What difference do power cables make?

@lanx0003    -1  A PS Audio PC 12 is a poor example of an older premium? power cord. Lets see someone make/sell a Shunyata King Cobra clone for $80 with equal sound and quality. I would be first to order!

@cleeds

+1 Well put. 😁😁😁

According to the reviewer, premium power cables do make difference but can be acquired / made cheaply (around $80?). He even demos the sonical difference to the much more expensive PS-audio cable.

I tend to believe in electrical and mechanical science. And as with most I to Believe my audio hearing.

Confusing (to say the least). Do you “believe” or do you “hear”? Two different things. 

@steakster Good point!

If these are better than OEM 1971 issue, then.................

A very good power cable need not cost much. They can make a difference in some cases but not always. Like pretty much everything else it depends. No power without one. Thats the big difference. 🤞 Wires accessories and tweaks are potentially high profit low value propositions. Be smart! Lots of market gougers and highfalutin scammers out there.

@ghdprentice +1

FWIW I bought the components for my power cables and built my own. It was a great project. I used Furutech parts and built 10 garage for my conditioner and the amps. 14 gauge for all other components. I ordered sleeving from Amazon. I already had shrink tubing from some earlier projects. They look very professional and I could hear an improvement over the stock provided cables.  

The GT0 has what is needed to operate at todays values with comfort. Motor control is A fabulous combination of vintage + enriched attitude. A Fast recreational hobby if you will… I drive and am intrigued with German daily rides. There Certainly is sound and electronic controls in those vehicles. A Very speedy treat as well I might add. So now that we filled in a few inquisitive gaps let’s move on to Audio, really the point being here…I’m sure we agree.

Cheers

Good evening all, an Executive with a disgruntled employee story means.. what ? Sort of flexing a muscle when nobody’s watching, you and a mirror I guess. I don’t fault a person for believing what they hear. I tend to believe in electrical and mechanical science. And as with most I to Believe my audio hearing. Sounds like I stepped on a few pompous executive toes oops. Now let me tell you about the electronics and wiring in my cars….

I have been fascinated for a while with the differences between folks that try to contribute to the forum by saying, I tried this and that and this is what I found… maybe this can be helpful to you.

Versus… stuff like @1971gto455ho above who adds no actual experience to the conversation but just judgment and a put down to folks that may actually have experience to the contrary. I am always puzzled at the point. If I had tried five or six different power cords and not heard a difference, that is what I would say… this is my system, this is what I tried and heard… but why the indictment of those who have other experiences.

I can easily tell the differences among different power cords… particularly on amplifiers. It is obvious… so can every other audiophile I have ever known. I guess I just don’t get the point. For those of us that know what is going on it is like a proclamation of stupidity. But why publicly broadcast it.

When I was an executive I remember occasionally having an employee somewhere that thought he was so superior to everyone in the company and just railed at his lowly position. He would reach the breaking point and on the way out the door send out an email to  everyone in the company proclaiming how incompetent everyone else was. The rest of the executives and I would get together an never need to discuss the email… it was so clearly written by a deranged individual… it was not worth spending a minute of time on. Every bit of evidence to prove the sender had no credibility was included in the email.  I actually kept track of a few of these people… they got another job and were terminated in a very few months.

@dayglow Your experience of different outcomes when improving the input AC speaks to what someone else said about the internal power supply of the end component being more important to the equation than the power cord, et al. Any cord or cable is a purely passive device so it can only take away (filter). A well designed power supply is designed to filter, so pre-filtering might or might not have an audible affect (imo). I'm not pointing the finger at you, I just picked your response because you mentioned different end component experiences with the same source. 

Love this power cord for dummy’s stuff again and again. Especially the you have to train your ears and know your system to hear a difference BS, that equates to no one else can hear it so it doesn’t exist…dah. Good equipment isolated wiring proper gauging if necessary power conditioner. No tripping down the yellow brick road to a snake oil pit, education common sense science…Walla !!

“Do you feel that it was worth the additional investment?”

On Power amplifiers especially.  

If your equipment isn't grounded and your interconnects have poor shielding then you certainly need the best shielded power cables you can find.

You'd be better off grounding all equipment first. An RF Router Plug-in from Russ Andrews with separate grounding cables from each case back to the router should be your first consideration.

Double shielded interconnects are highly desirable.

If you still have RFI (Radio Frequency Interference) then go with shielded power cables.

@thyname Thanks for your history with Pangea. I will definitely circle back to power cords again, and I appreciate your recommendations. Saving for future use. 

I cut the power cord off of a Huge old deep freezer.

It was around 6 gauge. Ordered some good looking 

Nice quality plugs from China...... I could hear it quickly. 

