Why are People Dumping their Audio Research Gear and What Does it Say about them?

ARC has been saved. The new owner’s name is revealed tomorrow. 
 

https://trackingangle.com/features/audio-research-corporation-saved-restructured-company-remains-in-maple-grove-mn-at-least-for-now

@pcrhkr 

It’s already done. Audio Research has been purchased and the new owner will be formally disclosed tomorrow.

After turning on the REF6SE I have to decide whether to fire up the pair of VT-150 SEs (1995, GE6550s, Telefunken E88CCs) or the pair of REF160M MKIIs (2023 KT150s, 6H30s). Both designs have spectacular sound quality. Both very well built. 

For me it started with the SP3a and a D76 (1975).

Reliable sources state that on Monday, the new owner(s) will be announced. Meanwhile, business as usual.

How do you know that people are dumping their gear?

Conrad Johnson went through the same thing several years back. I suspect the same will happen with Audio Research.  The company will be bought out and people will still be able to get them. There are electronics Engineers, technicians capable are all over the United States that can repair them.  I would not run away so fast. You might be able to get a real deal on a fine gear made to last a lifetime. 

I love my ARC REF6, and wouldn't sell it even if ARC closed their doors.  I'd hold onto it until it died.  Of course, sometimes I wish that I had gotten a solid state pre, just so I didn't have to be concerned about tube reliability, but it would have to sound better than my REF6, and I am not sure what that pre would be or how much it would be.  But ARC is too good a company with excellent reputation and brand recognition to let fade away.  The article on TrackingAngle.com is very positive news.

Audio research build quality is crap vs what it used to be ,the Ref stuff is very good 

this is why they went bankrupt ,they are now owned by anew influx of owners and $$ they were living off their reputation way to long , McIntosh another abuser 

inside parts quality leaves a lot to be desired ,great examples of what moderation can do to make them much better .

passlabs,  Luxman and many others put much better parts quality in which gives you much more for your monies .having owned a Audiostore , and in Audio over 40 years .I look at the build quality now before buying anything ,I think others too hav3 the right to know .This too applies to Loudspeakers inside Rarely do you see the critical Xover parts quality ,Why because the vast majority use average parts at best ,many times capacitirs from China ,and ceramic resistors which IMO are crap 

ho to humble homemade Hifi just to see capacitor  ratings , 

@bdp24.....absolutely.+..Aavik, Norma, Audio Hungary...Lots of great German and let's not forget the beautiful gear from Italy.....and many others. There's an awful big selection out there in the marketplace..

@mbmi: One of them being UK-based EAR-Yoshino, electronics featuring the design genius of the late Tim de Paravicini (Pink Floyd Studios, Water Lily Records, The Mastering Lab---where Doug Sax did his work, Mobile Fidelity).

There’s Too many European Mfger’s that make Amplifiers that are much more musical in the same ARC price range....and of course they’re going to tell you that they are going to " stay in business". :<)    If they told you they were going OUT.....you'd see alot more dumping.. Believe it when it’s a fact !  I wish them luck. No one wants to see an established Mfger in 2 channel hi-fi go bankrupt. It's not good for entire industry.

While some (many? most?) ARC owners never have a problem with any of their products, their designs are well known to have a couple of design weaknesses, at least in terms of product reliability:

1- ARC doesn’t fuse the output tubes in their power amps (they maintain fuses degrade sound quality), instead using sacrificial resistors and related electronic components to protect the rest of the amplifier when a tube implodes. When that happens, the owner has to not only replace the tube, but repair the amp. That cost can add up. They also install those tubes into tube sockets mounted on circuit boards rather than the amp’s metal chassis. Brooks Berdan always had a lot of traded-in ARC power amps in his used racks, all with scorched circuit boards. Those trade-ins were replaced with products from the amplifier companies Brooks chose to sell: VTL, Jadis, and Music Reference. Brooks himself also owned an Atma-Sphere amp or two.

2- ARC uses electronic parts under-rated for the voltages they see. When I turned on my new SP-3, the incoming voltage rush immediately blew the first resistor in the circuit. Roger Modjeski repaired a lot of ARC pieces when he started in the electronic repair field while still in high school (Bill Johnson owned and operated a repair shop before starting his first company---Electronic Industries, which he first sold then bought back from Peploe), so when he started designing and building his Music Reference electronics he intentionally used parts rated at ten times the voltages the parts would ever see. Because of that practice---as well as the inherent stability of Roger’s circuits---MR products are renown for their unusually high reliability. Do they sound as good as those of ARC? That’s up to you to decide.

The Music Reference RM-200 power amp has been Michael Fremer’s reference "budget" priced (of course Mike’s definition of "budget" differs from many of ours ;-) tube amp for a quarter century. In that time frame, how many ARC New! Improved! designs have ARC aficionados seen come and go? In that quarter century the RM-200 underwent only one design change---to Mk.2 status. No constant product introduction/SE revision/model replacement merry-go-round for Music Reference. Just buy them (I just last night snapped up an RM-5 Mk.IV pre-amp. Okay, IT was revised a number of times ;-), install them in your system, sit back and listen to the music, and be happy.

