Where’s My Weakest Link?

That’s it? That’s your "system"? 

What speaker cable, interconnects, power cords are you using?
What fuses, outlets, power conditioner?
What acoustics? Do you have any HFT? ECT? TC? Cones? Rack? Shelf???

Room acoustics - GIK

Mine was my room. After adding 12 Large bass traps, a few home made absorption panels and tweaking the subs the room is now much better. The end result is a completely different sound. Have to admit I was skeptical at first but I was stunned by the change.

@millercarbon. 

I obviously have interconnects but they are generic, couldn't even give you a brand. Monster speaker wire. And lets consider the rest “generic” due to a lack of knowledge. Do you find that changing one of these items can improve a system more than improving what I listed? 

Brace yourself. You have unleashed everything.

FWIW during the early 1980’s I purchased a Carver C-4000 preamplifier, which included sonic holography as well as some of the other functions that are provided by your C-16, while selling for a considerably higher price than the C-16 (which I believe was introduced toward the end of that decade).

After a few years I replaced the C-4000 with a Mark Levinson ML-1, which resulted in a truly "night and day" sonic improvement. So after doing a bit of research on your other components I suspect that your preamp is the weakest link.

If after replacing the C-16 you want to retain the sonic holography feature you should be able to find a C-9 at very low cost.  The C-9 provides only that function and is used in conjunction with a separate preamp. I didn’t miss that function at all, btw, after I started using the ML-1.

Also, I believe your power amp is nearly 20 years old, and so it might be approaching the point at which significant degradation of the capacitors in its power supply will be occurring, if that has not already started to occur. Its present market value appears at best to be in the vicinity of only $500, so when and if its electrical condition seems to become an issue replacing it with something else, rather than having it overhauled, would seem to be in order.

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al

The Node 2i. 

@otterbein  - I suspect Al is correct. The Carver pre-amp would be the first component in your system that I would consider replacing. Again, if you use, and like, the sonic holography feature, you could look for a free-standing Sonic Holography processor to add back into your system. Also, considering the age of your amp, you might want to consider having the caps replaced for many more years of reliable enjoyment.

If you want to consider a more radical change, you might consider a nice quality integrated amp to replace both your pre-amp and amp. There is a Rega Elicit-R for sale now on A-goN for $1175. That's the lowest price I've ever seen for this model (which I own). And there is a Rega Elex-R (Less power than the Elicit-R) for only $699, but it has some scratches on the top cover plate. Anyway, both of these units would be nice simple replacements for both your pre-amp and amp, and provide a remote. Just another option.....

Enjoy the search. Don't get overwhelmed with the options. You have a nice, simple system. If you like the simplicity, stay that course and just upgrade one or two of the components. 

You mention your cables are "generic" like Amazon Basics generic, or some such? Cables can make ALL the difference. You don't have to spend thousands (though you could). A good start is power. Like MC said, do your outlets, easy and relatively cheap. Then power cables. Lot's of options. Look within your budget, check the a-gon ads etc. Then look at your speaker cables, same thing. Last interconnects. See what you wind up with. Keep in mind cables are a slippery slope. Once you have a set of cables that work well, then think about maybe upgrading components. Then, if you want from there, tweaks. And yes, the room can absolutely be everything. Very important. 

@almarg has presented some very relevant facts. The OP has aging components that should be addressed first. Plus, I doubt that his amp and preamp are revealing enough to warrant adding tweaks such as aftermarket outlets and power. 
Building the foundation of the system should come first. As stated earlier, an integrated amp would be a good way to go.

Don’t replace the Node 2i, it is very nice little streamer that would cost three times its cost to exceed. If anything, in the future you might consider adding a stand alone DAC, but again, multiples of its cost for any real benefit.

There are other things to consider first.  After any basic (and needed) hardware changes, I would buy Canare 4s11 speaker cables and Canare L-4E6S interconnects from a vendor such as Markertek or Redco.  The total for the above very nice cables would be very reasonable cost.

Between your ears. Seriously! Put yourself in a better mood and your system will sound better. Otherwise, get two subwoofers and a 2 way crossover.

You simply aren't using the right fuse - it's the only thing holding your system back from it's full potential.

Honestly, pound for pound putting effort into room acoustic treatment will likely make the biggest difference. I wouldn't start making gear changes before getting the room right first.

