As always, the forum community is like the "Eye of Sauron" or if there was such a thing, the "Ear of Sauron": omniscient and never wrong in their opinions. Some comments are helpful and kind but it can be interesting. Discussions re. vinyl v. CD v. streaming are endless. Some obvious points re. CDs, less prone to damage, more affordable (than vinyl), easier to store if that's important, essentially zero surface noise, the bit rate and gapless playback are great. And if you want, you can rip to a hard drive/NAS and then "stream".
Can we agree, vinyl, streaming, and CDs each have pros and cons? Beyond endless debate, what do you enjoy? I oft repeat Hans Beekhuyzen when he concludes his YouTube posts, and whatever you do... enjoy the music.
Streaming. I use TIDAL primarily 75% of my listening time, and 5% or so Spotify. (I tried Qobuz and Amazon HD but preferred TIDAL.) Can we acknowledge that streaming services have pros and cons? What matters is which one(s) do you like and enjoy?
Short Answer, I love my CD player and the resulting sound.
Long Answer, I have a large CD collection. Not all are available via streaming. After almost 1 year of research, I bought the QUAD Artera Play+ for about $2000. In that price range, you'll find about 3-4 comparable brands. (If you are interested, search reviews. Most are are high.) I have a McIntosh amp, Revel F328Be speakers, et. al. components. I use XLR connections (another debated point) from the QUAD and my DAC to the McIntosh (early on I decide for all XLR balanced connections on my equipment. My room, while not perfect, is well treated with diffusers and many panels, etc.)
When I "A-B" CDs with a variety of streaming tracks (including the hotly debated "love it or hate it" MQA and other files), generally the CD sounds better. I have a few audiophile friends who are far more knowledgeable than me and they agree, the CD often sounds better, sometimes significantly. John Darko has several interesting YouTube posts on CDs that would be worth your time.
Many great CD transports/players are available. The QUAD's UI is a bit clunky but feature rich, including the ability to program tracks you may not want to hear on a particular CD. (I find this feature wonderful with film score/soundtracks when there's an occasional track that's not a piece of music I enjoy. Additionally, and I may be labeled a heretic, but in some classical pieces, the length, repetition, or sometimes bombastic and high tension pieces get on my nerves, you can tell the player once and it remembers to skip those tracks. Not the reason to buy the unit obviously, but a nice feature. The DAC in the QUAD is imo amazing. I was more than amazed at the QUAD's performance. It's built like a truck. I literally cannot hear the CD disc spinning once in the player. That's impressive.
Last, and very surprisingly, when I can't figure out a feature or function on the QUAD their customer service actually responds quickly via email!
I hope you find a solution that's great for you!
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Nice second system digital front end! @facten I would love to hear your system someday. Your Daedalus Argos V2s are also most interesting. The Neodio sounded wonderful streaming, but CDs played through this unit were extraordinary.
Some of the very best digital I have ever heard.
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@jafant - In my main system my previous sources were a Mojo Audio EVO DAC and Simaudio 260D CD Transport. I enjoyed listening with them and have moved them into my 2nd system. I don’t stream but if I decide to and want to use my main system the Neodio also has SPDIF and USB digital inputs for that purpose.
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Why?
This is a very profound question.
Let me have a stab:
to play cds, sacds...?
no?
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facten
You are very fortunate to own a Neodio Origine S2 Player. Very sweet.
Which CD player did you own previously?
Happy Listening!
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@vonhelmholtz You laid out the reasons, wise choice in my estimation.
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@vonhelmholtz
Your decision sounds reasonable. Certainly getting rid of the big pile of disk drives. I have been in IT most of my career… so I have about 50tb in storage… not including a bunch of source disks laying around. 1) my primary PC (14TB), 2) NAS 14TB… and 3) backup Drobo (16tb) (USB connect). I try to maintain 2 backups.
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This has been a great conversation. I looked at my digital world and realized that it is mostly in boxes on 20+ hard drives..none of it audio. My whole digital life, my family, business ..now retired .. is all in boxes on random hard drives. So, I decided to consolidate, wipe all drives and dispose or sell them.
