What qualities stand out in really good solid state preamps?
Recently I posted on the Herron HL-1, asking people what they thought, how it compared, etc. It's been sold and that's ok. The search continues.
But it raises a question I'd like to ask folks:
What attributes do you look for in a good solid state preamp?
Some qualities — quietness, durability, seem pretty obvious.
But what other criteria do you use to differentiate between solid state preamps?
How can they differ and what matters to you?
Please let me know!
P.S. As I've looked around, I've begun to learn more about some of the legendary preamps — made by companies such as Threshold, Ayre, Bryston, Pass, Apt-Holman, and others. It's good to have these names as references, but it would be even more useful if I knew what these brands conveyed, sonically. I've played with the idea of getting a newer Schiit preamp and then I wonder -- what if there's a "classic" preamp out there, used? What would it deliver that was worth searching for?
For a component that is "supposed to be neutral","adding nothing", looking at history of threads and posts over the past 15-20 years on this Audiogon site, seeing just how many of the same long-term members here have bought / tried / resold so many different preamplifiers or line stages. Kind of a surprise, actually.
Search for any of the mainstream preamps we all know out there, and you might just find a repeat of comments we see here on this thread.
I tend to believe some folks just like to rotate gear, and you’ll see comments like "I should have never sold that preamp". Isn’t neutral just neutral, well maybe not.
Perhaps that old preamp was that good, adding something more than nothing. :)
I’m surprised at the lack of focus on the relationship between the preamp and the amp. In my experience, the electrical characteristics of the preamp’s output and the amp’s input has had the greatest influence on getting good SQ out of the match.
That of course assumes decent gear. But I would bet a lot of what people are hearing and experiencing isn’t really inherent in the preamp, but rather the combination with the power amp. Lesser but still true with the relationship between the source and the preamp - my phono stage has a hot output and some of the preamps simply haven’t like it. It's a bad match with my Levinson.
In terms of SS, I have a Bryston, a classic Levinson ML-26, and an Emotiva. I use the last one the most, for daily low volume listening, because it has more true balanced connections that I find easy to switch around, but clearly the Levinson sounds best for focused listening. When I really want to rock out, I’ll go for the tube BAT preamp as I am loving the old stock tubes I’ve rolled into it.
@hilde45Thanks for the explanation of your gear. You seem to be searching not only for differences, but for value. Your Quicksilver and Pass amps are nice gear. I assume you’ve found the solid state preamps you’ve tried are more neutral than your tube preamp, with tighter bass, a lower noise floor and perhaps more extended highs. Those are just guesses based on my listening experience.
As others have noted, if you haven’t already tried one, the Pass XP-12 should be a good match for your Pass amp. I would expect a pre-owned unit, however, to cost considerably more than an Ayre K-5.
I hope you can audition more preamps and find one that stands out from the others.
I have kept a list of those I have owned over many years. It probably needs updating but here it is...
Preamps I Have Owned
The Best
SMc Audio TLC SE (Signature Edition)
(Formerly a McCormack TLC-1, which was upgraded by SMc Audio and is now a zero-gain, buffered preamplifier with Lundahl input transformers, a Shallco discrete volume control using Audio Note Tantalum resistors, and a choke power supply as used for the SMc VRE-1 preamplifier)(Update 2019: Disconnected volume control and replaced with two Audio Note Silver Tantalum resistors to create a unity-gain buffer for use with a stand-alone, remotely controlled, Khozmo volume control with display)
Excellent
Hattor “The Big” Preamp
(Passive/Active remote controlled preamp using Amtrans AMRG discrete resistor volume control/dual-mono with large display/options to operate passively, or actively through NewClassD op-amps with selectable 3/6/9 dB gain, very clear with great tone and dynamics, very close to the best preamps on this list at an amazingly high value to cost ratio)
Lifechanger Audio Smart icOn 4Pro Passive Preamp
(Autoformer, AVC, passive preamp/remote controlled, full function, with awesome display/full-sounding with nice tone and very good dynamics for a passive)
Tom Evans Audio Design Vibe (Lithos 7) with Pulse II Power Supply
