What qualities stand out in really good solid state preamps?

@curiousjim I'm not against hybrid preamps. The point of this thread is different. It's meant to ferret out criteria.

@audphile1

What attributes do you look for in a good solid state preamp?

for me it is the following -

• tone - must be natural
• dynamic range - must be able to sound laid back and gentle but scale up to explosive forces fast, as fast as demanded by the recording
• low noise floor
• Texture in the bass
• warm and palpable mids
• extended and sweet highs
• nice, non-clicking silent volume control (want to be able to adjust volume without hearing any clicking or other artifacts)
• must image well and create a realistic and colorful soundstage

This is an amazing list. Many said "neutral" or "quiet" but your list really adds a lot. And you have heard all of these differences between different solid state preamps, I’m assuming. Thank you!

@elliottbnewcombjr After reading your two posts I do not see any mention of sonic metrics. Your comment, "change nothing audibly" is all I see. After all your years in the hobby, you never compared one SS preamp to another and made any notes (even mental) about the differences between them? (Such as the ones listed by @audphile1 ) That surprises me based on your other posts. Then again, maybe you are just being transparent about the fact that, for you, there’s nothing to be noticed.

I’m not asking for buying advice in my OP, but thank you for your thoughts.

@yyzsantabarbara 
I want my SS preamp to not add anything to the sound. 

So there is nothing beyond tonality -- the only difference is warmth or tubiness vs. neutral/non-additive -- which matters for you?

If noise or quietness is the only factor for you, I am still stumped how you differentiate between preamps, other than the way they suit your tastes (color, functions) or create synergy with your existing equipment. 

@soix 
Thank you. Is "refinement" a way of saying "neutrality"?
Unlike others here, you mention soundstage, which I have heard is possible in SS preamps, though people associate it more with tubes. Others don't mention it. Maybe all the sound-staging and presentation of instruments sounds the same to them.

The Ayre has a great reputation -- I'm trying to find out which sonic attributes these famous preamps are known for -- beyond just being quiet or neutral.

@fuzztone  @mapman 
Another vote for neutrality or neutrality or lack of noise/distortion, etc. 

If you listened to 10 neutral preamps, would there be anything else sonically that would help you decide between them or would it all come down to non-sonic attributes?

Either there is nothing at stake except quietness/neutrality or there are additional descriptors not yet mentioned.

E.g. I recently compared two SS preamps. One was inexpensive, Chinese. The other was really great parts and design by a local DIY'er. Neither preamp added tonal "color" (i.e., tonal character, such as warmth) but they presented the music differently. In one, the soundstage was bigger, fuller (maybe not more detailed) and instruments and voices had more presence, body, realism -- that "in the room" quality. These were not mentioned by above posters, so I'm concerned that I am superimposing them onto what I'm hearing -- unless others have noticed these, too, but are just not mentioning them. 

@jc4659 "2-dimensional versus 3-dimensional images" -- well said.
Good info about the the different Ayre models.

@yyzsantabarbara 
"My goal is to let the preamp produce the sound of the amp, source, and cables without adding to the mix" -- that came through very clearly in your first post, too. Got it, and the additional warmth in other equipment provides the rationale. Too much of a good thing is too much. My buddy has a lot of character in his Coincident Dragons with 300B tubes and so he wants a passive pre ahead of it. This approach makes sense.

@ghdprentice 

I'm a tube preamp lover, for sure. But as was said above, sometimes it's nice to hear what the rest of the chain is doing, minus the preamp. I like swapping gear in and out and listening for differences. I'm not converging on one preamp, amp but want the chance to keep mixing things up.

@robshaw 
Thanks for the Benchmark shout out.

Really great thread thanks to you all!

@dekay  Those kits look very interesting! I've heard more than once that best bang for buck is DIY.
@yogiboy  I have tried a very high quality passive preamp built via intact audio -- https://intactaudio.com/atten.html 
Didn't add enough ooomph.

@sns  Thanks so much for your descriptive account of the comparison between your tube, preamp and the Pass labs preamp. I do not believe I will come up with a better preamp than the 6SN7 preamp, which is serving me so well right now. What I really want is a utility infielder that does a really good job when I'm taking a break from tubes or when I want something very neutral so that I can clearly hear the amplifiers and the other equipment in the system. I have heard very good things about threshold, which is also a pass designed product.

@tomic601  Great additions to the vocabularly list: "dynamic relief, attack, slam, immediacy, air around harmonics,...the ability to pick out individual voices in mass chorale, to discern the long reverberant space of the venue"
The analogy with wine is an apt one. These are cases where the vocabulary almost necessarily exists at a too-remote gap from the experience itself. And yet anybody who is an audio file, has had to try to compare different things and come up with words that they could use as benchmarks, as reference points, as they are trying to sum their evaluations into a judgment about whether X or Y is better, or which fits this or that system, room, or mood. You have definitely moved the ball down the field!

@elliottbnewcombjr  What a great audio history you've had! Thanks for relaying that -- a gold mine of interesting tidbits!