I think you should replace your wire with at least one step up the quality ladder. Something like Blue Jean Cable would make a noticeable improvement. 

There is always a weakest link. The problem is the links are molecules, and run from the wire on the other side of the drop line ahead of the breaker panel to the air on the other side of the speaker cone, to the walls that contain the air and even beyond that. That’s a lot of links!

I obviously have interconnects but they are generic, couldn't even give you a brand. Monster speaker wire. And lets consider the rest “generic” due to a lack of knowledge. Do you find that changing one of these items can improve a system more than improving what I listed?

Yes. Totally. Without a doubt. 

The three most satisfying systems I ever heard (besides my own current one) https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 were all budget systems done for $1200 to $2500. The budget on each of those included as much for wire as for speakers. Nobody gets it because nobody does it but I have- you put equal parts of money into each part of the system because every single part of the system matters just as much as every other part. So for that one simple misapprehension they run around changing the components everyone else is telling them matters, never getting there. Because they miss out on what really matters, which is everything.

The importance of wire was proven to me years ago. First with a dealer who I was friends with and let me home audition all kinds of stuff I could never afford, and try out even more stuff at his place. One time I come over and he plays some music on what looked like the same system as last time. Only now it sounds insanely better. WTF? He changed the speaker cables, interconnects, power cords, and conditioner. He then tells me these things, basically all just wire, cost TWICE as much as the speakers, amp and source- together!

So when I put those budget systems together I allocate equal amounts for wire as speakers, amp, and source. Knowing what I have learned since I now also allocate equal amounts for what I call tweaks and accessories. So a $5k system is $1k each for speakers, amp, source, wire, tweaks.

This right here puts most audiophools into a seizure. Yet it is conservative. Could easily put twice into wire. Its been demonstrated. Proven. Not conjecture. Fact. Not theory. 

**This is not meant to be taken literally! You cannot simply throw money at the problem. It is assumed you will take the time to do the research and audition and select the best performance value for the money.**

But I don't mean to focus on wire. Look at my first post. Look up everything on the list. TC, HFT, ECT, etc. Only putting so much emphasis on wire because you said Monster, which is basically zip cord and totally the weak link in your system, which is what you asked to know.

@otterbein,

As others have pointed out, replace the aging electronics before you spend your money on anything else. Above all, take notes from all the advise here, summarize, research and make your next purchase.

The node 2i is a good budget streamer, it’s performance can be improved by upgrading to better Ethernet / power cord and finally an outboard DAC....this should be your last step after you address the preamp/amp and rest of the cabling in your system. Also look at room acoustics panels from GIK.

Stick with basics before you go crazy with rest of the tweaks.

+1 Lowrider

The Carver pre-amp needs to go no doubt. I had same pre-amp. Replaced on advice of another Agoner at the time with Audio Research sp16 and bingo....huge improvement in every way.

Any good quality tube pre-amp should work well with that amp’s 100kohm input impedance. Or for something SS maybe consider a Benchmark pre/DAC combo unit. That is likely a step up from the DAC in the Bluesound as well.

You don’t mention using a turntable so no need for phono input into pre-amp.

After that, maybe the amp goes too if age/operating condition is in fact an immediate problem.

If pre-amp and amp must go, if it were me, I would strongly consider a good modern hybrid integrated amp along the lines of Rogue Pharoah.   You could then experiment with an external DAC with the Bluesound later if you felt any need.

Lot's of choices but probably time to start seriously considering replacing that older gear.

Good luck.

I thought maybe the weakest link was the wire bringing AC power to the room. So I went under the house and pasted all the 30 feet or so I was able to get at. It was indeed impressive. Then I opened my speakers and pasted the few feet from the binding posts to the drivers. The improvement was so much more I could hardly believe it. 

Clearly the internal speaker wire was a weaker link than the power wire. It was just impossible to know until it was tried and compared. 

Both improvements together cost less than $300. There is absolutely no component on the market new or used for less than ten times that amount that would provide this much improvement. Yet there are guys here who "think" that "probably" the stuff the OP has is "aging" and so they guess it should be the first to go.

By that logic I would have to throw out the speakers I just heard sound so wonderful. They are after all 20 years old and so the caps are "aging" and must be the weak link. 

This would all be hilarious were it not for the fact the OP might actually rely on some of this truly awful "logic".

Anybody who recommends changing the wiring in the speakers before upgrading a low cost preamp that is generations old is giving advice that is not logical. Many advances in technology since Carver's preamp.