I just purchased a five bay Synology DS1522+/Four 16TB enterprise drives.. can add more later.. 32GB of Ram and 800GB of M.2 NVMe SSD cache. My external CD/DVD drive comes today and I will store all music on the NAS, as well as centralize 50,000+ Lightroom photos + years of family videos. So, I spent my CD transport money on a NAS.. rather a different outcome than I saw coming into this conversation. What I give up is being able to listen to a limited number SACD discs and what I will need to do is maximize my streamer. It is clear to me that with enough money, I could buy a CD transport that will outshine present day streaming, but I don’t believe that this difference will remain and streaming equipment will get better with time. Retirement involves projects, hobbies..a bit of travel and like always..obeying the almighty spouse.. The NAS is a project/hobby. Well, gotta go.. some power cables just arrived...Thanks for all the input...Gary
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I agree with above. For some of you, you may wish to go the Audiogon forum and look up the Project RS2T blog, very lengthy and informative. It discusses that referenced transport, and add your own DAC ( a good one, subjective of course) and your CD collection will literary amaze you. I own a audiolab transport 6000, a very good machine, However, by replacing it with the Project model, you will hear CD's like you have never heard them before. At that point you can now compare streaming services. I stream qobuz R&R loudly and believe me you may more often than not choose your CD over the Stream. I enjoy both.... On a good system with that transport and associated DAC, you won't believe your ears. Talk to anyone that owns one! Robert TN Ps. read some of Charles dad1 posts on the topic, as he owns one also. Audiogon Project RS2T blog A very interesting read
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I'd forget about buying a transport.
I keep my digital library (> 4000 CDs) on a network drive, ripped in FLAC on my computer and we have A/B tested CD play vs network several times without finding any preference. I keep a player in my main system because I have it, but use it very rarely to audition the odd CD to see if I want to add it to the library.
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@grannyring - Thank you. Guessing that you should be close to receiving your Tron Atlantic Signature DAC. I auditioned the GT version while at Gestalt Audio and very much understand why you wrote up the review you did of it; it is thoroughly engaging.
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Another consideration. Many new innovations with streaming equipment, highly likely it will only improve over time. Should we expect cd transports are going to evolve in similar fashion?
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@facten
”Neodio Origine S2 cd player” This CD player/dac sounds so beautiful. Congrats on your purchase of this player. I have heard it and it certainly is very, very special. Wow! Anyone on this thread, regardless of format opinion, would be floored with the breath taking sound of this unit playing redbook CDs.
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I have lived without a transport for a few years now. All my CD's are ripped to FLAC and streamed right alongside Qobuz.
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@secretguy ”Streaming is virtual theft.”
Artists indeed receive a mere pittance from streaming engagement (a fraction a cent per play). According to the RIAA, CD and vinyl combined sales accounted for about 11% of revenue in 2021.
My guess is that the people that go and dish out the $15 at the record store (or order online) for the fresh new CD release are few and far between these days.
When we are constantly buying used vinyl and CDs at stores, yard sales, record swaps, and from third party sellers, we’re not putting a single cent in the pockets of artists.
To the folks who purchase music, as a matter of course, in a way that directly compensates the artists at a rate greater than $0.004 per song, more power to ya.
The problem as I see it is the new CD at the store will offer, for the vast majority of listeners, little-if-any increase in sound quality, but plenty of extra price and inconvenience compared to it’s streaming/iTunes/whatever counterpart. I don’t see a lot of benefit to the buyer here aside from peripheral benefits (physical handling, better artwork, collectible pleasures, a sense of moral edification, etc.). Sure, folks fortunate enough to have high end music playback gear may be able to discern the improvement in sound from a streamed song to its CD counterpart, but, again, these folks are few are far between.
At the end of the day, how much further from “thievery” is a person who’s always buying used vinyl, used CDs, scouring Discogs, Ebay, Amazon, etc. than the person who streams all the time?
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@facten for $25K new it better! Better give you an eargasim.
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I spin Cds, just purchased a Neodio Origine S2 cd player , a fair amount of money but the music sounds sublime; draws me further to and into the music. To my ears the music is presented with more natural tone, texture and timber; there's more body to the sound; the sound-stage is more refined; the frequency extremes are well balanced; and there's no digital edginess.
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I like to have the ability to play all the different formats that I can. To me, that’s the fun of the hobby. Why limit yourself. Certain recordings sound different in different formats, that’s the fun of exploring different platforms. If your finances allow, make the most of it. If you are happy with only one certain medium, then more power to you!
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Two posts that I found informative, on this, neverending subject:
Mikelavigne wrote:
at the entry level it’s a horse apiece.....computers are servers. servers are computers. maybe a dedicated server has slightly less noise, and maybe a better power cord than a sever; but likely your network bandwidth, network switch, ethernet and usb cables will have a greater effect than other choices at this level.
2--mid level dedicated servers will outperform regular computers and laptops since they eliminate much of the peripheral noisy processing duties of the normal computers. there is a clear difference to go dedicated.
