Where should the vocal image be?

doesnt a lot of how the music image come from the cd and how it was done ?

not all cd’s image the same, correct ?

maybe you or someone else can answer this .....but what piece of equipment and it could include speakers, is responsible for the imaging / soundstage ? reason i ask this is that you will see a listing for a piece of equipment / speakers and the seller will say in the listing that xx throws a huge soundstage and great imaging.

just curious.....

but what piece of equipment and it could include speakers, is responsible for the imaging / soundstage

I would venture to say it would be the speakers.  Then followed by the recordings.

Sometimes it is at a distance that appears beyond the speakers.

Let the recording and your system determine the near 'n far of the vocal image. It's part of the fun.

behind the speaker plane. :)

but this is extremely recording dependent.

All bets are off, unless you have your speakers set up optimally for your room and your listening position. Once your speaker and listening position are optimized, I think the recording choices made by the recording/mastering engineers is most responsible for "where" the vocals are placed.

I've got recordings that have to vocals in front of the plane of the speakers, in line with the plane of the speakers, and back from the plane of the speakers. However, I don't recall any that have the vocals right up in my face.

I spent quite a bit of time on my speaker placement and the overall sound quality, balance/bias, imaging, soundstage, etc., improved pretty dramatically from the effort.

 

but what piece of equipment and it could include speakers, is responsible for the imaging / soundstage

I would venture to say it would be the speakers. Then followed by the recordings.

Okay so a lot going on here. First you need two speakers. Not one. Not three. Two. Then they must be equidistant and symmetrical, or no imaging. Then if you want image focus and depth they need to be toed in quite a bit. The more toe in the deeper the stage.

Okay now you have set the stage, so to speak, for the rest. Even the very best speakers can only put out what they get in, so all your other components need to be capable of depth of stage.

Now assuming you got all that in place then it all depends on the recording. Last night I put on Sting The Dream of the Blue Turtles because my wife likes Sting. Only she didn’t like this one, not at all. Come to find it is because his voice is so far back. Plus this one sounds like he is in some kind of cavern or something. She couldn’t stand it. So I put on Ten Summoners Tales which is Sting and recorded very similar but not quite so far back. Like Turtles he is 7 ft back, Tales only 4-5 feet. Still she was complaining asking why he isn’t right in front of us like Mark Knopfler Brothers in Arms.

So there is a huge range, that once your system is up to snuff is entirely, completely, and all the way 100% determined by the recording.

But the system has to be there. A lot of them will present everything in your face, or way way back, or flat, or anywhere in between. The better the system the more it depends on the source material.

All good presentations I have heard have an image on or behind the speaker plane. With my system most recording appear 5-10ft behind the speakers to simulate depth of the soundstage.

It's could be quite subjective as I would prefer the vocal to be at least mid way between the listener and the speaker plane.  I understand this would trade off soundstage depth.  This leads to another related topic as would you prefer that "they are there" or "you are there."

4-5 feet behind the speaker plane.

Test Tracks:

Roger Waters Amused, Billy.

Chesky Jazz Audiophile Vol 2. #47

Don't blame me if you wet yourself.

Opus 3 test disc ; depth of image. And speakers typically with steep slopes and or drivers in series and other high negative FB gear or phase shift in the chain can destroy or diminish image depth. With the possible exception of Amused to Death, i wouldn’t look to a multi track recording with a reverb tank for a 3D imaging benchmark….

Jim

+1 for Chesky Jazz Audiophile Vol 2. #47

The entire Opus series of test recordings is also a great resource.

It’s could be quite subjective as I would prefer the vocal to be at least mid way between the listener and the speaker plane. I understand this would trade off soundstage depth. This leads to another related topic as would you prefer that "they are there" or "you are there."

What you "prefer" then, if you think about it, is a system that imposes your expectations on the music. Every time you impose your desires on a recording you necessarily detract from its fidelity. Think about it.

If you want a good reference for what your system should be doing, try the XLO Test CD, specifically the walk-around tracks. This was recorded in a bare room with two microphones and consists of nothing but Roger Skoff talking and walking around the room hitting a clavis (wood block) while telling you where he is in relation to the microphones.

If your system is dialed in it will be eerily apparent the room is exactly the size it is. The size of your room won’t even matter. Not if your system is good enough. When he says, "I am standing in the middle of the room" so many feet from the microphone you will hear his voice emanating from precisely that location. Then as he walks closer and closer guess what? Like he is right in front of you. He even goes past the microphones to stand behind them. This is the acid test. It is bizarre to hear as it does indeed sound as if he is behind you. In my system anyway.

This is what I’m talking about. Anyone says where something should be, more often than not has no idea. Only using a test CD specifically recorded this way can you have any hope of knowing where things are supposed to image with any specificity. All else is guesswork.

@millercarbon 

 Comments about toe in are off base. There is no “one size fits all” recommendation regarding soundstage depth and toe in. Not only is this very subjective, but there are many speaker manufacturers that say absolutely no toe in for their design. As a matter of fact, Reference 3a speakers need to fire directly into the room. Anything more than a minute amount of toe in ruins the tonal balance. And this is by design. 
 