@sameyers1  Your input is probably pushing me, personally, to just wait for an Ayre to at least audition. It reminds me of some really famous other pieces people mention over and over with 100% superlative praise. I'm pretty sold, now, on Ayre as a preamp to try.

I am fine with clicking volume controls. Tells me that something measured -- which I can track -- has happened.

@mitch2 
Thanks for the list of SS preamps you've tried and for the reason you think some are better than others -- viz., ability to effectively control impedance between source/DAC and power amplifier, including the cables.

When you say that the SMc preamp is your favorite, I can't tell why, sonically. How did it sound better?

@benanders 

Good point about the influence from a preamp on source material being proportionate to downstream kit.

@sameyers1 

Why am interested in a solid state preamp?

1. I have three different amps and have recently borrowed a fourth. I like to compare how they sound. Using a SS preamp gives me a tool to compare them without the additives of my tube preamp. Knowing the differences between SS preamps helps me understand which sonic variables might be at work between SS preamps I might put ahead of my amps.

2. I recently compared two SS preamps and heard differences between them. I'm am somewhat uncertain about the vocabulary to use to describe the differences I'm hearing. I'm interested in the lexicography of sonic description, because when I'm reading about A's impression of X preamp or B's impression of Y preamp -- and they're using certain words -- I want some sense of how those words might translate to what I would hear if I tried X or Y preamp.

3. I am trying to establish how big a difference there can be between preamps, overall. Some companies charge 10's or thousands of dollars for their preamps. Why? Could it really be just about noise floor? What makes these preamps so great -- if it's not just runaway marketing and consumer hype?

My present system is here: https://www.audiogon.com/systems/9064

SOURCES:
Intel NUC streamer (DIY) Intel nuc
Holo Audio Spring KTE
PREAMPS
DIY tube preamp 6SN7 (like deHavilland Ultraverve 3)
loaner SS based around Burson design
AMPS
Quicksilver Mono 60s (prefer KT77)
Pass Labs XA-25
loaner Hypex based class D amp
SPEAKERS
Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower
SUBS
REL R 328
Rythmik Audio (2 subs) F12SE
Cables by Analysis plus.

@audphile1 
Spring KTE does NOT have optional preamp.
Schiit SYS is an interesting idea. I've tried passive pre's before and they're pretty lifeless - but I understand this would be for comparison purposes.
@jc4659 

@hilde45  "2. I recently compared two SS preamps and heard differences between them."
If one of those preamps was more neutral than the other then you may have been hearing the cumulative effects of your source, amp and wires rather than contributions from the preamp.

I wouldn't say the difference came back to neutrality in a tonal sense. They were both neutral. But, as was described earlier in this thread, there were differences in instrument presence, realism (if you will), soundstage width and depth, and dynamics.

@bgross 
Audia Flight Linestage -- thanks!
    
@ddafoe 

Thanks for the tweak to the description of bass and mids and for the comment about volume control accuracy as an important factor.

@helomech -- Yamaha! Who woulda guessed!

@sameyers1

I assume you’ve found the solid state preamps you’ve tried are more neutral than your tube preamp, with tighter bass, a lower noise floor and perhaps more extended highs.

That’s on the nose. Exactly right. Often, what the tube preamp adds is preferred. But not always -- some recordings benefit from more the SS preamps additional clarity and upper register forthcomingness -- especially orchestral recordings. I like to hear the strings very distinctly, and sometimes this is not coming through with tubes.

Pass XP-12, eh? I’ll keep that in mind and perhaps be able to get one for a while from TMR or a local audiophile.

@mitch2
Fanstastic list! Thank you for taking the time. I’m saving this!
Surprised Bryston never crossed your path.

@jji666

I’m surprised at the lack of focus on the relationship between the preamp and the amp.

I’m assuming that those who have tried multiple preamps are assuming this as part of the evaluation, already, and don’t need to call attention to it. If not, then a lot of opinions here would likely be nullified if, as you’re suggesting, there may very well be a less-than-ideal match between preamp and amp at work.

@sameyers1 

"Pass Labs XP-12…is just slightly on the warmer side of neutral, the Pass Labs house sound, and it images better than my Ayre." 

Ok, now we have a targeting lock! Thank you -- this is up to the top of my list. Thank you!

@skinzy 

"the reason some folks report improvement with a separate preamp is their DAC preamp or power amp are not compatible"

That invalidates their comments, unfortunately! 

@ghdprentice 

"There is a way to determine neutral. And it is by becoming intimately familiar with acoustic music in multiple venues."

That sets a benchmark for those sorts of concerts; but does it do for mixed, PA-driven live music, EDM, etc. what it does for acoustic music concerts?

That said, I've been to many acoustic concerts where the location I was sitting or the hall itself made the mix of sound pretty bad. I have sat there thinking, "I wish this was playing on my rig."

@ghdprentice

Good point about calibrating to live music. I suppose that would establish a correlation that could transcend categories. Well put.

