SLike probably all of you, I just received notice from Audiogon of a 20% discount on Harbeth XD. I clicked on the tab and found that the sale price is about $2700. I have read so many glowing comments here about Harbeth — as if just saying the name is the password for entering aural nirvana. I admit, I haven’t listened to Harbeth speakers. But looking at these, they just look like smallish bookshelf speakers. I’m not questioning how good others say these speakers are, but HOW do they do it out of an ordinary-looking box?
Is it the wood? Is it the bracing? Is it the crossover components? Is it the cone material? What is the reason why these Harbeth’s are such gems compared to other bookshelf speakers? What is it about the construction or technology that makes these speakers a deal at $2700 on sale versus the $800, 900 or $1,000 that others normally cost? What is the secret that makes audiophiles thrill to get such a costly bargain?
Have both the 30.1’s and 40.2’s and they do sound great in all respects... when... driven by the right amplifiers - especially, the Hegel’s, which Alan Shaw demos his speakers with.
The SS Hegel amps control the woofers and mids properly, which adds clarity, detail and dynamics. Makes all the difference in the quality of their sound and elevates them more to a sound similar to Quad ESL57’s, or even close to ATC’s.
They also sound great with the Mac MA252, or MA352 tube / SS hybrids.
Though, I’d prolly still prefer the ATC’s - they’re harder to find at a reasonable price.
And... if you want something that’s much easier to drive, which can rival the sound of the Harbeths - the Klipsch Heritage line is a great option - which can sound great with some great tube amps (e.g. Line Magnetic LM 219ia, etc.). And... you can likely find them at a better price.
I've been in this hobby since the 60's and I've heard everything known to man. I've owned horns, electrostatics and a range of dynamic speakers. I've listened to every kind of music in every kind of room.
I'm older and wiser now. I have a modest system with P3 esr speakers. These speakers do everything well and are engaging and non-fatiguing. They are plenty loud for my needs (they do need a bit of oomph to get going).
If you are looking to rock the house down and need to feel your pants flap in the breeze and want to feel the bass thump in your chest, don't get these. If you want to be delighted with hours of engaging and fatigue free listening at reasonable volumes, put these on your short list.
Avoid the older models and start from SHL5+ or SHL5+ 40th Anniversary, M30.2 Anniversary, 40.1 or 40.2 Anniversary etc.
i understand the logic behind @ryder’s statement but i think it is too strong... older models have a different tonality, but this can be managed by using the correct amp (a solid state one with good damping factor like a lower or older hegel. or belles aria, the like) and slightly brighter more open cables... older models like the compact7 es2 can be really excellent, and they are a bargain, give you so much of what is loved about harbeths for $1500-1800 a pair (plus stands) vs a grand more for es3’s and vs over 2 grand more for c7 40’s or xd’s...
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Also, as @jjss49 mentioned, there is a substantial difference between SHL5 (non-plus) and SHL5+. I often hear folks making comments on the basis of owning the non-plus model. There is no comparison. I heard the non-plus version and own the plus version. The super tweeter in SHL5+ makes a huge difference. You simply cannot extrapolate based on your impressions of the non-plus model alone.
the non plus version of the shl5 also has a super tweeter... like the c7 es2 vs es3, the crossovers were modified to reduce some midbass boom/looseness and give the treble a noticeable lift (the xd versions do some more in the same direction, but just a teeny teeny bit)
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there are those that say harbeths sound ’dead’, ’constipated’, ’dull’... this impression results from a matter of preference, how an individual hears, what that individual seeks from their hifi
to repeat what i have said in other posts, hifi for many who stick to it over the years is a journey, while loving music is a constant... most new to the hobby are amazed by the high resolution, lively, overtly detailed sound real hi-fi offers, as it differs so much from what one had experienced prior, then folks enamored with the detail chase it, spend more $ in that pursuit
some other folks always feel they want their system to reproduce the excitement and highly vivid (and very loud) nature of live music... some speakers excel at that, klipsch's, tekton's, wilsons and magicos on the higher end
over time, if one sticks with the hobby, tastes needs preferences usually evolve... it is not fun to have one’s ears ringing the next morning after hearing a live band or a concert the night before ...folks who like to enjoy music alot, in their homes daily, move away from the fatigue of a bright, forward 'live-sounding' system, and want a more ’beautiful’ and easy to listen to kind of presentation, lower volumes, the sound and level of a human voice singing without amplifiers for instance - add to that the issue of much recorded music is mixed and mastered too brightly, compensating for the fact that most listeners don't have highly resolving rigs...
at this point in one's journey is where harbeths (and their ilk - spendor classics, grahams, and so on) come in... and become beloved as a result by their owners
But in general I agree that a pronounced emphasis on dynamics is not what Harbeth is going for. It is well understood by its fans who prioritize other aspects of sound quality over dynamics.