3--price no object server levels they far outperform any computer or laptop. but you are talking $20k to $100k for a music server. i own a $76k music server and it is awesome sounding and significantly outperforms my previous $30k+ music server. once i heard the difference i could not 'unhear' it. and took the plunge.
Post from owner and constructor of Mojo Audio
Benjamin from Mojo Audio here.
I just wanted to let you all know that my current reference digital source is a modified Jay’s Audio CD transport.
The time, tune, and harmonic coherency is like nothing I’ve ever heard. And I’ve owned some pretty exotic CD transports
Don’t ask me to explain why, but the best computer audio won’t hold a candle to a proper CD transport. Even those new JCAT XE OCXO clocked USB cards, which has the same type of OCXO clock as the Jay’s CD transport, is not even close.
When I played this for some local audiophiles all their jaws dropped. The sound was so much better than any digital music they ever heard no one ever asked to go back to computer audio for a comparison.
I now consider the best computer audio as background music. The timing and tune are totally messed up. Streaming is worse, but even music played from your music library on an internal SSD is off time and tune.
Seriously. Once you hear it you can’t unhear it. The sound those of you who are real music lovers have been waiting for.
I removed all computers from my main system. If I’m going to warm up my tube amp, I’m going to change CDs from now on.'
So, the answer is 'it depends', (could it be any other) of the level of gear you will use and money that you (or anyone) is ready to invest to 'beat' one or another 'type' of reproduction.
In the same time, the quality of recordings that are streamed is often dubious or unknown and than, the physical media is perhaps the better solution...
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I to am a vinyl freak if you are like me you have invested the price of a nice car in you rig. If this is true IMO 4000 is not going to top your current playback. I have heard several digital streaming rigs that competes the MP 2000 R MKII has a CD also but it will set you back 10K after taxes. The others are way more expensive.
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In my experience differences in sound quality between CD, stored files, and streaming is entirely contingent on your component choices. I have extensive experience since I bought one of the first high end CD player that was released shortly after the CD was released. I constantly tried new technologies as the became available… stored files on drives, solid state drives, network attachable storage, and different streaming configurations.
I am currently giving away all my CDs and relying exclusively on Aurender streamers. Best sound ever.
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In our experience, transports still provide a better sound versus streaming as used for a front end. BUT if you want better digital sound, get the best DAC that pleases you and your most of the way their.
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Shazam! Some people here get it. You don't have to give up cd's just because you stream, you rip the cd's to local files, don't need a transport. I found cd rips sound quality superior to cd over transport at time I was transitioning, final nail in cd playing coffin.
Take the funds allocated to cd transport, put into streaming setup. Streaming is the future, fewer and fewer recordings will be released on cd format over time.
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Streaming is virtual theft.
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even a modest cd player can sound fantastic…. and cds are available for cheap at thrift stores- i’ve scored a lot of cool stuff for $1 or $2 at Goodwill and Salvation Army and garage sales, stuff i might not have thought of, so it’s fun to explore.
myself i have s carefully curated collection on cds organized in folders w original booklets and whatnot- collected over several decades, and like physical books it’s cool to flip through and browse etc.
streaming supplements my cd collection… and for background like a shuffled Pandora or whatever stream …
also note : buying the occasional cd new, whether it’s a classic or a new release, does help support the artist, young or old
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My 2cents: Streaming is great and only getting better as you go up the food chain. Having said that, actually owning music on CD or vinyl means no lawyer, record label, or even the artist themselves can take it away from you.
I also note that on some streaming platforms albums are incomplete for whatever legal reason. I subscribe to Tidal and the latest Daniel Lanois album Player, Piano only has TWO tracks available out of TEN that are on the album. There are several like that.
And as others note, I enjoy having a physical medium, the cover art, inserts, booklets, etc. they come with. I feel a deeper connection to the band and music playing them than I do just streaming bits from the ether, no matter how "good" it can sound.
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A few notes from my experience.
I have ripped my collection of 4000+ CDs to uncompressed FLAC (I still have all my CDs). I can't hear much if any difference between the original CD played through my PSA PerfectWave transport and PW MKII DAC vs. the FLAC. When I compare the same version on Qobuz I get the same result. They sound virtually identical to me. I'm playing Qobuz and my FLACs through my Asus ROG laptop hooked up to my DAC with USB. Couldn't be simpler.