I'll agree that adding a dedicated line should be one of the first upgrades to a system.

Thanks all, it sounds like the amp/pre amp need to go. I will check out the Rega options. Does anyone have experience with  the Yamaha A-S801 Integrated Amplifier?

Anybody who recommends changing the wiring in the speakers before upgrading a low cost preamp that is generations old is giving advice that is not logical. Many advances in technology since Carver's preamp.

Anybody?

I'll agree that adding a dedicated line should be one of the first upgrades to a system.

Seriously??!

Sorry, but the snark isn't nearly so effective when used on someone who actually knows what he's talking about. Its my biggest complaint with this site. Not the dozen or so who clog it up with pages of indecipherable blather. Not the ones who don't have a clue. The ones who pretend to know and try and pass themselves off as experienced when in fact they really have only the slightest tiniest bit more than a clue. If that.

The fact is its not "anybody" making those recommendations. Its somebody with actual experience having tried and compared everything mentioned. Which is why I - not anybody, me- am NOT recommending a dedicated line. Easily the worst of all the suggestions made so far!

Unlike "anybody" I have actual experience with all these things. The ancient amp. The speaker cables. The dedicated line. I have done all these things. Actually done. Not read about. Not thought about. DONE!

Compared. Three different dedicated lines. More wires and mods than there is time to list. Its really sad to see anybody who hasn't done these things pretend to know more than somebody who has. Worse than sad. Pathetic.

...and the thread does it's regular organic evolution from trying to provide the OP with input to diatribes aimed at obtaining self validation of one's prowess in the hobby at all costs!  sigh

Easy_payments, I hate when that happens.
I usually just bite my tongue and try not to feed the bear.

Just one fact to add to the good other ones here:
I have a Node 2i and recently added an Orchid MHDT Tube R2R DAC. I now stream through the Orchid; I've noticed improvement. 

@noromance ...Well put @ 4/14 9:02  ;)
An innocent query unleashing the inevitable suggests the weak link is between the ears....

I learned this long ago....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKZtt2yEwfs

The movie illustrated this principal (and others!) obscurely, but succinctly...

OP, 

If you love the sound of your power amp and is not ready to part with it, try replacing the electrolytics as almarg suggested. You'll hear a difference. I just replaced the electrolytics of a c-j MF-2100 power amp, PF-R and PV-10AL preamps and am happy with the result. Can't speak for the Carver. 

I don’t get it, someone kindly asks for advice and is besieged with scolding lectures. Why do the agitated narcissistic flat screen “ generals” always bully people when an innocent question is asked? 

@needlebrush Unfortunately this forum often misses the mark on the comradery you’d expect amongst folks who share the same passion for audio and instead it becomes a venue for people to selfishly attempt to prove they are the smartest guy in the room. Even if someone has audio setup superpowers, why does one have to get those skills continuously re-validated for an eternity? Enough! Be nice, share, and remember....it’s not always all about you.

It is of no avail to change first probably any one of your electronic components...

Is it not stupid to change any electronic component of an audio system without having ever listen to it at his top potential peak before?

Believe it or not, it is precisely what most people do, advise by market ploy or masters know-it-all...

Personally I  think your electronics components one by one are already good....

Before upgrading anything by frustration or misplace urge to easily change anything, think about the way to improve simply your system, with simple, homemade materials or vey low cost materials....


I cannot describe here all I have done, but the general principle is linked to this:


The most important underestimated facts in audio are the controls of the 4 basic embeddings : mechanical, electrical, and the passive and active controls of the acoustical field of the room ... There are others dimensions but these 4 one are fundamentals...

I give indications to try in my virtual page and more on my thread....

Never listen first only to someone who only buy new things or sell them except for a precise technical problems, create with fun your own heaven, and you will discover the truth about audio:

Most of us we owns already a good audio system, the real question is not about the way to upgrade the design of an electronic component by buying a new improved one;
the real question is : Do I know from having heard it already, how my audio system, as it is now, behaves in an optimal controlled environment ?


After these sets of experiments in controls of the 4 embeddings, knowing how beautiful is really your actual audio system, knowing his positive and negative point better, then you will know what electronic component to change for improvement, and in half the case you will say to yourself, why changing anything? this audio system is holographic, natural, 3-d imaging and is almost perfect.... I know it is mine... 500 hundred dollars for dac, amplifier, speakers, and 500 hundred dollars of materials at very low costs....

