution of the AV industry, it has come to be that this tab is practically never terminated. This means, in turn, that the shell is not grounded. When in doubt, simply leave this tab unterminated."

"Whether or not they are internally wired to the shield signal, XLR cable connector shells always make an electrical connection to chassis connector shells once the two are mated."

"Typically, chassis connectors need to be grounded. The industry best practice is generally to tie all of the chassis connector shells, pin 1 (cable shields), and the enclosure shield to a common ground."

Excerpts from:

Neutrik USA Today - Grounding XLR connectors - Volume 6, Issue 2, June 2016

Read the entire Neutrik application note →

Additional Reading: AES48 - "AES standard on interconnections - Grounding and EMC practices - Shields of connectors in audio equipment containing active circuitry."

Note: Benchmark uses Neutrik cable and chassis connectors because of their superior performance and durability.

In accordance with these best practices outlined above, Benchmark bonds pin 1 of XLR chassis connectors directly to chassis ground. Benchmark leaves the cable tab unterminated on all analog XLR cables, but terminates this tab on AES digital XLR cables.

Benchmark recommends leaving the cable tab unconnected on all analog XLR cables.

Benchmark terminates the cable tab on AES digital XLR cables to minimize radio-frequency emissions when two or more digital XLR cables are connected end-to-end. Digital cables that do not have the tab terminated should not be daisy chained.

Benchmark recommends tying the cable tab to the shield on all AES digital XLR cables.

atmasphere

My only point here is that if they don't support the standard, the cable will be a veil.

Yes, we can agree that it seems that's your only point. I'm not sure that I agree with the premise that the cables in my mostly-ARC system represent a "veil" on the sound, but I understand that you're absolutely certain that they do. After all, they do not employ your patented Balanced Differential Design® circuit.

@j-wall Wrote:

@atmasphere hey Ralph, why don’t we have a balanced speaker cable yet? Is this possible?

I don’t think it’s possible. With that said, active balanced speaker crossovers are possible. 😎

Mike

I have been involved with standards and know many people who have been on standards committees for most of my career… most are information technology in the high technology industry… including working with lots of electrical engineers developing high end DACs and other components of the subcomponents in the stuff we audiophiles use. They, by their very nature have compromises. There are always factions trying to optimize for their application. The niche groups generally do not drive the standard. There is always a better way to do something in a specific situation. A proprietary one… there are big costs to do this. The best thing to do is operate within the parts of the standard that nets you the greatest performance, don’t where it doesn’t matter. 
 

Standards serve an important function, to allow a multitude of vendors to build or write code to a common interface. Hence allowing guaranteed interconnectivity. And not to in have everyone redevelop a standard communication spec and connection each time. This is a huge amount of work. 

However, given different applications a developer can choose to follow every aspect or not. If they don’t and it is a high end designer (a competent one) they will do it for a reason. Afterall, they are going for the best possible sound and that will only happen by connecting to other components.

Yes, we can agree that it seems that's your only point. I'm not sure that I agree with the premise that the cables in my mostly-ARC system represent a "veil" on the sound

+1

Some have called me a 'cable denier' on this account. The easy way to tell if the cable is coloring things is to compare to another cable. If you hear a difference=yes, if no difference=no. Sometimes you hear tradeoffs- that's a difference.

@ditusa +1

@twoleftears +1

@ghdprentice +1

I have recently bought many pro audio XLR cables Mogami 2549, Mogami 3173, Canare L-4E6S, Gotham GAC 4/1 Ultra Pro and Belden 1800f. I believe that there are no absolutes in Audio. What works in one system or between two components will have different outcomes. You have to try for yourself in your system. With that being said these are all excellent interconnects for the price and they do have different tonal balance, dynamics, soundstaging etc. I settled on Blue Jeans Belden 1800f between Pre and Amp and Mogami 2549 between Dac and Pre.I just inserted Cardas Clear Reflection and I have to say they create a very dense sonic picture. What you prefer is up to your ears.

Pine tree audio makes incredible cables. All hand made. Made to order. My entire system is Pine Tree audio cables.

What look for is great cable and great connectors 

checkout : 

WORLDS BEST CABLES 5 Foot – Quad Balanced Microphone Cable Custom Made Using Mogami 2534 Wire and Neutrik NC3MXX Male & NC3FXX Female Silver XLR Plugs

and Bluejean cables

... and the giant print makes them even better!

WireworldEclipse are by far the best under $500 interconnects out there 

just read p all they have the competition doesnot.

"just read p all they have the competition doesnot."

- what?

Take my advise........Get yourself a pair of heavily discounted, pre-owned Audioquest "Earth" XLR interconnects, and thank me latter.  

Pinetree makes nice cables at a reasonable price, but not very professional  customer service. I wanted to exchange  the speaker cables I bought, it was NOT a custom order, just unterminated. And  the response I got was, too bad, buy another set! They also have one of the most punitive return policies around so be sure of what you are ordering. Im all for buying local and small  dealer. But for want of one simple return after buying several other cables from PT in the past, they have lost all my future business. People nostalgic for mom&pop remember who stands behind their sales.

Amazon, Worlds Best Cables. They have at least two XLR interconnects under $100. Mogami is one and Canare the other I think, OR if you want to really step up

Consider looking for a used Audience Ohno.