Harbeth to me Are in the same category like Teckton they look plain ugly
This had me laugh out loud. A classic, reserved British monitor look is not your cup of tea? Cool. But on the same footing as the Tectonic monstrosities? LOL.
A recent look at a Harbeth XO by GR Research found about 30 components in the XO! Unfortunately, although this can produce a nice flat frequency response, which will satisfy potential buyers but more importantly be favourably mentioned by the reviewers, will reduce dynamics and micro-detail. Low level nuance also suffers.
This kind of stuff is often claimed in audiophile circles. But then so is lots of "stuff."
I'd like to see this actually demonstrated, and not just by some audiophile's say-so.
If we are talking regular old anecdotal subjective listening impressions, Thiel's complex crossovers used to get grief from the "don't put too much stuff in the crossover region because blah, blah, blah" crowd. Yet every Thiel I've had has been world class in it's price range in terms of detail, soundstaging, timbre and dynamics.
Personally I don't rely on audiophile shibboleths - the result is what matters.
And as for the parts quality in the Harbeths (which I have a fair amount of experience listening to), the results are what count. Engineers will point out that good or clever engineering isn't just "what you can do if handed the best possible parts and budget" but rather being able to achieve excellent performance without having to rely on the most expensive parts. Which is what Harbeth seems to have done.
Dan Richie in his videos does some interesting and entertaining and educational stuff. But I am not inclined to ignore that he is a salesman with stuff to sell, and arguments for his own products and services, as much as anything else.
This reminds me of a story where there was a machine failure at a factory which caused the entire line to shut down. This would have impacted hundreds of production orders and caused severe backlogs. Everyone tried to fix it for hours but couldn't figure out how to get the machine to start again. Finally, a contractor walks in, picks up a specific type of screw, replaces the faulty screw, and gets the machine to start again. He later sends an invoice for $1000 to the factory. The manager asks, "Really? $1000 to replace a screw which probably costs $1?" To which the contractor replies, "yes, $1 to replace the screw and $999 to know which type of screw to use and where to put it."
One reason why Jim T and other astute designers use a lot of parts in the filter is to tame the tanking circuits formed by natural resonance peaks of all drivers. Properly executed anti tanking parts are not in the signal path… carry on oh keyboard audiophiles….
Some pretty funny stuff in this thread - constipated, ugly, poor soundstage, get some Klipsch instead, crappy parts... At this point, I feel like I should use mine for firewood. They would probably have a bad smell though with all that constipation.
parts is not the best ,a lot of cheap film caps,core coils,resistors.Price abaut 15-20$ in total for one crossover.Drivers also cheap.Complex crossover helps a bit cover shortages of drivers and thin cabinet.Let say without labor cost ,the cost of 7es3 for a pair 300-400$
I agreed with many of the comments of how the Harbeth sound lacked clarity, detail and dynamics... UNTIL... I found the right electronics to drive them - which are the amps the designer demos them with - the Hegel amps.
They are a totally different speaker with the right electronics that match their impedance and power requirements with sufficient damping to properly control their drivers. I would not have kept them, otherwise.
If you haven't heard them with the Hegel amps, or others similar (such as the Mac MA252 SS / tube hybrid) - you haven't really heard the Harbeths.
UNTIL... I found the right electronics to drive them - which are the amps the designer demos them with - the Hegel amps.
I find that so amusing, as only a few years ago Alan Shaw was quoted as saying that his well fettled 1970’s transistor amplifiers were good enough for product development and that he didn’t think any worthwhile improvements would be made by upgrading. Something must have happened to clear away the fog.