(Amazingly real and right-sounding op-amp preamp with “Lithos” regulators, DACT attenuator and an outboard power supply, single-ended only, bare bones operation)
Lamm Industries LL2 Deluxe
(Tubed rectified/tubed output preamp with dual Alps volume controls really nice sound with the absence of balanced operation, remote, and display being the main reasons I still don’t own one)
Good
GamuT D3i – good clarity and tone but slightly sterile/lacking body compared to the best
NAT Symmetrical - quite good sounding but a bit tubey in the bass
Acoustic Imagery Jay-Sho* - (Bent Audio Tap-X Autoformer Preamp) Good clarity and tone while slightly lacking drive compared to the best
Fair to Good
MUSE Model Three Signature - Owned twice, good body and tone but IMO limited by chip volume control which leads to slightly electronic sound
McCormack/SMc RLD-1 Platinum - Massive drive and good, but not great, tone and body
Atmosphere MP3 (fully decked out with Caddock resistors and Teflon caps) – never grew to like the sound…a little too much pristine clarity for my tastes
Goldpoint Passive – Excellent clarity when used with input impedance of 100K ohms+, but bested by the improved body and drive offered by really good active preamps
Aesthetix Calypso – a little noisy and unrefined compared to the best
VTL TL5.5 – not bad but not special
CAT SL-1 Ultimate MkII
(I see how some would like this but high gain made it sound forced to me)
Sonic Frontiers Line 3 Signature Edition – a behemoth with many tubes
Endler Attenuators
(Passive resistor volume in-line control attaches direct to amps)
Lector Zoe – fun to tube roll since it allows the use of several types of tubes, nice sounding, does no wrong but not as detailed or hard-hitting as others
Ayre K-5xeMP – too clean and a little hi-fi sounding for my tastes
Nothing Special
Adcom GFP750 – good for the money
Joule Electra LA-150 MkII – never sounded better than average in my system
Hafler Iris, SS, all printed circuit board, is only 35 years old, my McIntosh mx110z, hand soldered Tubes, is only 58 years old. Refurbished, these things are hard to beat.
@audphile1
Spring KTE does NOT have optional preamp.
Schiit SYS is an interesting idea. I've tried passive pre's before and they're pretty lifeless - but I understand this would be for comparison purposes. @jc4659
@hilde45 "2. I recently compared two SS preamps and heard differences between them."
If one of those preamps was more neutral than the other then you may have been hearing the cumulative effects of your source, amp and wires rather than contributions from the preamp.
I wouldn't say the difference came back to neutrality in a tonal sense. They were both neutral. But, as was described earlier in this thread, there were differences in instrument presence, realism (if you will), soundstage width and depth, and dynamics.
Believe it or not, one of the very best sounding solid state preamps is the preamp section of Yamaha’s top tier integrated amps. For that reason I would heavily consider the Yamaha C-5000 preamp if budget allows.
dynamic range - must be able to sound laid back and gentle but scale up to explosive forces fast, as fast as demanded by the recording
low noise floor
Texture in the bass
warm and palpable mids
extended and sweet highs
nice, non-clicking silent volume control (want to be able to adjust volume without hearing any clicking or other artifacts)
must image well and create a realistic and colorful soundstage
These are the attributes are what I look for in an amp, except the clicking volume.
I have 2 great preamp volume controls and like the clicking one the best. Though a smooth heavy wheel volume control is luxurious.
This is a very nice list. For my tastes, I will nitpick and slightly change
Texture in the bass
warm and palpable mids
to just
Palpable Texture/Mass across the entire frequency spectrum; added warmth I can live without if I get the life like image and presentation.
I settled on the SimAudio 740P 8 years ago or so and that list is what I find it generally gives me compared to a handful of preamps I compared it with at the time and more importantly now when I constantly try different DACs as I swap them in and out of my system. It's been the one constant in my system over the last 8 years as amp, speakers, and many DACs come and go.
With so many good DACs having preamp functionality it is so easy now a days to compare what a preamp does well and not so well when you swap in a very good DAC direct to your amp. I've yet to try a DAC direct (Bricasti M3 and Meitner MA3 are the two best I've tried direct) that beat it in a majority of that list. I've found the noise floor and ultimate resolution usually slightly win with the DAC but the others generally go to my preamp to my ears.