Of course, a lot of amplified/studio music should NOT be gotten "correct" because they are compressing and shaping the sound so it pleases and grabs attention when played of mass market headphones, cars, etc. One does NOT want to hear the original. Like a bad casserole, if it’s not corrected somehow, it’s barely edible.
Here’s a pretty tendentious but convincing view on this: https://youtu.be/j_sa915TD-o?si=tOXaeeZvglEhpdAi

The point is that "being in the studio" is kind of meaningless, because they are making stuff to be played by others. The chef cooks food that most customers will like, not what she thinks is "true" or "best."

@sameyers1
Knowing how the XP-12 performs, especially with my XA-25 would be revealing.
I have heard neutrality with a very good passive autoformer. I didn’t like it. Lifelessness -- in that system. Now that I have a DAC with more voltage output, I might try that again. A friend with the Bent/Tap X is done with preamps. he loves it. After 30 years, that’s all he wants in a preamp.

As for "warmer", I can imagine people stuck in a room they cannot measure or tweak with treatments liking a "warmer" sound because it actually helps with some of the tonality deficits produced by their room. Without controls on these comments, there’s no way to really know whether we’re talking about the same perceptual effect. And that’s *prior* to problems we would have with interpretation of these words!

Neutrality is also problematized by our varying physiology.

To comment a bit more -- not about anyone’s comment in particular -- I ask myself, What’s the pragmatic upshot of neutrality? It cannot mean some objective "getting back to the original recording," not least because we'd never be able to confirm we had done so, and most importantly because the original recording is just prime matter which is yet to take on the forms imposed by its varying instantiations (in people's varying gear, ears, rooms, tastes, etc.

Still, we can practically know when something has been added. If I eat a burger covered with black pepper, I would know that’s not neutral. This was ghdprentice's point, I think. One has various baselines and they can notice when there's "something added" vs. "baseline." Objectivity is a pragmatic concept, not a metaphysical one.

@gfguillot
"the more you spend the more you’ll hear in the sound."
Having connected with audiophiles with an eye for small makers and DIY, I’d say the more you KNOW the more you’ll hear in the sound. (And sometimes you know you need to spend more!)

@audphile1  "Appears as if you have already interpreted and perceived what is meant by these words."

The word "warmer" seems more definite than the word "neutral," and that's what I was getting at. Much of the debate here seems to be about "neutral." 

   @jc4659  My current active preamp is a loaner, one built around a burson audio buffer. I am not sure my Holoa Audio spring can be run straight into my amp, but that's an interesting suggestion!

Again, my main thrus in this thread is to gather vocabulary for SS preamp differences.

@jc4659
I have a deHavilland type pre, yes.

The word "neutral" is anything but neutral. It’s more like a Rohrshach test that exhumes what people find important in what they listen for in their systems.

Your idea of comparing with vs. without a preamp is useful.

Neutral is not that useful a word, especially given how differently preamps can sound. For example, when I compare two preamps I’m testing, there are differences which come out that are fairly significant. [See photo below of my buddies DIY preamp built around the Burson Audio Buffer using really good caps and parts vs. a low cost L.Pass 2.0 Mos FET ] The DIY is just better in every regard. But neutrality is not at stake.

(FWIW, the L.Pass 2.0 is an amazing bargain. Dead quiet, good imaging and instrument tonal accuracy, good dynamics. $154? Who can beat that for the price?)

Live listening experiences can vary a lot. Sometimes, I find myself questioning whether I’m sitting in the best spot. I have sat 7th row center and I have sat 35th row off to the right. If I sit close to the bass section in an orchestra, I bemoan how "bass-heavy" everything sounds. It’s not balanced enough. Is that a lack of neutrality? Compared to what? -- that’s the question. Here, the answer could be (a) compared to 7th row center or (b) compared to my rig. In other cases, one venue is, itself, worse than another -- or my rig. But "better" and "worse" and "neutral" or "non-neutral" all have to be indexed to a set of criteria or they’re not helpful words -- they’re wobbly words.

@audition__audio 

I think it more advisable to feed your S.S. amp with a tubed preamp and in my experience this seems more common.

It's more advisable if the question is "What's better? Tubed or SS preamp?" But, if you read the OP, you'll see that is not the question. It's not an "either/or" question. It's about the differences between SS preamps. 

@rolox 

I find it very amusing to read that apparently, for some, there isn't audible differences between solid state preamps?!? 

Come on.

Every circuit has a "sound", even when it seems very transparent / neutral, if you compare it with another circuit, you will spot differences. It can be "more drive", "more depth", stronger bass, whatever. Solid state preamps DO sound different, just like the rest.

Exactly exactly exactly.

There are many posts which just rely on lazy words like "invisible" or "transparent." That is evidence to me either of lack of perception acuity or lack of linguistic facility. Ok, maybe SS preamp A is very hard to distinguish from SS preamp B. Fine. But to say this *class* of gear lacks differences is repugnant to reason.