By the way my audio systems components are not on a higher rung of the audio scale at all compared to yours... They are in the same range of quality/price...But the difference between their sound in a non controlled embeddings and in a controlled one is simply not comparable at all.... This is the reason of my post to you.... It is not money that gives Hi-fi, all modern gear are relatively well designed, the problem is they sound not so good and even bad in a non controlled environment... Simple...


Listen to your own creativity.... Read and think about....Experiments with your ears opened....It is fun....

For your precise question, it is impossible to know the answer before all the electronic components are rightfully embedded …. It is my experience.... Play with this and you will know with fun experiments that will transform completely your system....Knowing that save me much money....

I don’t get it, someone kindly asks for advice and is besieged with scolding lectures.

Some people just can't help themselves. 

In one post they'll berate others for hiding behind their screens and not acting in a way that they would in person.  In the next post they'll hide behind their screen and berate someone who is asking for help by telling them how dumb their question is while proclaiming how smart they are and how great their system is. 

Put simply, it's a lack of self esteem and insecurity.  People who suffer in this way look for things outside themselves to prop up their fragile egos.  Unfortunately it doesn't work, but that doesn't stop them from shouting "Look at me!  I'm the smartest/greatest and have the bestest toys!".  It's sad and pathetic.

Thank you all for your insight, opinions and physcoanalytical analysis of one another.

Given the age I would look first at the pre and amp, maybe consider an integrated with a good dac as that's the weakest link in the Node2i. It has a good interface and a lot of streaming options. 

Nice dig, Otterbein (-:.
I’m new to the thread and after being turned off by some of the rants here from the Usual Suspects, haven’t read all the posts, but my answer to your OP would be the DAC.  The Node 2i canbe made to sound a lot better as you experiment with different DACs.  I didn’t see a budget so Would withhold a more specific recommendation pending that.

The one bit of advice that I question is replacing power cords.  If the amp, pre-amp or whatever is quality equipment, WHY would the manufacturer then hobble its performance by putting an inadequate power cord on it?  It makes little sense to me that they would charge thousands of dollars for the electronics and then omit something like $100 for a good power cord.  I assume that they care about their reputation and want positive reviews vis-a-vis other manufacturers’ equipment, so it seems to me like a foolish economy to cut a corner when the extra expense to do it right isn’t all that much more.  What am I not understanding?

Sorry about the rant, but it does get tiresome to see people asking for help only to get slammed.

I'm not familiar with all your gear but know CJ makes good stuff.  Your source is probably the weak link.  What do you think? 

If you suspect that it is, adding an external DAC will help a little, replacing it with something better will help more.  I replaced Node 2 with a TEAC NT-505 which sounds much more "natural" (less digital, much bigger soundstage).  I had an Auralic Vega connected to the Node 2 and that sounded better than the Node 2 using its internal DAC.  The NT-505 was a significant and noticeable upgrade over the Node 2/Vega combo.  I was also considering a Lumin D2, but got a good deal on the TEAC and am happy I did.

@mahler123 do you have a favorite DAC in the $1000 range?

^^^^You can’t go wrong with Denafrips Ares II.  

https://www.denafrips.com/ares

Or mhdt Orchid.
A little more at $1200 but you get options to roll tubes and have it hot rodded by Grannyring right here.

otterbein.....pseudo-psychoanalytical....Maybe.....*L*

AKA cheap shots.....mho....;)

(I'm a ghost....the bullets hit Nothing) 

Otterbein 

I haven’t heard to many DACs in that range, but the Mytek Liberty and the Schiit DACs in that range would be high on my list.

if you buy used, perhaps a Benchmark or a Chord QTest.

All will be huge upgrade over the DAC in the Node2i.

I don’t know much about your speakers, and they may be an issue, but I can tell you for sure that your DAC could be significantly upgraded

I agree with millercarbon in that some decent cables (look at the opening price point Black Cat) and some rudimentary room treatments (first reflection points are a good starting point) before buying new components.

Dont take millercarbon too seriously. He has gone past drinking the Synergistic Research Koolaid; he now swims in it.

I dont know the Carver preamp but I have never liked anything I have heard made by Carver. Have not heard his new tube amps. 