The other attribute I really like in a preamp is the flexibility and quality of the volume control. I've tried some preamps both tube and solid state where the range of volume you can make when you slightly turn the volume knob is just too large and I can't get the small changes I want. I often try to adjust different songs with different recording levels to play at the same volume and it can be difficult if the volume control lacks small increments and doesn't explicitly show you a setting.
The 740p for instance allows both 1dB down to 0.1dB volume changes depending on the range overall gain level and speed at which you change it, which makes levelling and adjusting to different songs a breeze!
Have used several SS preamps from Krell, Spectral, Mac, Musical Fidelity & vintage Tandberg. I can emphatically say I personally prefer a tube preamp/tube amp setup to compliment my spakers and the rest of my kit however, I recently got to try an Audia Flight Linestage w/phono card that was without question the best SS line/pre I've ever experienced and for all the reasons previously spoken about. The power amp always holds the dynamics & soundscape card but this preamp was A. dead quiet B. is fully ballanced (thats my jam) C. added zero coloring that I could detect 4. visually, looks are stunning and it has the feel of a fine precision instrument. Now, I know little about this company other than what I've now read online after playing around with this thing but I could own one for sure. It would have to play well with my other gear but, looking at the specs and knowing it has an adjustable gain, it would be worth a shot. Maybe next time... just my opinion
@hilde45 "2. I recently compared two SS preamps and heard differences between them."
If one of those preamps was more neutral than the other then you may have been hearing the cumulative effects of your source, amp and wires rather than contributions from the preamp. Two solid state preamps come to mind that others have described (in other forums here and in reviews elsewhere) as neutral or near-neutral and very transparent are the Benchmark LA-4 and the Holo Audio Serene. These should enable you to compare amps better than your tubed preamp. I recently removed an excellent solid state preamp from the chain and was amazed by what I heard. Now I am trying to decide if I should keep the preamp out of the chain and only use it when I listen to my phono front end, look for a different, completely neutral preamp, or go for a tubed preamp to ADD certain colorations that are desirable TO ME. Tough one.
@hilde45does your Spring KTE have an optional preamp module installed?
If your goal is to compare amps, it would be interesting to compare the amps by using a DAC’s preamp section. Or you can get Schiit SYS. It’s passive, transparent and cheap. Just a thought.
I am fine with clicking volume controls. Tells me that something measured -- which I can track -- has happened.
@mitch2
Thanks for the list of SS preamps you've tried and for the reason you think some are better than others -- viz., ability to effectively control impedance between source/DAC and power amplifier, including the cables.
When you say that the SMc preamp is your favorite, I can't tell why, sonically. How did it sound better?
1. I have three different amps and have recently borrowed a fourth. I like to compare how they sound. Using a SS preamp gives me a tool to compare them without the additives of my tube preamp. Knowing the differences between SS preamps helps me understand which sonic variables might be at work between SS preamps I might put ahead of my amps.
2. I recently compared two SS preamps and heard differences between them. I'm am somewhat uncertain about the vocabulary to use to describe the differences I'm hearing. I'm interested in the lexicography of sonic description, because when I'm reading about A's impression of X preamp or B's impression of Y preamp -- and they're using certain words -- I want some sense of how those words might translate to what I would hear if I tried X or Y preamp.
3. I am trying to establish how big a difference there can be between preamps, overall. Some companies charge 10's or thousands of dollars for their preamps. Why? Could it really be just about noise floor? What makes these preamps so great -- if it's not just runaway marketing and consumer hype?
@sns - very nice. I prefer Amtrnas and Audio Note non-magnetic resistors, power supply caps Nichicon superthroughs, Audio Note Caps and V-Caps where I can use them.
In addition to whatever switching you need, and volume control, the preamp's job is to effectively control impedance between your source/DAC and your power amplifier including the cables. High input impedance and low output impedance does that. With today's digital sources, preamps in our systems hardly need gain anymore, with the exception of phono sources.
Most preamps affect the sound one way or another. Whatever you like about the sound of your system, choose a preamp that enhances the sound and moves it in the direction you enjoy, without screwing it up. You will know the right one when you hear it.
