Looking for a warm but yet detailed preamp to upgrade my Rouge RP1 (with NOS tubes). Rest of system is Coincident Frankenstein 300B Mk2, Zu Audio Omen Def Supreme, digital front end with PS Audio AirStream and DirectStream Sr (modified with external power supply for the analog side and different output transformers). The Rouge is a very good preamp (especially for the money), but it does definitely hold the system back at this point. I would like to add a bit more warmth of the overall sound and also add depth to the soundstage (without losing details). And I do want a remote... if nothing else, volume and mute.
Just wanted to thank @mwood for the kind words and let the audiogon community know who this humble member is, namely Marshall Wood, bass player for Tony Bennett for over a decade and for many other artists such as Dizzy Gillespie, Phil Woods, Joe Pass, and Monty Alexander.
Although we should have done so, we did not seek him out. And he did not come to us proposing any kind of deal or endorsement. He simply called us one day and bought a Rhumba Extreme, paying full price. We believe he has been a satisfied customer since, as he later upgraded to a Rhythm. OK, back to your regularly scheduled preamp programming....
@audiojan Did you ever wonder why tweeters are small and woofers are large? It's because of the different wavelengths of those sounds. When a full range driver tries to create high and low frequencies at the same time, those differences in vibration adds distortion as the volume climbs. That's the hard edge you are hearing (lack of warmth/depth etc.). You can limit that distortion with clever design work, but most of that engineering either pushes out the limit of distortion, or tries to minimize the distortion itself so that its less noticeable, but I've never heard any single driver system do justice to rock and other complex music genre's at decent volumes. The Def's might be a bit better then the Omen's, but the physical issues will remain. Keep the music simple and polite, and they can sound extremely natural. Rock out and you'll be running for the hills. That's why crossovers, dual concentric designs etc. exist. I'm glad that you are happy with the new preamp, but you did nothing to solve the fundamental issue.
@perkadin You do realize that the Omen and the Omen Def Supreme are not even the same speaker? And you might be one of the very few that ever said that Zu's lacking detail, that's what they're known for.
I have the Omen Defs also and they certainly don't lack in detail. I'll bet the Luxman will be a great choice and a good fit.I actually have the RP1 myself,which is a good fit for my system at present.
@audiojan I’ve heard the Omen and the Supreme uses a similar full range driver made in house and that’s the problem. If you like them that’s great, but asking to get more detail from them is like trying to get bass from a pair of Maggie’s. But sure, blame it on the preamp.
@audiojan, I have that Luxman piece in one of my systems, and it sounds really good, don’t be alarmed because of its “cheap” price, it performs flawlessly and enjoyable. Besides, if you change its stock tubes, it will sound even better.
I have not received a Demo' in any form of the Raven Pre-Amp', but I have followed the enjoyable to read thread about the concept through to working end model.
I find it hard to believe that there is a Amp' available off the shelf that is born from a better origin and offer the versatility built in to the design.
I strongly recommend the pursuit of learning more about this Amp' and attempting to experience it through a demonstration.
End Game sticks strongly as a term in my mind, as I own Valve Equipment produced by an individual who has long term experience, and have never considered changing it, even after 20ish years of its concept having taken place. W
Manley Jumbo Shrimp. Ran one for years with Manley Mahi Mahi monoblocks. Both are quite fast for tube gear eschewing the fat lush romantic tube sound. I moved on only because of XLR active speakers. Good luck on your adventure.
Those who have heard the Rogue RP-1 (especially with similar tubes) would be better placed to know what would sound a little warmer. I had a similar top-end issue that was resolved (to my ears) with an ARC Ref 3, despite ARC's not being noted for their warmth here. However, my starting point was a Naim 282, which is likely to have been a lot edgier than your Rogue.
I went through this same exercise back a the beginning of this year, and listened to some great preamps. You're wanting to keep the cost down to about $5,000 will knock out a couple of great options: BAT VK-80, and the Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme (not the base Rhumba....it won't compete). In the end I chose the Aric Audio Motherlode XL as I wanted the XLR connections, but if I didn't then I would have ordered the non XL version. Several months after my purchase, I am still extremely happy with the Aric Audio preamp and would do it again.
If you're looking for a "little warmth", I'd suggest a 6SN7 based preamp personally. I'd look at the already mentioned: Aric Audio, Supratek, and the Don Sachas/Lynn Olson Raven preamp. I'd highly suggest you reach out to Aric Kimball (Aric Audio), Don Sachs (Raven preamp, sold by Spatial Audio), and Mick Maloney (Supratek) to have a conversation. Aric Audio and Supratek make a bunch of preamps, they could lead you in the right direction on their products.
For transparency, I own an Aric Audio Motherlode XL preamp.....and Aric certainly can customize his preamps, and he has adjustable gain controls.