All these ridiculous tweaks are pointless! There is no perfection and it cannot be obtained no matter how many insane tweaks you attempt. Second of all, just because someone’s perception that some bizarre off the wall tweak did something perceptible (subjective), does not mean that it will even be noticeable to someone else. My god, when do such persons ever relax and just enjoy the music! Constant tweaking and torquing this and that is absurd...unless you love to aggravate yourself to no end...I don’t get any of it. Lastly, I hardly even have the time to listen to my system as I’m considered "essential personnel" and therefore must go to work every day...I would never have the time to tweak this tweak that, nor would I want to. If something needed that much tweaking, then maybe just maybe that component just plain sucks to begin with...all my opinion....now take me to the gallows.....or behind the wood shed lol...🙄
Just a few examples....fuses?? Yea I’m going to open up a piece of expensive equipment and screw with the design of the piece that someone far more knowledgeable designed...ahhhhhh no....and most equipment clearly states somewhere, no user serviceable parts meaning don’t touch! I don’t feel the need to burn my house down. And another, raising cables off the floor! How ridiculous, unless you have microscopic hearing or the ears of a bat...lastly, a multi thousands of dollars rack is going to make an ounce of difference...mmm, yea ok... as long as your equipment is not sitting on something from ikea, I think you will be just fine. Lastly, obsessively tweaking the position of a cartridge to achieve some kind of perfect alignment when it does not exist. As soon as you move the freaking thing, you just changed another parameter duh! You get it close, close is about all you will ever achieve, plus every record you place down on that platter is different, so what is the use of obsessing. Life is too short, I’ll be dead before I ever achieve any thing remotely close to perfection, I’ll just listen to my music.

All these ridiculous tweaks are pointless!

Arrogance is not always wise.... :)

This thing that audiophile calls "tweaks" in fact is a misnomer for something way more essential to know and which is underestimated and most of the times not very well known...

All my " tweaks" gravitated around the many controls of the 4 embeddings of any audio system...Mechanical, electrical, and acoustical in a passive and active way...


Most people think they can judge , speakers, amplifier, or dac, or any new audio component, by simply put it in the linked chain and listening to it all out of the box... This is totally false...


This is the most important thing I ever discover in audio...

Most of the times those who speaks about "tweaks" speaks of that in a not too much enthusiastic way, like if these "tweaks" are only secondary means or methods and not so important way to improve the sound, compared to an upgrade....This is false....( I dont count the few "ignorabimus" that denigrate)


Most of you or at least a vast number of people owns an audio system probably already very good, but if they listen to it in non controlled environment , with no rightly prepared embeddings, most people will never know what their audio system is able to give in S.Q. never...


This is plain truth....Dont buy anything this year, think about that instead....

By the way all my controls means (tweaks) are very low cost, and mostly homemade....They totally transformed my system audibly and without doubt in a more than good audio system....

I’ll be dead before I ever achieve any thing remotely close to perfection,

The goal is not obsessive search for perfection, the goal is to rightly embed in his mechanical dimension (vibration-resonance) in his electrical grid, and transforming in a passive way and also with active means the acoustical field of the room....

This is not obsession this is a good job done in a systematic way.... This is simple small fine tuning engineering works …. Those obsessed are those who cannot controls their own negative emotions towards others opinions...

I don’t disagree about common place basic tweaking, the ones that have stood the test of time and are logical...like speaker positioning, using a protractor to align a cartridge ( getting it close or maybe closer), isolating a turntable (of course!), and using quality cables and interconnects (why would you not!). But there are some here professing this and that as if it’s the gospel, which it is not. To each their own, I prefer not to drive myself nuts, when there are already enough people that do so daily....
The things you mention above, I have already done, because they are smart things to do. I have an expensive, at least to me, power conditioner, a dedicated 12 gauge line from panel to living room, an upgraded copper outlet/receptacle, a turntable that is isolated on a dedicated shelf mounted to studs of which are affixed to a concrete wall, and a very stable support for my components made of wood. My speakers are positioned correctly, at least to my ears and hearing capability, my wires/ cables are all top notch, and they are routed away from power cables and or run perpendicular and not parallel. I think I've done enough. 

You want to hear something even crazier?? I recently bought a pair of tannoys priced at 6k, and to be honest? They don’t necessarily sound better than the speakers they replaced (my wharfedale 225’s, which I still own). They sound different, but I would not say better! Call me nuts, but that is what I hear....when a manufacturer or designer gets something right, regardless of price, they just get it right.