In my system, I like Steve McCormack's SMc Audio low or no-gain preamps such as the VRE-1 in whatever iteration, which could include the VRE-0.5 or an old TLC-1 that has been upgraded/rebuilt by SMc Audio. I have tried other SS preamps including Tom Evan's Vibe/Pulse II, Ayre preamps, GamuT D3i, Muse Signature, and the AVC preamps, Acoustic Imagery Jay-Sho and icOn 4Pro. The Tom Evans did nothing wrong and the AVC preamps were nice sounding and interesting, but the SMc preamp I own is by far my favorite.
If a listener desires influence from a preamp on the source material (the music as it was mastered), it should be proportionate to influence the kit downstream of it offers. I assume this is the “synergy” perpetually discussed - small to moderate influences of different artifacts in the playback chain syncing up to the preference of one or more listeners. Believable even if not particularly demonstrable. 😉
e.g.: If you want clear-of-artifacts like a Benchmark (preamp) but then run your ZZ Top tracks through a power amp with Shuguang tubes*, you probably keep people guessing in all other life matters, too! 😆
*that’s no dig at Shuguang tubes - in the right rig they’re great fun
The best sounding pre amp out there is no pre amp at all, many fine source components can be directly connected to a amplifier, at one time I was only into CD's so I had a CD player that had a volume control on it and balanced outputs! I had 2 pieces of gear and was buying the finest CD's I could get my hands on (XRCD).
Matt M
P.S I prefer a hybrid setup using a Manley Labs Jumbo shrimp and Chinook Phono pre front end with a McIntosh MC352 double balanced solid state amp.
Changed out generic Chinese rotary selectors (tvc) for Amtrans, changed out generic metal film bias resistors for Takman carbon film, Nichicon FG bias caps for Audio Note Seiryu, Kaisei out of stock, probably would have used them if in stock.
RE: non-clicking volume control - the problem is that you waste a lot of what the preamp circuit can do. The only way to get the most from your preamp is to use the volume control to control gain. That means resistors. All the best resistors are discrete, so you need to select different resistors for each volume level. This means clicks.
@sns - I had mentioned Pass Labs also. I was wondering since you said your other preamp was upgraded and had some modification by you. What were they? As an repair service, I would imagine that we could upgrade the Pass with a few choice parts and make that preamp even better for a SS unit.
@hilde45I'm glad you found my post about my experience with my Ayre K-5emp helpful. I have a few questions for you? Why are you interested in a solid state preamp? What sonic characteristics are most important to you in an audio system? What are the sources, amp and speakers that make up the rest of your system?
I ask these questions because the answers might suggest other preamps I've auditioned that you might find of interest. Also, there are many who prefer a tube pre-amp with a solid state amplifier, including Dan Wright, the founder and owner of Modwright, whom I respect and who produced the tube phono stage that I own.
@dekay Those kits look very interesting! I've heard more than once that best bang for buck is DIY. @yogiboy I have tried a very high quality passive preamp built via intact audio -- https://intactaudio.com/atten.html
Didn't add enough ooomph.
@sns Thanks so much for your descriptive account of the comparison between your tube, preamp and the Pass labs preamp. I do not believe I will come up with a better preamp than the 6SN7 preamp, which is serving me so well right now. What I really want is a utility infielder that does a really good job when I'm taking a break from tubes or when I want something very neutral so that I can clearly hear the amplifiers and the other equipment in the system. I have heard very good things about threshold, which is also a pass designed product.
@tomic601 Great additions to the vocabularly list: "dynamic relief, attack, slam, immediacy, air around harmonics,...the ability to pick out individual voices in mass chorale, to discern the long reverberant space of the venue"
The analogy with wine is an apt one. These are cases where the vocabulary almost necessarily exists at a too-remote gap from the experience itself. And yet anybody who is an audio file, has had to try to compare different things and come up with words that they could use as benchmarks, as reference points, as they are trying to sum their evaluations into a judgment about whether X or Y is better, or which fits this or that system, room, or mood. You have definitely moved the ball down the field!
@elliottbnewcombjr What a great audio history you've had! Thanks for relaying that -- a gold mine of interesting tidbits!
@sameyers1 Your input is probably pushing me, personally, to just wait for an Ayre to at least audition. It reminds me of some really famous other pieces people mention over and over with 100% superlative praise. I'm pretty sold, now, on Ayre as a preamp to try.