So even though soundstage depth may be enhanced by severe toe in, many other parameters may suffer. This is an individual listener and speaker preference.

i was going to say the same thing regarding the speaker toe in, as some companies say not to .     Dali speakers would be one that i know of that require no toe in.

@ozzy62

As a matter of fact, Reference 3a speakers need to fire directly into the room. Anything more than a minute amount of toe in ruins the tonal balance. And this is by design.

 

So even though soundstage depth may be enhanced by severe toe in, many other parameters may suffer. This is an individual listener and speaker preference.

Good observation and needs to be emphasized, much ’depends’ on the specific speaker in question and the room/speaker relationship. Generalizations aren’t applicable in this type of scenario. Case by case approach is the way to proceed. Good topic!

Charles

@erik_squires

behind the speaker plane. :)

 

but this is extremely recording dependent.

Agreed 👍 When setting up my speakers, I always test their correct/best location based on the main singer being behind the speakers and/or ’into’ and ’within’ the soundstage.

But, as Eric stated, depends on the recording. Nora Jones recordings often frustrate me (as example), as her voice is typically too forward for my taste. 

But, as Eric stated, depends on the recording. 

i mentioned this in the beginning but i see Eric gets the credit

1) depends on the type and model of speakers

2) do not toe in certain speakers, especially Dali's

3) depends on the recordings, too many variables to even begin to discuss regarding this.

Credit on Audiogon really doesn't mean anything, people will still misspell your name even when it is right in front of them. 😂

LOL, sorry Erik

I have used the formulas presented in this link and slight variations or tweaks to enhance imaging and sound stage. The addition of room treatments have helped also.

Good jumping off spot and you will get to your goal on vocal imaging.

 http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php

Dependent upon speakers, rest of system, toe in, room and room treatments, recording. But generally, I've heard center image vocals as mostly in or behind plane of speakers, only hard panned vocals sometimes extend in front of speaker. This has been a constant with box, open baffle and horn speakers.

The XLO disc is good for that image placement track.

I like the voice or the performers voice in the middle of my speakers and 2 feet in front of my speakers . I will be listening 6.5 ft distance from the Speakers.I also believe it depends on the recording and the system set up.

@ozzy62 

No No No …. The Delphic Orifice Oracle has spoken … Apparently you need to

“Think About It”

In the main it will vary with disparate speaker design, and in the recording itself as @erik_squires originally commented on, variations in room treatment may also play a influencing role.

In a same hypothetical room you are going to illicit variation using say Harbeth 30.1 compared to Magneplaners to Duevel Sirius / Mbl’s

The Stereophile test CDs also have good recordings of someone walking around the soundstage and stating his position. If your system isn't able to properly place him, something in your setup is off. Yes, more recordings than not will place vocals between or behind the line between the speakers, so that will be most commonly heard across recordings, but it shouldn't always be so. Great systems will place the vocals forward if that's what's on the recording. Cheers,

Spencer

ozzy62-

 miller carbon, Comments about toe in are off base. There is no “one size fits all” recommendation regarding soundstage depth and toe in. 

ozzy62, Your digs are off base. Never said "one size fits all" and as for the other stuff my comments are directed at image depth. Because that is the subject.

Odd you go so far astray from the topic for no reason other than to bash me. Probably you do the same to others, not reading them fairly either. Who knows? I don't usually pay attention to you enough to say for sure. 

Oh wait, what's this?

soundstage depth may be enhanced by severe toe in,

So my comments are off base, but when you say the same that's just fine? Right. Got it. Thanks!

Some one made the comment about room acoustics.  In my observations, room acoustic improvements make changes in the plane you apply them on.

To improve depth, focus on diffusion behind the speaker and listener. Width, absorption and diffusion to the sides. Height?  Floor and ceiling.

I think most images are based on the recording. But I personally prefer a center image a little behind and between the speakers.

ozzy

As already pointed out, many factors affect this: recording, system, room, positioning, etc.  There is no single "right" or "wrong" answer as to where the soundstage should begin and end.  Many people, I among them, appreciate layering, which is enhanced with a deep soundstage, wherever the front plane of that soundstage may start.  Very broadly speaking, the more you pull your speakers out from the wall behind them, the more likely you are to achieve front-back depth of soundstage.

With the Spatials I own the center image is always behind the speakers. How far behind depends on the recording. Some tracks it's a couple feet behind, other tracks it's way back there. IMO this is why OB is great for smaller rooms and nearfield listening, as it creates more distance between listener and center image. Not necessarily an intimate presentation, however, if that's what one prefers.

When I play Roger Waters' Amused to Death album the barking dog at the beginning is to my right or 9 feet in front of the speakers and the old man speaking is to my left about 7-8 feet in front of the speakers.  That is just freaky.  I prefer the musicians in front of me where I can keep an eye on them.  Most of the time the images are between  just in front of the speakers to beyond the back wall (if I have the lights out) and can extend past the speakers left and right.  For me, the soundstage grows bigger with the lights out.