Ralph Karsten at Atma-Sphere, rather than constantly replacing models with new ones every coupla years, keeps his designs available for a looonnng time, offering updates---instead of new models---every few years. His MP-1 and MP-3 pre-amps have been in production for over 30 years! In those 30 years, how many ARC pre-amps have been introduced, improved, then discontinued and replaced? Karsten incrementally improves each model---offering updates at moderate cost, resulting in greater long-term value for the owners of his gear. That’s the approach I prefer. And you?

While I have asoft spot for ARC having owned some of their monoblocks, preamps, and a balanced line driver, the fact is these components when they go wrong can be very expensive to fix, and outside of the factory itself, its not easy to find qualified techs to fix these components. Imagineif the factory no longer is there to support the product….

See TrackingAngle.com to read about ARC survival in the form of a new Audio Research Corporation.

Apparently a ‘white knight’ has stepped in and rescued the company! This is certainly welcome news. No word on who stepped up to the plate, but I wish them well.

is the price of admission to great listening, do it...dol it now. Hopefully there will be some great deals with ARC equipment to ease me into my retirement listening years that I have left. Thank you Prentice for sharing your experience.

jaym759  I couldn't agree more with jhdprentice...retirement is an opportunity to put your well earned bucks into a great sound system! I have unwavering loyalty to ARC and in fact looking to upgrade some of my current ARC stuff. If ponying up

It’s not stock, not sure what the point would be. Plenty of spares in circulation and upgrades abound in the market. 

I really doubt any number of people (consumers who own the gear) are "dumping" gear because there is something going on with the manufacturer. Normal people don't follow such things about the companies they have bought gear from and would never care. Sounds as stupid as my mom following news on KitchenAid every day because she bought a blender some years ago. Might be a form of insanity. Might want to seek medical assistance from a mental health professional :-) 

Potential for a lot of sales 'midst our lot.....but, buyer beware, doth thou buy a block of poop....*L*

Don't have any grudge nor glee re ARC, but given the feedback over this 'event'...🤷‍♂️....

Place your bets... :)

In audio, it seems that a manufacturer gets one chance to do well, and that’s it.

Back in the 90s I had an Audio Research SP-9 preamp. It was not particularly good: details were obscured by the noise floor, and there was little depth to the soundstage. Its tonality was hard and neutral--certainly not warmish. Also, I could hear crosstalk among the inputs. I kept it for a couple of months, then traded it back in to the dealer for a much better product (not by ARC).

Audio Research may make better products today. But I’ll never go there again. Don’t know, don’t care.

Love Audio Research gear. This is one manufacturer that makes gear sound as good as it looks! As far as letting go, (i would prefer these words as opposed to dumping) and it is more likely out of curiosity to try something else. How many audiophiles put together a new system only to regret letting go of their previous gear. This happens, but not in every case.

I am listening to an all ARC Reference system as I type this. It is the most incredible system I have ever heard (and I have heard dozens of much more expensive systems over the decades) and amazes me daily how magical and musical it is.

It took me nearly fifty years to be able to afford it and after listening to it for over three thousand hours still have a very hard time dragging myself away every single night.

In my retirement it is the most valued possession and happiest that I spent the thousands of hours and dollars it took to getting here.

Audio research runs their tubes especially hard and they need to be replaced more frequently. And many say they sound like solid state.

I was close to buying one but it doesn’t work well with home theater due to heavy tubes use.

They were priced on the hi side. And now with all the dealers involved and reluctance by dealers to take trade-ins, used prices Will be very depressed. Long-term servicing a product is now a question. Someone pays $15,000 for A preamp and then 4 years from now something doesn’t work properly and then you worry about servicing and warranty it’s a death spiral it’s a financial mess nobody’s gonna wanna buy this company.

So happy I never bought one of these. And this is just the beginning for other hi-fi dealers and manufacturers. Financing costs are going a lot higher and 4 to 5% and even higher it’s very difficult to manage inventory 

Says more about the seller. Many people emotionally overreact when a negative event/issue occurs.

they are definitely not close to going out of business. It could change any day, but as of now, that's NOT the case

Not sure where you are getting your information. Several insiders have posted here and on other forums that there are several private equity firms looking to buy.

stringreen

6,260 posts

05-08-2023 at 08:49pm 

what I heard was that they were going out of business....gone

You would have to slash the prices by 50% 5 times before it becomes affordable to an average middle class audio enthusiast. So pretty much never 

If anyone wants to dump their ARC gear for say, $20, I'm all ears.

I have an ARC SP11 MkII and a VS110. Neither of them are going anywhere. 

ARC's reputation for quality and durability rather speaks for itself. There aren't many brands that are so sought after on the aftermarket... And should the worst happen, and ARC sinks, their gear is serviceable by competent techs. Schematics are easily available on-line. 

"Don't panic." - Douglas Adams

Happy listening.