@snsI own XP22 and it’s an awesome preamp. I have never heard Coincident. I really like the XP22 - for me, it checks all the boxes. There’s also an obvious synergy between it and the Pass X260.8 in my system. I love tubes though but currently am on break from tubed electronics. When I’m game again, I’ll have the Coincident on my list of preamps to check out. I appreciate how detailed and constructive your post was.
On volume controls….one of my first preamps was Hafler IRIS. The remote control had physical knobs for volume and balance. It was the most amazing and coolest thing ever! Smooth opetation, no clicking. The preamp itself was crazy good as well. Especially for the price of about $250 that I paid for it used 😂.
I own an Ayre Acoustics K-5xemp pre-amp and use it in my primary system. I agree with other responses that speak to its virtually inaudible noise level and its exemplary clarity. Having listened to several others, it stands out in those two areas. But as an example of a very neutral preamp, its frequency response is very flat. No emphasis on bass, mid-range or highs. They all come through in a way that makes instruments sound like they’re being played in your room. I listen mostly to acoustic music - classical and jazz. On a well recorded album of acoustic guitar or piano with bass and drums, the sound is lifelike and the imaging is very good. You can spend more, quite a bit more, and get better imaging.
There are a few features that have kept this unit in my system. It has great synergy with my Ayre cd player and Ayre dac. It has two balanced inputs to accommodate those and balanced outputs to my amp. It is said that truly balanced systems are better at rejecting noise. It’s why recording studios and concert venues use balanced equipment and cabling. The K-5 units also have a home theater bypass for those who use their 2-channel systems as part of a home theater setup. The volume control on the K-5 is wonderful, with to me no audible steps as you raise or lower volume, just a smooth progression.
There are also the issues of value and durability. A pre-owned K-5 can be purchased from a reputable dealer or individual at a very attractive price and likely will be noticeably superior to almost anything new at that price. And it can be repaired, if needed, by Ayre - more on that below.
Finally there is the build quality and customer support. Ayre responds to calls and emails. They repair their products for a reasonable charge. And they offer upgrades from time to time that improve their products, again at reasonable cost. The only other manufacturers to which I’ve been exposed that offer comparable service are Bryston, PassLabs and Modwright. I suspect there are others.
I would encourage you to audition the units on your final list, preferably in your home, which is not always easy. The Music Room and several other dealers let you purchase with a return period should you decide you don’t like the unit. That’s the way I prefer to purchase pre-owned. For new gear, if a dealer won’t let me bring it home or return it I wouldn’t do business with them. And with new equipment that hasn’t been burned in, the return right is important.
Friends bring their tube phono; tube preamp; cartridges to hear on my system they are familiar with, We patch them in: compare to my tube preamp/amp, speakers the same, cables the same except their 1 set of interconnects. Occasionally we use a pair of my interconnects.
Cartridges: my TT81 can play with all 3 tonearms in play with no concern regarding ’drag’. I simply change the input on the SUT and perhaps the PASS for MM, or one of the 4 optional x factors. Also you need to have a sense of where to adjust the Cayin’s volume while on mute (I make temporary pencil marks). Tonearms remain in play so location in the program has not changed.
We hear differences, discuss them, good experience.
Jim brought 3 Beatle albums, both MONO and STEREO versions. We had a good time listening.
1st impression: MONO: you are more involved with the words/song’s lyrics. Stereo next: you are more involved with the sound, imaging, good or bad engineering.
Of course, once you know the words/lyrics, then you enjoy the STEREO version more than 1st listen.
DEFINITELY playing MONO with a true MONO Cartridge is much better than playing Mono with a Stereo cartridge, even if your preamp has a mono mode.
ANY vertical movement, dust, scuffs, dirt in bottom of grooves, slight warps is picked up as noise by the stereo cartridge, then, using preamp’s Mono Mode, that ’noise’ is DOUBLED!
I haven’t been in an audio showroom for many, many years, know nothing about current equipment, which is why I talk about features, advantages of .... and specifically mention only equipment I have owned or close friends have owned. Thus I sound like a broken record, mocking bird repeating ....
I never fully trusted showroom or audio show imperfect comparisons back in the day except to get a general sense of things, what to risk some money on.
Audio shop in Brooklyn Heights, late 60’s, did the best, they rolled each speaker from big room down the hall into the listening room (no cones of other speakers in the room), comparisons by memory, but outstanding/involving was instantly obvious.