If you have a significant number of HDCDs then you will need a player or DAC that can decode them. If you rip them with dB Poweramp it has the ability to decode them and make a 20 bit file that recovers the additional dynamic range. On a few titles I have compared my ripped FLAC with the disc itself using my Krell CD250 and I think the disc may sound a little bit better than the FLAC. One thing I can say for sure is that an HDCD sounds better played through an HDCD capable player vs. a Red Book player. I go out of my way to collect titles that have this format. Part of the reason I think HDCDs generally sound good is because the studio had to use Pacific Microsonics converters which were the best available at the time.
I haven't compared my SACDs to their hi res counterparts on Qobuz. One of these days I'll try a few to see how they stack up.
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Hmmm. Millions of available albums? My lifetime isn't long enough to enjoy even a fraction, so I think I'll stick with my vinyl, CDs, SACDs and a few cassettes to keep myself entertained.
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A proper high resolution server will have no spinning parts, hence less vibration, with lower noise through a quality internal LPS, SSD storage and file caching, and improved isolation from non-digital signals. You will get a bit further with your money this route, as chances are you would invest in a file server down the road anyways once buying, storing, and playing discs becomes too cumbersome.
The NUC you have is a great start but there are much better server solutions that include the features I list above, and the sound quality will be a huge step forward with them as a result. Happy to chat options with you over PM.
My NUC is a fanless SSD Roon Rock, which manages file caching. I believe that clean power is important. I use an Everest and Shunyata NR power cords. I also pay attention to component power supplies and try to cleanup ethernet noise prior to entering my streamer. I have an upgraded LPS for my phono preamplifier and streamer, but I was under the impression that the music server did not benefit by replacing the switching supply. Of course, the truth of the matter is best served by A/B.
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ronboco
Crescendo was the shop that used the Xbox, and the salesperson spent more time making excuses as to why I couldn't hear anything below about 60 Hz (he had removed his sub) instead of making sure his system was running its finest. I did call ahead and tell them exactly what I wants and expected. Also, their walls are paper thin and I got more sound from the unit in the room next door than the one I wanted to hear.
Soundings, What can I say, I believe this is the store that just moved and they are not even set up for auditions.
Two or three other stores, have TXT windows on their web pages and they pretend to talk to you for ages upon ages only to be told they will have someone call you back and no one ever dies. on One of those sites the person I was texting actually thought that Marantz was a speaker manufacturer.
Denver has nothing but Losers (LOOZERS!) for contact people. Colorado Springs has far better options but not many. One store there actually offered to let me bring in my speakers and try them on their amps. Not an easy task as they are full towers and weigh about 80+ lbs ea. I thought that was brave of them. But were they knowledgeable all they would have to do is pop a meter on my speaks and see what they measure before connecting than to their Equip. Also, the Springs has a few National class designers living there.
I try not to mention names, but you brought them up.
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@esarhaddon
What places have you visited in Denver ? Soundings Fine Audio and Crescendo both are high end and have very knowledgeable sales people.
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@vonhelmholtz Why not invest in a proper high resolution file server instead? Do you already have the CDs that you want to be playing through a transport? If not, you will still have to find and buy them. Most high resolution albums, even DSD versions from a SACD are available for purchase for download to local storage from HDTracks, 7digital, or other services. A proper high resolution server will have no spinning parts, hence less vibration, with lower noise through a quality internal LPS, SSD storage and file caching, and improved isolation from non-digital signals. You will get a bit further with your money this route, as chances are you would invest in a file server down the road anyways once buying, storing, and playing discs becomes too cumbersome.
The NUC you have is a great start but there are much better server solutions that include the features I list above, and the sound quality will be a huge step forward with them as a result. Happy to chat options with you over PM.
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I took these past few 'stay at home' years to upgrade, bit by bit, until main/office/garage-shop systems were all upgraded.
Began with wanting a long tonearm. Led to a TT with 3 tonearms, proper mono listening for the first time, and essentially all vinyl.
However, I own a heck of a lot of CDs and SACDs, and I started a quest for a better sounding SACD/CD player.
I went thru 9 different players until I settled on my Sony xa5400es
I went thru a re-discovery process, opposite of vinyl re-discovery, it put new life in all my existing CDs and I am buying used CDs occassionally without hesitation. after R2R tape, vinyl is preferred, but my CDs sound better than ever!
Do It.
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tomcy6
I must agree with you. I am interviewing Amps and Receivers currently and when you walk into a store and they can't play something that you know well...
I have always taken in my own music and now all they want to do is stream and they can't do that correctly. One store actually didn't know how to change sources. I wanted to be listening to something from Steinway & Bros. studio recordings and I was hearing VOCALS. This was the Oldest and best So-CAlled Hi-End store in Denver. Another had the ability to play disks if you consider an Xbox a suitable transport device. I am thinking if I want to look for new equipment I will have to drive or fly to Albuquerque or Salt Lake City because Denver HAS NOTHING to offer. Of course, this hilly billy town never did have any class.