Alan Shaw is obsessed about accurately reproducing the human voice, and he brings up the topic regularly on Harbeth's forum. Shaw's reasoning is that our hearing developed from millions of years of evolution to be hyper sensitive at picking up subtle nuances in the human voice. Therefore speaker performance is especially critical in the human vocal range where our hearing is most discerning. He has talked about using recordings of spoken speech during their engineering development and how it highlights qualities that may not be apparent from music.
This focus explains the strengths and weaknesses of Harbeth speakers. If you can get the human voice right, a lot of things come along with it. It is the reason for the famed Harbeth midrange and why it is particularly good at reproducing unamplified acoustic instruments. However, they haven't given the same attention to reproducing electronic sounds and dynamics such as in rock music.
On the Harbeth forum, Alan Shaw said they were careful about negotiating Brexit and the pandemic, and he says the company remained financially solid. Actually one of their biggest problems is meeting demand (already presold for half of this year). Like other businesses they are having problems in the supply chain. They lost one of their local cabinet makers and had trouble finding a replacement that meets their standards.
They lost one of their local cabinet makers and had trouble finding a replacement that meets their standards.
May I ask when did this happen? I noticed few complaints on the cabinet of the Harbeth on another forum. Fade marks and uneven blotches on the cherry wood veneer of the SHL5+ and 40.1 or 40.2.
However, they haven't given the same attention to reproducing electronic sounds and dynamics such as in rock music.
and it shows. While I can admire many things about Harbeth speakers I could never own a pair. I prefer ATC’s blend of compromises at the relevant price points and feel they cover more bases in terms of musical genre. In particular, I believe Harbeth trail ATC in PRAT, which Alan Shaw openly declines to recognise as a valid musical/design concept.
Quite simply if you care about the sound of music and can hear the differences between speakers at their best you will pick the ones that sound best to you.
In my case after listening to hundreds of speakers at home, friend's places, dealers and audio shows my Harbeth model sounds the best to my ears regardless of price. I would love to spend less but unfortunately the sound I like comes at a price and below that price the results diminish greatly to my ears.
Guess I did not directly answer the question- really it is how they sound that makes them special but how they get there is the answer.
They use a lossy tuned cabinet resonance design that gives them a controlled richness.
The proprietary midrange driver material is important to the tonal accuracy.
The overall voicing is extremely important. Harbeth "voices" their speakers via the crossover components to give them a sound they want- through lots of iterative testing. What you hear is not the result of designing crossovers with simulation software and calling it a day. The crossovers are designed to make the speaker sound accurate and pleasing to the ear, not a computer program.
The crossover design also incorporates circuits to assist the drivers in sounding as good as they can by eliminating distortion, frequency peaks and making them easier to drive.
Lots of art expertise and back and forth testing goes into Harbeth speakers.
They walk that fine line between detail and forgiveness like no other speaker on the market.
alan shaw often doesn’t do himself (nor his speaker owners) favors in how he issues goofy (usually self serving) blanket statements about amps, cables, stands and how they add/detract from the speakers’ performance... he thinks he is being ’strategic’ in wanting the focus and consumer spending power focused on the buying the best harbeth speaker, focus less on ancillaries... experienced users see through this...
i do agree that prat and speed are not harbeth’s shining strengths, though the upper models do that pretty darn well, if properly driven
atc’s are another matter, while also being an excellent british make, they present a totally different set of attributes, i still have two pair, they are leaner cleaner, utterly unforgiving and demanding of pristine source material and upstream gear... incredibly inefficient and revealing as in for true in-studio monitoring use level of clarity... they play what you feed them with all blemishes warts wrinkles right up front... some may want that type of presentation in their homes, many don’t
There are some that love the sound of these speakers and truly enjoy them and that's what the hobby is all about. If you enjoy the music that comes out of them and it makes you happy......then money well spent. I owned the Harbeth 40.1's and sold them in 5 months. Please see my thread if you want from years ago on why I didn't like these speakers. The responses I got from my post ranged from ; the cables you used ere wrong, you had the wrong electronics, the room wasn't right for the Harbeth's......etc, etc. My thinking and it is of my opinion and school of thought that if it is a truly good speaker , it will sound good no matter what cables, what electronics or room that they are in, they could and should sound even better if the upstream variables that I have were well thought out and addressed. Mr. Shaw knows what he is doing ; they were just not a speaker for me.