To be fair, the improvement was subtle, yet noticeable if

You had a ear that was accustomed to your system. 

A welcome improvement 

@hilde45 : definitely try room treatments. My room is fully treated with GIK absorption and diffusion (including ceiling).

As for the dedicated power lines, I think to me they are a bit overrated. At least for me, and the power situation in my house. I did it twice, both times professionally. The second time I went all in with in-wall Audience Hidden Treasure cabling, cryo-treated dedicated distributor panel and separate grounding. I could barely hear any difference before and after. I do use a good power conditioner, the Shunyata Everest (along with Omega XC power cord).

Pangea power cords are adequate, but I don’t think they improve upon basic, sufficient gauge stock power cords. True story, I tried Pangea years ago on my headphones amp, and it made zero difference. That prevented me to try any power cords for about three years. Until I did.

If you are open minded, I recommend you try these two reasonably priced power cords, the first for high power amp, the second for source:

A good alternative, affordable, is anything from Pete G. at Triode Wire Labs:https://triodewirelabs.com/product-category/power-cords/

I agree 100% with Mr. @hilde45 and he is being quite humble here. Dedicated lines are the way to go. Get all the noise off the line feeding your listening space. When I built my house 25 years ago I did this. No need for conditioners and I only use distribution. 

Why don't you get a few power cords from the cable company's lending library, it's a cheap way to try a few expensive cords and some lower cost ones and find out for yourself if there is a difference.

OP, I'm a relative novice here, so here's what I am sure about:

I have put in dedicated lines. This, I am certain, is the most important thing to do.
I have hospital grade outlets.
I have a decent Adept power conditioner, power strip, and a shunyata defender. All purchased used. This was the Almarg setup and he knew what he was doing.
https://audience-av.com/conditioners/ar2p/
 
I purchased cords from Pangea, used, which are appropriate gauges for my gear. 9 gauge for power amps and 14 gauge for front end. They were not expensive, relatively.

Do I hear a difference? I am not sure, but I know that I have at least done the minimum for my system in terms of the wire thickness and shielding.

Down the road, I may try:

(a) a regenerator
(b) more expensive power cords

but until I know that everything else worth spending money on -- room treatments! -- is done, I will not return to the power cord issue.

@dayglow 

Vinnie Rossi is a US  manufecturer.

None

+2  @steakster / @facten    Some will always believe almost everything in Hi End Audio is "snake oil" a 40 year old Adcom amp with some repaired Goodwill 12 inch 3 ways is near SOTA!  IMO fear is holding most of them back which will forever keep them in mid fi purgatory.

As for power regenerators, I'm always recommending caution.  I just purchased the predecessor to your PP12--the PP10.  The PP10 is 80 lbs of copper and heavy circuitry.  It does not limit current to the amp and I have my amp plugged into it.  Your pp12 is probably the same.  However, I saw a thread where someone asked Paul McG about PP10 vs PP12 and he did say the PP10 doesn't have all the cool new features of the PP12 but may be slightly better for an amp.  I can say that I am very confident that the PP10 does not limit the amp.  PS audio power plants rectify the current and then invert it.  They have one hell of a quality inverter.  

The PP10 has an IEC connector so I use a 10 awg generic power cord to feed it.  I have a dedicated 10 awg circuit that I installed in my wall.

The PP10 has a built in Oscilloscope.  It is measuring 5% thd most evenings on teh power coming in.  

Jerry

I "upgraded" cables for amp and SACD player. Zero difference. Except I had less money.

A too-small power cable makes a big difference.  

I recommend buying a generic 10 awg cable off ebay for $50. it will likely make a big difference if your cable is too small. The difference between the generic and the $1000 cable will be much less.  In fact, I've seen expensive cables made from too-small conductors that were actually worse.

Jerry

OP,

Typically you would not plug an amp or subwoofer into a power conditioner or distributor. They typically will restrict the dynamics. A high end power cord for a subwoofer is unlikely to make a noticeable difference.

For an amp there are two things likely to produce a significant increase in sound quality… 1) a high end power cord and 2) a direct line.

Given the way you phrased your question, it sounds like you have not done this before. So, it would be good if you got a very unambiguous positive result on the first thing you do. For that reason I would recommend using all your funds to purchase a single power cord… preferably trying several different options first. Buying used can double your purchasing power (typically sold at 1/2 price). Buying in the $1 - 2K range will get you a very good cord. One likely to have a very profound effect.

It would be hard to get a good power distributor and a power cord of any quality for $1K. This would likely be spending a lot of money and get something that has almost no / little positive effect on the sound.

A direct line will have a positive effect on all components… but if you have not experienced the result in the past, it will feel like higher risk because it cannot be returned and does not go with you when you move.