But back to your comment. I know of a lot of offerings that are not readily available. Possibly they will have one from the same musician but not the album you want to hear. That is unless you want to listen to Youtube. Then there are issues with the providers. Amazon music likes playing the ignorant game of not providing consistent service if you use something other than Firefox for a web browser. If places like that can't grow up...
Then there are the bit rates of the different services. I believe that 16/48 should be a minimum even for the free users and then when looking at what is offered, not everything is offered at higher quality bitrates. I know this is improving but still lacks hugely.
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@jasonbourne52 +1
that is a great analogy. I actively dislike reading on a tablet
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@cey +1: it is a joy to have a nice collection of LPs and CDs and being able to select at leisure something to listen to! Streaming is to music as is reading a book on a screen! I'd rather hold and read a physical book.
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With streaming, artists (but a comparatively few) get paid fractions of what they get from physical sales. That alone keeps me from going into streaming.
Also I find a well-mastered CD sounds well enough. It may be an unpopular opinion here but for me at least there is a line I‘m happy with not crossing. There‘s always better, so I prefer to listen to a sound that already is great and focus on the music itself.
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Another CDT 6000 user. I find its sound quality is excellent. I tried Tidal for several years it was very good. However I was really paying to hear music which 95% of the time I already had on CD.
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tomcy6,
where have you been Buddy lot of the new CDs are coming out on 24/96 now, so the recording quality is very good.
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As an audiophile I have a PS audio PST and can tell you that it sounds fantastic.
Everybody says : " Is that a CD playing ? Whow"
All you need is cd-quality and a good system
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+1 soix
SQ better than CD in high res flac files. ‘Or the same if in the same resolution.”per @ghdprentice Some refute this. Each to their own.
And there’s the equivalent of surfing the web but with music on steroids.
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but I have a hard time seeing a commensurate increase in sound quality from a good DAC/streaming setup to a $5k CD setup.
@tylermunns I did too until I actually got my dedicated streamer up and running. My streaming quality now far surpasses that of playing CDs. Not even close.
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Cdt600 is a fine transport.
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Understanding that sometimes price may not be an issue, $4,000 seems like a lot of money.
I get these insane expenditures on analog gear because it’s the nature of the beast.
A $1,000 cable. Hmmmm….
Others may be able to provide cogent arguments to the contrary, but I have a hard time seeing a commensurate increase in sound quality from a good DAC/streaming setup to a $5k CD setup.
Seems like, as you noted, ripping your CDs and rockin’ the DAC/streaming setup would be totally fair.
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I purchased the Audiolab CDT 6000 also.
No regrets. Sounds great. Not going to start down the streaming hole at the moment. Lots of good music in house. CDs and vinyl. Less wear and tear on cartridge too.
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Hello,
I think everyone should have a nice DAC and streamer. Great way to listen to an absurd amount of great music. If you do have a nice DAC then adding a Cambridge CD transport for $600-$700 is not a big deal. I do have some titles that are not streamed or not streaming on the services I use. Also, There are different recordings or presses if you like of the same album. I just ordered a used 20th anniversary edition of Pink Floyd DSOTM. I heard it is supposed to be good. Just another way to enjoy the music that might not be out there. Maybe your Cd/ Setup sounds different because of the player or the cables that are connected. I have a really nice DAC/ Streamer but that doesn’t let me play Tommy Who or Paul Simon in 5 channel surround off of the SACD player. Just another avenue to enjoy this great hobby.
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The reason is obvious and it’s totally worth it. Look towards Japanese issued CDs. The library is huge with a lot of rare masterpieces. The quality is amazing. Also it’s good investment. Recently i was looking for Japanese Sony issue of “The Wall” album and I couldn’t buy it lower than $50. Couple years ago the price was around 30. German staff also could be very good, a specially Hybrid multichannel 2+2+2 recording. Try labels like Dabringhaus und Grimm. The SQ is truly amazing.
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….or my internet decides to quit…
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I just bought an Audiolab 6000CDT last year and I probably use it 20-25% of the time. I have many CD’s and LP’s that aren’t on any streaming services.
You ever hear of “ The Incredible Broadside Brass Bed Band? LOL, I didn’t think so😁
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“Why go to a fine restaurant when you can just stick something in the microwave? Why go to the park and fly a kite, when you can just pop a pill?”
Cosmo Kramer
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