A favor, please point me to the dump ads.  I want some

Have all ARC gear and not letting it go anywhere.  Not fancy ARC gear but older and still supported by ARC.  When I heard the news, I was looking for deals to maybe upgrade.

Just a question on this topic.

If AR does go under, What are the people who have theirs equipment supposed to do in case of repair?

There have been a few videos outing AR build quality toss that in with the financial issues and I don't blame anyone for dumping them. If wanting AR buy older AR.

I'm a close watcher of the brand and it's secondary market. I'm seeing neither greater selling nor price reductions on the ask.  I'm sure the bid is down-  bidders use bad news to beat down the price. 

One thing that concerns me is repairs/upgrades. It is 8 months to get into the ARC cue for a refresh or a repair. An owner who wants his Reference unit certified by ARC has a LONG wait before he has his baby working again. Let's say that same guy needs to sell his let's say Ref 5SE but he had JoBloStereo do some repairs. A prudent buyer would discount the unit. Now it's a $2500 preamp and not a 5K preamp. That will indeed depress prices.

I "inherited" a VT130 that was blowing up screening resistors. ARC put me in line last August and I'm STILL waiting for the RMA from Mr.Christenson.  Now if I HAD to sell it (death divorce debt) it's not a 3K amp it's a 1K amp. Maybe a $500 amp. 

There is always the panic seller- and the almost out of warranty seller. And the broke seller. All these guys depress value. That's the way the free market works. 

Curious where this mass dump is happening. 
 

If I owned any AR gear I would certainly not be getting rid of it. It’s tube gear, which is ridiculously simple to repair. 
 

Consider other gear that became unavailable, which went up in value once it was no longer available. The Oppo player is a recent example. 
 

Look at gear from the past. The Marantz 7 and 10b tuner come to mind. 
 

History is filled with examples of gear that has gone up in value. 
 

Getting rid of the components would be silly if they were making you happy with their sonic presentation. 

Please, link to some of this supposed dumping?

I love a good dump ...

@speedthrills     Yeah.  Who's 'dumping'?   I'm keeping all mine, six pieces.

Uh, where do you see people "dumping" their ARC gear? Pls share with us? Its not on Agon, and it's not on any other site I visit either. Let me know if you see someone "dumping" their Reference 150 SE or REF 5 SE pls, I'll pay you a finders fee.

I switched to all ARC gear less than a year ago and wish I had done so several upgrades back. The idea of "flipping" this equipment has not crossed my mind since the news and I really can't imagine wanting anything more (I know, famous last words.)

Of note is one shabby email I received from a dealer who really slagged my ARC setup. He sent me a note about the receivership and then proceeded to tell me about the "truly superior" brand he represents. I guess some people think a negative sales approach works, but not for me, especially since he is now in my block sender list!

what I heard was that they were going out of business....gone

I suspect if Audio Research goes under(not a sure thing) given their reputation over decades their gear will be looked at and valued like the old Marantz gear, the ones made before Saul Marantz was forced to sell the company.

@ideal8592  @winoguy17  +1 to each of you. Could someone please post a link to the dump? I think I might know the same guy!

I wonder what Audio Research's agreement with audio dealers has as requirements.  I have seen my favorite store selling ARC demos AND they are selling demo equipment for VTL, Linn, Moon and others.  

I wonder if the sales are based on guidance for equipment on display, pricing guidance or product lifecycle considerations.  

After being seriously into McIntosh & Gryphon gear, I was absolutely blown away by a REF160s so I bought it and added a REF 6SE. Never going back. 
 

Good Luck ARC….!

I agree with @ideal8592   I will be pleased to take any ARC off of any of you if you want to dump it in my lap.  

From what I have seen, the prices are holding pretty well--at least they are mostly above what I can afford.  I did see a VT-100 up the road from me that is reasonable...I will give the owner a call.

Anyone wants to "dump" a pair of 610's or 750's on me for a few bucks, or a working D-150, give me a shout!

Cheers!

Dump away! I’ll happily buy any ARC gear for $1 or maybe more, subject to negotiation. 

Please feel free to dump ARC. I need a lot more of it :)

I personally am not seeing a lot of ARC product showing up for sale. I do not think anybody who owns and sells it are dumping the brand. That does not mean there are not issues. One of my Hi-Fi haunts did stop selling the product. Reasons given was lack of recognition of who they are, compounded by it being too expensive. So, people in that seller’s area passed on it and bought something from McIntosh instead. The second is the modern tube sound. 160m is an amp that has pristine voicing, a lot of people found it to be too analytical and sterile. I think that has been addressed with the new 160m mkII. The stereo 160 and 80 are reported to be more natural and organic sounding.

ARC has never been a company that designs their amps to be velvety and lush. Those that are looking for that I think are investing into something different. IMHO, I think they gone a little too far with emulating the accuracy of a solid-state amps, would like to see them allow a little romance back into their house sound. Like I remember the earlier models had. What is interesting is that they are not the only historic brand that does this. The current version of McIntosh 275 does not sound like the ones that were first released. They too are more accurate sounding versus sweet.