MC

Does SS depth really matter once you’ve screwed up everything else by using the speakers counter to their design?

Oh and you did allude to “one size fits all”. It’s the same with all your posts. “If you want audio nirvana, this is the only way” attitude is predictable but tiresome.

"Where should the vocal image be?

1. On the same plane as the speakers.

2. About mid way between the listener and the speakers plane.

3. Right up to the listener."

Whatever the musical material dictates. To me the in audiophilia often touted behind-the-plane-of-the-speakers presentation lacks overall immediacy, hereby loosing the ability of contrasting the source material properly. The converse scenario, albeit less frequent to my ears, is hardly desirable either; one is too stale and polite, the other too insisting and fatiguing even. Contrary to what many may expect though immediacy doesn't necessarily equate into "up front," but ideally alludes to a sense of presence - quite vital for music to come alive, as I see it. 

Height of presentation hasn't been mentioned, it seems, but here I'm not thinking of raising the acoustic center as much as the acoustic field from which it emanates. A taller speaker plane appears less restricted and thus also supports contrast of presentation. 

@phusis +Exactly what you said about immediacy and presence! This is exactly what I look for in music reproduction!

I seek vocals emanating from head/mouth attached to body at natural height. Without this one can't have believable illusion of performers in room.

Add sense of presence and human size images together, what you get is involving listen.

The music comes  relatively to the recording, for me not  between the speakers...

Most of the times in almost good jazz or classical recording, the image has depth and is nor between the speakers , nor directly in front of me, but mostly like in an INTIMATE  headphone, BUT  OUT of my head filling the room and sometimes, relative to the recording beside me and in some rare case behind  my head...

ozzy62, Please point out where I "alluded". Or is this "allusion" an illusion of your delusion?

OP I hope you found a baseline from all this???????????

…
Then if you want image focus and depth they need to be toed in quite a bit. The more toe in the deeper the stage.
​​​​​​….

Well toe makes little difference in depth on my speakers.
The distance top back and side walls however make a lot of difference.

I suspect that the horizontal dispersion pattern has a role on toe needed?
Maybe those Moab’s need more than a good speakers requires?
(For the OP - It is definitely worth playing with the toe-in/toe-out though.)

Maybe 10-15 years ago I started moving the speakers around and go a magical spot where the sound was ~5 feet behind the wall.

Dragged the Mrs into the room, and she said she had never heard speakers sounding like they came from outside of the room, and also was distressed because she could not hear the speakers themselves as separate things.
She asked, “How does it work to make them sound like they are not there?”… I said, “It’s PFM”.

My answer is 1.5; somewhere between:

1. On the same plane as the speakers.

2. About mid way between the listener and the speakers plane.

Depends on the recording, though.

Usually sounds behind and midway between the speakers, mid-height too. 

Mike

In front of the front omni's with a believable spread.  But as Erik points out, program dependent.

Done it before, just upgrading my means currently.

Turn it over to the 'bots, they've nothing else to do for me.... ;)

BEHIND

Vocalists at proper scale (ie the visual auditory image is human scale or slightly larger) should be behind the plane. Exaggerated scale or vocals that are too forward indicate peaks in high-frequencies and can cause destruction of a 3d stereo image.

Agree with many here who say the recording, etc. are influential. Also, agree that test tracks are invaluable for calibrating a system. 
 

(not to get involved with the toe-in discussion, but the "mid channel" of the stereo signal (where many vocals live) often emanates from the side of drivers and LESS toe-in can increase the mid channel content, like vocals. So toe-in and speaker position definitely are very important to vocal depth.)

Personally, I prefer they be on someone else's stereo. LOL

OP I hope you found a baseline from all this???????????

I think one thing we can agree on is that there are a few variables.  Once you have an optimal setting, most likely it's the recording that dictates where the vocal image will be placed on the soundstage.

Most people dont realize the degree to which acoustic and psycho-acoustic dictate everything and the manys way which you can use it at will in a room...

It is impossible to understand without playing with active mechanical control and not only passive materials treatment...

For example to reach this " Headphone effect out of my head" i spoke above in my post above , i was using the frontwave law of Has and Helmhotlz resonators and i used an acoustic wood screen (with some absorbing and diffusing parts) in two parts with a variable angle, i placed it between my back and the two oriented speakers which are controlled by the resonators dyssimetrically for each of my ears using in this way Has law of the first wavefront differently for each one of my ears......

Then when i listen it has the intimate effect of headphone but filling my room at the same time like if it was just outside my head...Difficult to describe...In some recording i can hear voices or instruments even behind my back but generally the sound had the depth out of the speakers floating almost all along the width of the room just outside my screen...

i placed forever my 7 pairs of headphone in a drawer...Not one is on par.... 😁😊

I only wrote this to advise people to READ about acoustic...Not about upgrade...