i too owned early mon 40’s -- in the 2003/4 time frame iirc (these were the original monitors, grey britex cabinets with side handles)... had them for about a year, sold my spendor sp100’s to get them -- a big mistake which i continually regretted till last year, when i finally managed to get another set of 100’s back
i had roger modjeski’s wonderful rm9-2 tube amp and an aragon 8008 ss amp back then... neither did well with the 40’s, the tube amp left the bass overblown and uncontrolled... the aragon took care of that but flattened the imaging and made the treble way too ’hifi’
so i too sold the 40’s after a year or so, went to big proac’s, which i just loved...
the mon 40’s certainly need a lot of amplifier bass damping factor, and also, placement is quite critical for finding the right bass balance in room (well well away from boundaries, tough for such a humongous box)... but then the mids and treble are quite revealing, the solid stateness of the powerhouse aragon called too much attention to itself, and not in a good way
all this was a real lesson in getting the room/speaker placement/amp combo implemented just right... learned the hard way...
I drive my M30.1’s with a Pass INT-25 integrated and supplement the 30.1’s with an SVS Micro 3000 sub. Having heard dozens, more probably hundreds of different systems over the past 30 years or so I’d be hard pressed to think of a combo I like more, for MY musical tastes and space. I lean hard to acoustic music and vocals. I like to hear individual instruments with their timbre and color intact. I like to hear space. I want to remove myself from the "real" world and imagine the performers in my apartment; on many recordings I can do that with these speakers; they’re a great match with the Pass INT-25. there’s a sense of intimacy and delicacy that I just don’t hear with most other speakers. I’m thinking about upgrading to 30.2 XD’s but outside of a pair of those for about $5 or $5.5k I wouldn’t even know what to consider near that price.
All but the largest Harbeths struggle when pushed. Seems their mid-woofers simply aren’t designed for high power handling. Their similar competitors often sound better and can play louder before compression sets in. Similar to Focals, their midrange tone sounds unnatural and slightly smeared to my ears (another listener called it "glassy"), the main reason for which I don’t understand the hype surrounding the brand and its Radial material. They do manage to have excellent driver integration, and as such, decent imaging. If coherency is top priority, they may still warrant an audition. I honestly feel Harbeth is one of the most over-hyped brands on the market concerning overall performance, especially at current retail prices. But Harbeth is becoming the Bose of British speakers -- they’re such a powerhouse in marketing that you can tell folks that there are better alternatives until you’re blue in the face -- doesn’t matter, they’re going to sell droves of them regardless.
As for listening to Harbeth, the only local high-end audio retailer specializes in big projects, like wiring houses for complete audio-video systems, though they probably carry some individual speakers. I feel a bit uncomfortable going there just to hear the equipment with no plans to purchase. Might just bite my lip and go in.
Just call ahead and explain that you want to experience what all the fuss is about. They've almost certainly had similar inquiries.
Harbeth is becoming the Bose of British speakers -- they’re such a powerhouse in marketing that you can tell folks that there are better alternatives until you’re blue in the face -- doesn’t matter, they’re going to sell droves of them regardless.
Putting it in perspective, Harbeth is a tiny company with 15 employees. Here is their UK business filing (link). Their budget is shockingly small to me (but I work in the tech industry). Hardly what I would call a "powerhouse in marketing".
I run a pair of 40.2's and the the key difference compared to my other speakers (Dynaudio C2 Plats and various hybrid electrostatic speakers inc Apogee 6 and 8's) for my setup up is the full range and dynamics I get operating them at low volume. They are my number 1 speaker set. I use an Accuphase A70 and McIntosh C22/MC75's to drive them.
They use a lossy tuned cabinet resonance design that gives them a controlled richness
This is distortion by definition. The resonating cabinets are producing their own sound like a musical instrument and this is superimposed on the signal. Hmmmm!
The crossover design also incorporates circuits to assist the drivers in sounding as good as they can by eliminating distortion, frequency peaks and making them easier to drive
So on the one hand we have intentional distortion built into the cabinet and on the other hand we have a brilliant crossover design to elliminate distortion.