TUBES
I have inherited/owned and like Vintage tube preamps and amps, and hear differences, but usually they are using different tubes somewhere, so not true/direct comparisons. I test my own tubes, test friends tubes, give friends tubes from my collection of new/mostly used pulls that test good, never a direct comparison. I buy quad matched, test them when received, then after a while truly matched? I check everything annually just before thanksgiving.
Fisher 80 az tube mono blocks (used a few different tube types) EL37’s originally.
Fisher Receivers, 500C (3) and 800c (500c with am tuner added)
Cayin A88T (current in main system) (had to sound as good as my Fisher 80az mono blocks). They do, and I changed 6550s to KT88s, prefer them. Had Steve at VAS re-bias them (A88T m1 needed for 16 ohm taps for Vintage 16 ohm speakers. m1 bias adjustment is internal)
I use a Little Luxman 10 wpc tube integrated in my office, never compared to anything, sounds great driving my restored Vintage AR-2ax speakers. Sources: Vintage TT; Vintage R2R; Modern PC/usb out/DAC.
My friends mostly have tube equipment, in their systems, several things especially speakers and the room make differences.
.......................................
SS
I was given a McIntosh SS mc2250. Picked up and took straight to Harvey's 45th street, NYC (McIntosh Lab Day, I had made an appointment). McIntosh tested, said ’unusual specimen, accurate to 305 wpc’, 1 led out, mailed it to me, I changed it. Drove JSE Infinite Slope Model 2’s with it for years.It was designed to ’do nothing’, and that’s exactly what it did to my ears. It was the speakers that were outstanding.
At that time I compared 3 amps with 3 sets of color coded speaker wires (all home made cat 5), with WBT locking Bananas for myself and friends.
Fisher 500c tube receiver; Fisher 80az mono blocks; McIntosh SS2250, all thru the very revealing JSE’s
I also had the same content: CD; LP; 4 track Reel to Reel, pre-recorded.
EVERYONE picked LP over CD, and R2R over LP.
EVERYONE picked Tubes over SS, mono blocks generally, not always preferred to 500c receiver.
I had/have zero hum, however it wasn’t always a perfect volume match, that influences things as you know.
Yamaha SS CR-1020 Receiver for Garage/Shop system. It sounds darn good, now driving my other pair of restored AR-2ax speakers in the garage, a variety of small speakers in the shop..
It replaced prior Tandberg SS TR-1080, which I think had the most unique SS sound of any SS I have owned, wonderful sound driving a variety of speakers, two sets for garage and shop.
Never directly compared (Tandberg was not functioning, Yamaha is a big heavy beast).
so, no, I have not directly compared SS amps directly.
....................................
Vintage, lacking remote control,
Is why I keep recommending the Chase RLC-1, especially remote volume and remote balance. I use 3 currently
Main: sources to tube preamp; preamp to Chase (volume and balance); Chase to Integrated.
Office: remote power only (Luxman physical power button stays on)
Garage Shop: thru tape loop for in/out comparison, never a difference as has been true for many many years.
It is a course a very worthy question.. like finding words for wine…you may never taste or describing the imagined swing of a fine Bespoke English double…. before a first hunt….
I might add dynamic relief, attack, slam, immediacy, air around harmonics ( especially in the bass - think Starker Cello - the ability to pick out individual voices in mass chorale, to discern the long reverberant space of the venue , how high can the triangles float ? Do i hear those and more in both an ARC and Ayre pre, sure…and in Keiths best work. Charlie like Keith a no negative feedback and time and phase , low resonance..listen and measure guy….
Having long wanting to do comparison of top notch solid state pre to my Coincident Statement (MkII upgrade, along with some of my own mods) I recently purchased Pass XP22. I had a chance to extensively compare the two, and experimented with various platforms, footers, power cords, IC's, in other words voiced Pass for best performance with my setup.