A dealer should be able to lend you two or three cords to try. Most companies produce special power cords for amps… they have heavier conductors because of the greater current demand. Also the cable company and others will rent cords.

Take your time read reviews in Stereophile, The Absolute Sound, and HiFi+. Most companies have many levels. You can go to the level you can afford.

The largest selling suppliers are:

Audio Quest

Transparent

WireWorld

@maxwave Congrats on the Vinnie Rossi Brama! Italian made amps always seem to have a magical spell on vocals. As you know the better your components get the more sensitive they are to everything- cables isolation and even power conditioners. My Esoteric A 03 hates my Running Springs Audio Elgar with a passion where my Valve Audio Predator SQ would improve if the power was suspect.

@dayglow

PS Audio Perfectwave AC12 is from PS Audio manufecturer , not PI Audio

( two different manufacturers)

Thanks for your anwser : a higherend power cord , from the conditionner to my

integrated amp. would not be limited by the lowerend power cord from the wall outlet to the power conditionner. If I understand you well.

My integrated amp, will be Vinnie Rossi Brama integrated . I am still waiting fot it.

I was wondering if , according to my cables setup , It would be worthwhile to improve this dedicated power cord

jasonbourne52 = formerly roberjerman (4319 posts) Member since 2016

Reminds me of my college buddy who was on the 6 year graduation track for his BA. Never got the degree. Not sure if he learned anything - but he had a great time.

@maxwave IMO your power conditioner is dictating the SQ NOT the UberBus power cord(PS Audio AC 12) Are all 8 pc’s XLO Signature 3’s? To Answer your question a better power cord will improve your SQ even if plugged in the UberBus. Since I don’t know the level of your system I can’t make an educated guess if the Cardas would be best on the amp/conditioner or source. With my system... 1.power amp 2.source 3.preamp then conditioner

"The two posters above are imaging things. Confirmation bias at work here! As I've said many times before a component's sound starts with its power supply - not with the wire to the wall outlet. It would be a wonderful world if changing a power cord resulted in a sonic improvement. Alas"

Alas, we have jasonbourne once again with his usual stance - nothing works , everything is imagined.

Been asked only 3,000 times..buy one and find out. No one can tell you much of anything, it is system dependant and will vary. It also depends on how good your hearing is. Not trying to be an ass, although some may think I am, who cares. Only you can be the judge if something works or not. I'm sure you can just return it if you hear no difference. 

@dayglow 

I do not have a dedicated line , but I have an upgrage receptacle.

My question is about two power cords in a row.

Ps Audio perfectwave AC12 is a 8 gauge ; for my 8 outlets UberBus ( PI Audio) that is fully used.

I wonder if there might be an improvment , to use higherend power cords from the 

8 outlets UberBus to the  audio gears ?Or I am stucked to the Perfectwave AC12 audio level . ( no improvment )

@maxwave   Do you have a dedicated line? My experience tells me a dedictated line makes the most audible improvement. Then upgrade the receptacle outlet, now your ready to experiment with different power cords. 

My advice would be to not change multiple items at one time.

Rogue by 5:00 P.M.?

My system

Wall outlet > PS Audio Perfectwave AC12 > UBERBUS ( power conditioner) >
XLO Signature 3 > integrated amp.

I wonder if I upgrade the XLO Signature 3 for a , lets say , Cardas Clear Beyound;

Would it be reduced to the PS Audio AC12 level ? Or will I get the full Cardas benefit.

Is there a weak link  ?

Thanks

lalitk

... try 2-5 cable brands in your budget that offers return policy. What I hear in my system with power cables may not be true in your case. The short answer is, power cables do make a difference.

IMHO power cables are more important than any other cable. A good ac cord(s) can make or break a system but try yourself and learn.

Before this thread goes sideways, my suggestion would be to try 2-5 cable brands in your budget that offers return policy. What I hear in my system with power cables may not be true in your case. The short answer is, power cables do make a difference. To what degree, that is subject to so many variables….room acoustics, equipment, isolation and above all, our listening abilities to discern these differences. 

For starters, look into cable brands like Zavfino, Audio Sensibility, Audio Envy and Triode Wire Labs. 

Good luck! 

My observations of better power (cabling) results in:

- Less EMI: more body and texture, sound appears more effortless in general, less choked.

- Less RFI: Clearer sound, less strident, blacker background, better detail, less fatigue

- General: More oomph and punch, fatter, rounder and tighter bass, a larger soundbubble (less distortion, which kills the 3D of your system).

Plenty of power cable threads - see the link below . My experience they do make a noticeable difference in SQ , but don't expect low cost entry level ones to - tried those with zero impact. Also, power conditioning will have a positive impact, a power distributor none