This thread is really not helping the brand. It seems that if you want to experience distortion, er um sorry, no distortion, whatever, that the only way to really hear this schitzophrenic speaker is with a Hegel amp 🙄
there are people who like harbeths, others that don’t -- clearly you don’t, we get it
sizeable portions of the hi-fi industry wouldn’t exist without the notion of sympathetic distortion that makes listeners feel the music sounds nicer, so what? ... there’d be no market for vacuum tube gear for instance
harbeth is a small company, but been at it for many years, has a loyal following worldwide enjoying their product, refining speaker designs and concepts that arose out of bbc research into acoustics and monitor speaker design in the 1960’s -- they have stayed small, stuck to their knitting, know what their customers want and what their brand means... it’s a tough time for all businesses, i am sure they aren’t immune, given covid, brexit and so on...
but what’s it to you? and what’s your product (as a proudly self claimed speaker designer)? do you have a commercially available product? how is it doing? put cards on table please... i am sure your speakers are absolutely and precisely accurate to the source, free of any distortion, use only the best parts extant, perhaps i can purchase a pair?
there is a long thread on this forum currently about users here with hidden agendas ... or is it that you simply enjoy pissing on others’ happiness?
Bear in mind too that Harbeth are far from the only company constructing cabinets this way, in the classic BBC tradition. If this isn't your cup of tea, move on.
Putting it in perspective, Harbeth is a tiny company with 15 employees. Here is their UK business filing (link). Their budget is shockingly small to me (but I work in the tech industry). Hardly what I would call a "powerhouse in marketing".
I think it's the marketing prowess of the distributors more than Harbeth as a company, but effective marketing doesn't require an army of marketing majors. It really only takes one person who understands the market and what drives sales.
alan shaw often doesn’t do himself (nor his speaker owners) favors in how he issues goofy (usually self serving) blanket statements about amps, cables, stands and how they add/detract from the speakers’ performance... he thinks he is being ’strategic’ in wanting the focus and consumer spending power focused on the buying the best harbeth speaker, focus less on ancillaries... experienced users see through this...
i do agree that prat and speed are not harbeth’s shining strengths, though the upper models do that pretty darn well, if properly driven
atc’s are another matter, while also being an excellent british make, they present a totally different set of attributes, i still have two pair, they are leaner cleaner, utterly unforgiving and demanding of pristine source material and upstream gear... incredibly inefficient and revealing as in for true in-studio monitoring use level of clarity... they play what you feed them with all blemishes warts wrinkles right up front... some may want that type of presentation in their homes, many don’t
with the exception of ‘incredibly’ preceding inefficient, a pretty damn good exposition..
I have a pair of SCM11’s in my bedroom driven by Exposure Xxiii / 3010S2 monos and am not bothered at all by an overly analytical/clinical sound.. The Exposures make a wonderful pairing.
The two upper end models are extremely musical, easy to listen to, and good sound staging. I believe this is a house sound as I have always enjoyed listening to them..
This thread is really not helping the brand. It seems that if you want to experience distortion, er um sorry, no distortion, whatever, that the only way to really hear this schitzophrenic speaker is with a Hegel amp
Lol! Harbeth has been around for 40 years and has a sizable customer base. I really don't think it needs to be 'helped'. I'm running the SHL5+ with a 50 watt class A tube amp, never heard better sound in my listening room. Obviously, it's not for everyone and is not perfect. Which speaker is?
I think it's the marketing prowess of the distributors more than Harbeth as a company, but effective marketing doesn't require an army of marketing majors. It really only takes one person who understands the market and what drives sales.
I hardly see any commercial marketing of Harbeth. I think it is the influence of the fanbase more than anything else (e.g. look at discussions here on Audiogon).
For myself, Harbeth is excellent for my listening (mostly classical music), and I do consider myself a fan. However I can see that Harbeth isn't ideal for all types of music.
I lost somehow a long reply to you so I'll try again a shorter version.
I have no 'stake' in this!
I have an opinion, just like anyone else and just like you.
Do I think Harbeth are overpriced? ...Yes
Do I like their overly complex crossovers and the explanation for such? ... NO
This is my opinion.