So, my final analysis after 3 months comparison. The only two area in which the Pass excelled over Coincident was slightly more extension on top and occasionally I had the sense of slightly more details at certain frequencies, such as words being more easily discernible on some recordings, this not consistent? In spite of this I never thought the Pass to be more resolving or having a lower noise floor. And the easily heard superior transparency of the Coincident trumped whatever advantage Pass may have had there. Its like information vs sense of real live performers in room. As others have mentioned tube vs ss sound staging and imaging also differ, Coincident had more air around performers, this along with precise image placement, Pass did this very well, just sharper outlines around performers. They were aprox. equal in sound stage and image size, both first rate. I actually preferred the bass from Coincident, more tuneful while remaining articulate, bass was perhaps the most problematic issue I had with Pass, really had to experiment with platforms, footers and power cords to approach bass performance of Coincident. One note or sense of thudding, inarticulate bass was there with certain setups, have to say I brought this under control with correct setup, still never quite on par with Coincident. As for tonality, timbre, Pass really close to replicating Coincident in ability to humanize recordings, I can't imagine any SS doing this better than the Pass. I believe this has long been one of the aspects of Pass equipment that people rave about, I concur.
All in all, at the end I was quite taken by the Pass, in the context of a SS unit. I've not had much success with SS since getting into SET amps and pre's. For me the minimalist approach of small parts count, boutique parts voiced for my particular setup, and point to point wiring provide a transparency or performers in room sensation I can't get with either push pull tube or SS amps and pre's.
In presentation, Pass took me to recording venue, Coincident brings performers into my room. Again, I'd say this more SET vs SS in my particular setup vs. tubes vs SS in general. Based on my recollection of past non SET tube pre's I've owned the Pass outperformed them in probably every parameter other than 3D imaging, sense of air around individual images that tubes in general do so well.
Pass also excelled in build quality, massive and solid, well organized circuit boards, soldering top notch, I'd expect great reliability. While this may sound like faint praise, I'd evaluate the Pass as really top notch SS pre, I could see it being preferable to tube pre's in some systems.
@elliottbnewcombjrAfter reading your two posts I do not see any mention of sonic metrics. Your comment, "change nothing audibly" is all I see. After all your years in the hobby, you never compared one SS preamp to another and made any notes (even mental) about the differences between them? (Such as the ones listed by @audphile1) That surprises me based on your other posts. Then again, maybe you are just being transparent about the fact that, for you, there’s nothing to be noticed.
I’m not asking for buying advice in my OP, but thank you for your thoughts.
@hilde45 Have you ever considered a hybrid preamp? I just bought a PS Audio BHK Signature preamp and it has a couple of 12au7’s for the input and mosfet’s for the output. Only had it a couple of days, but I am really enjoying it so far.
It’s kind of interesting that Paul of PS Audio was dead set against tubes for a long time.We are talking about someone who led the charge for solid state for decades.
Now the story about how the late Bascom H. King (BHK) finally talked Paul into using "TUBES" on the input stage of his amplifiers, and then TUBES in his BHK preamplifier. Why Paul says, "because it sounds better". Now he agrees.
All tube or hybrid with tube in the preamp, how PS Audio -or how Linear Tube Audio does it is fun to explore and test out. Finding a suitable (new era) solid state preamp that sounds "natural", and does not break the bank, is fun and time consuming research project. Best of luck to all here in that hunt, enjoy! :)
NEW: understanding the remote and options buried in the menus (often need to download/read the manual).
Vintage: plan on having it refurbished by someone. Some old jacks are corroded, even slightly under-sized, Audio Classics changed all my rca jacks to new gold plated.
2. sound of it's Phono Stage: i.e. I did NOT like the sound of my McIntosh C28 SS Preamp's Phono, everything else was terrific. I love my McIntosh tube preamp's Phono.
3. trim controls, not critical but nice to have: to level out the volume of various inputs, some vintage like both my McIntosh SS and Tube preamps. Other vintage?Some new have trim controls?
Vintage: No remote control, how get remote volume at least? Remote Balance?
I recommend the Chase RLC-1 to add remote features to a Vintage preamp. Use thru a tape or processor loop, or in between preamp and amp, OR, skip a preamp, use it's 4 line level inputs and get all of it's optional features
They come up on hifi shark often, none now. this price is ridiculous, but it shows it well. You MUST have the remote, no controls on the unit.