I am not competing with anybody and have absolutely no agenda. You have been around this forum for a long time and will not be able to point to any of my posts where I have tried to sell anything. Most of my posts are about acoustics, speaking of which, looking at your room perhaps you could consider adding a few more treatments 😉
I have been asked to custom design and have. Mostly for bands, gigs and clubs. Also for an audio outlet. I do the prototyping and if approved sell them the design which includes dimensions of the cabinet and XO details. Am I in competition with Harbeth? LOL
I called out tomic601 for posting stuff on XOs that just makes no sense and is misleading.
It was not my intention to piss anybody's battery wet, but every single product on the market has those who think it's great and those who disagree. Just the way it is, is it not?
To me I find Vandersteen's speakers to be better value. He does not indulge in aggressive marketing, they are sensibly priced, sound great and perform well with any genre. Again this is my opinion. and opinions are the reason and backbone of a forum.
Lastly, you are welcome to pop over for a visit to hear first hand my designs. I mean that sincerely. I live in Ireland.
Will I buy harbeth speakers again?-No .I found them limited
Why I bought them?because I got interested in them reading various positive posts abaut them here on audiogon and elsewhere 11years ago.Creating such posts might be one of the ways of hidden agenda-secret marketing tool.It cost nothing- just time:)
Is there better speakers with midrange bloom,better dynamics,same price?yes it is:)
Thanks again for the responses. Obviously, there are differing opinions on the Harbeth “sound”. I see repeated comments that the pairing of Harbeth’s with the right electronics is key. Hegel in particular was recommended. I wonder how Harbeth’s would sound when paired with my Parasound A21 amp and Schiit Freya+ preamp? Would the purchase of Harbeth necessitate replacing my amp and pre to gain the full benefit? . . . can get expensive.
I received an e-mail from The Music Room offering a 60 day trial period with the model of my choice. I am tempted to give it a try, though not sure I even want to spend that kind of money just now.
Harbeth woofers struggling to keep up and becoming compressed seems to be online urban legend rather than how they truly sound in practice- at least the latest versions. I heard the recent P3ESR being driven by 200 WPC MOSFET monoblocks and could not believe how impactful, loud and impressive they sounded. With my SHL5+ at home I have never experienced any issues with respect to compression, dynamics or sheer SPLs.
Distortion from cabinets resonating is a controlled way is relatively benign to the ears as opposed to higher frequency driver distortion which is acutely audible and irritating. Harbeth crossovers manage their drivers extremely well and the ear test proves it.
Harbeth woofers struggling to keep up and becoming compressed seems to be online urban legend rather than how they truly sound in practice- at least the latest versions.
I have to disagree on the urban legend notion, unless Harbeth has made a relatively recent unpublished revision to their woofers.
The C7s really struggled to keep the music together at anything higher than moderate levels in my large room. Sounded almost like a voice coil bottoming, like one hears from an underdamped driver with a low x-max. Contrast that to my Stirling SB-88s which had zero issue playing to uncomfortable SPLs in the same room. The latter have a significantly larger woofer diameter but smaller cabinet.
The P3ESR SEs I demoed also sounded compressed above moderate levels (~ 85db). That was in a smaller room.
A quick search around the web reveals a few reports of busted Radial drivers. Of course, it could be that those owners were simply careless, but I'm not surprised by the pics of cracked cones and disbonded suspensions based on my auditions. All I know for certain is that I would be very cautious of the SPLs if I owned a pair.
Finding the right speaker that does your music best will save money. Buy used until you find the sound you want. you can take all the time you need and resell at little to no loss. I own a pair of speakers that can't play metallica aat ear ringing levels, buty what they do with Annie Lennox, Patricia Barber,Beck, etc make up for it. If you like the Harbeth for most of your listening get 'em and buy a used pair of Legacy's for friday night.
A quick search around the web reveals a few reports of busted Radial drivers. Of course, it could be that those owners were simply careless, but I'm not surprised by the pics of cracked cones and disbonded suspensions based on my auditions. All I know for certain is that I would be very cautious of the SPLs if I owned a pair.
The question is what percentage of Harbeth speakers are reported to have such problems. We should be careful in drawing conclusions based on anecdotal evidence coming from a 'few' reports. Are we talking 2% or 40%? I have no affiliation with Harbeth in any shape or form, but when someone makes such sweeping generalizations, it makes sense to ask for more supporting evidence.
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