What attributes do you look for in a good solid state preamp?
for me it is the following -
tone - must be natural
dynamic range - must be able to sound laid back and gentle but scale up to explosive forces fast, as fast as demanded by the recording
low noise floor
Texture in the bass
warm and palpable mids
extended and sweet highs
nice, non-clicking silent volume control (want to be able to adjust volume without hearing any clicking or other artifacts)
must image well and create a realistic and colorful soundstage
This is an amazing list. Many said "neutral" or "quiet" but your list really adds a lot. And you have heard all of these differences between different solid state preamps, I’m assuming. Thank you!
One of the best SS preamps I heard was the old Pass Labs two chassis preamp. It was not like tubes but fast, separation, dynamic contrasts, deep bass, etc. I purchased mine used years ago for $2K. It looks good also. The Ayre would also be my consideration. I would consider either one of them over the older preamps you mention and what others have mentioned since we have probably heard them all at one time or another and have upgraded too many to mention..
Have you ever considered a hybrid preamp? I just bought a PS Audio BHK Signature preamp and it has a couple of 12au7’s for the input and mosfet’s for the output. Only had it a couple of days, but I am really enjoying it so far.
There is a Neurochrome 686 for sale at present in the US.
I know this Amp's capabilities very well, through being demo'd it in the UK in various build guises.
The 686 I have heard in use on a £200K System compared to the best part of a £50K Soulution Power Amp, with a Solution Pre Amp used for both Amp's demo's.
The 686 being approx' 25 x cheaper was a real contender, and I mean real contender. This is what can be had when the design for the Power Amp has a Parts List that is between £2K - £3K.
Both these Amp's used in the system and environment that was set up for the system was the best SS Power Amp's I have heard in use to date.
@jc4659"2-dimensional versus 3-dimensional images" -- well said.
Good info about the the different Ayre models.
@yyzsantabarbara
"My goal is to let the preamp produce the sound of the amp, source, and cables without adding to the mix" -- that came through very clearly in your first post, too. Got it, and the additional warmth in other equipment provides the rationale. Too much of a good thing is too much. My buddy has a lot of character in his Coincident Dragons with 300B tubes and so he wants a passive pre ahead of it. This approach makes sense.
I'm a tube preamp lover, for sure. But as was said above, sometimes it's nice to hear what the rest of the chain is doing, minus the preamp. I like swapping gear in and out and listening for differences. I'm not converging on one preamp, amp but want the chance to keep mixing things up.
No, not really. Some SS preamps can sound neutral but but sound sterile and not very musical. More refined preamps still sound neutral but are more tonally balanced and sound more natural so nothing jumps out at you and you just feel like you’re listening to music rather than some version of it through a stereo system. I guess that’s the best I can describe it. The Ayre is a good example of the latter, which is why I mentioned it (plus there’s one available used), and my former Bryston BP6 is another although likely a little less warm sounding than the Ayre — but that’s just an educated guess.
As far as soundstage/imaging, I think in general you need to pony up more $$$ to get to a higher level there than you do with tubes. @jc4659is a good example in what he experienced in going from an Ayre 5xe to the considerably more expensive 1xe. One of the things that attracted me to the BP6, and why I alluded to in your prior thread, is that it produced a large, open 3D soundstage and didn’t break the bank. Hope this answers your questions.
My gear on the Livingroom system is the following (excluding preamps):
Yamaha NS5000 speaker (amazing)
CODA #16
Benchmark DAC3B
Audience FrontRow speaker cable (amazing)
Benchmark XLR between the preamp and amp
Audience AU24SE XLR/ RCA interconnects for sources
The most impressive piece in the setup is the Yamaha by a massive margin. I can improve in the other gear relatively easily, Though the other gear is very good.
I would agree that the gear that the preamp is connected to is what is making this system sound good. I used to have the LA4 preamp in the mix instead of the Serene. The LA4 actually fits better in the space I have for the audio gear. However, the Serene lacks Left and Right balance which I need with the LRS+.
Switching the Serene with the LA4 did not make much of a difference in the sound. The LA4 is a bit cleaner and the Serene a bit warmer. However, those difference are minor compared to the similarities.
"palpable presence" = definitely.
I may be interested in selling my Serene to buy another LA4 or HPA4. The LA4 can be physically fit better in my audio space. Unfortunately, I tossed the Holo shipping box since I figured I would keep the preamp forever. The LA4 and Serene are inter-changeable to me.
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