@snapoli2interesting you mention the Luxman. I just spoke to my local dealer (whom I really trust, have done business with him for well over 20 years) and that's exactly what he recommended
May borrow one from him after the long weekend and listen
I really enjoyed the Cary Slp-98 but my fave yet is the Luxman 38uc… i dont know how else to describe it other than it brought the soul and emotion out of everything I listened to.
@kennycthe Coincident preamps don’t come with a remote. I frequently adjust volume based on the track so this is something I’m not willing to compromise on
Coincident sells direct (save money from marketing cost) or buy used. If you go this direction, maybe they can offer tube rolling advice also if needed.
I have the Aric Motherlode top end preamp. Also have the Audio GD 10 tube preamp as well in one of my ancillary two channel systems. I second the endorsement of both. Aric Audio is a USA small business. Audio GD is Chinese made and imported by Underwood Hi-Fi.
The Don Sachs preamp is just the VTA SP14 in a prettier enclosure. The SP14, preassembled and tested, with remote control, is $1900 new. $1450 as a kit.
Surprised at no mention of Modwright yet. I have the Modwright LS300 (dual mono balanced) and the choice of rectifiers and 9-pin tubes allows a lot of tuning to get to warm or "meat on the bones" if that is what you want. The new LS99 is a scaled down version, with a single rectifier tube, but the same general topology, so I'd expect similar results. I'm very happy with mine, great sounding (yes, detailed/transparent), terrific remote, just a very solid unit, with great support.
In my LTA Microzotl MZ3 I have (2) 6SN7 Sylvania GT and or 6SN7 Sylvania W with both tubes being ’metal base’ are quite special with the Micrzotl circuit. And in the 12AT7 position I have (2) Telefunken ECC801S /12AT7WA’s. and the synergy is again, fantastic.
My interconnects are 聖Hijiri HCI-R10 and the synergy is outstanding with this preamp and tubes. The LTA Microzotl MZ3 with these additions provide open, detailed, airy, holographic, quiet background and a wide sound stage with an uncanny overall balance in the sound it puts out. The ’openness’ I hear with this combination is what I’d define as exactly what @audiojandescribed above as ’meat on the bones’ midrange.
Now there’s one more thing I have to mention. I snagged @grannyring’s old Clayton Audio modified S-40 amplifier that came up for sale some months ago and it was a perfect synergistic match with my gear. I couldn’t be more happier with the results.
So @grannyring, if you read this, Thank you very much for what you do and share here on audiogon.
An assembled SP14 with remote is a terrific value for under $2K, IMO. The SP14 board is the same one Don Sachs used for years and it's very well designed, with regulated filament and high-voltage supplies. I've also found that the specific operating points chosen for the tubes makes for a particularly good-sounding Aikido.
If you're into a kit, try the Vacuum Tube Audio SP14. I did mine up with Mundorf Ag/Au caps, Khozmo remote attenuator, Vishay resistors and NOS 6sn7 tubes. Fits my system's sound like a glove and it's been absolutely trouble free for many years!
Yes, that looks like a very nice design, and not as expensive as I thought. Wonder what the harmonic cancellation sounds like (assuming it’s a push-pull topology). I still think the Aikido is one of the "great ideas" of audio and considering how cheaply it can be built, and how easily it can be upgraded to give stellar performance, it’s also a great bargain. ;-)
@dogearedaudioIf you haven’t already, check out the Raven pre that Don has co-designed for Spatial Audio — it goes way beyond what he’s done with his prior preamps albeit at a somewhat dearer price point. There’s another thread here that has a lot more info on the specifics of the design.
The SLP-98 is a nice preamp, but somewhat hampered, IMO, by the simple parallel 6SN7 configuration and the stock output capacitors. I tried many tube and cable combinations with mine and achieved decent results, but by comparison the Aikido 6SN7 is much "faster" and more transparent, offering more information and liquidity while maintaining the linearity and naturalness of the 6SN7. Part of that is due to the noise-cancelling properties of the Aikido, as well as the SRPP-like configuration. If you like the Cary but haven't heard an Aikido-style preamp I think you'd be surprised at the comparison. It's too bad Don Sachs doesn't make his anymore. An assembled and upgraded SP14 is a close contender, though.
@avanti1960Cary Audio SLP 98 is the ticket between warm, dynamic and detailed and responds well to tube upgrades, e.g. Sylvania GTA.
I can make my Cary SLP-98 preamp sound like four different tube preamps by simply changing the 6SN7 tubes and capacitors. And, it responds to different interconnect cables when the rest of the system is reasonably transparent.
TUBES:
The original stock EH Electro Harmonix 6SN7 tubes always seemed a tad lean.
For more detail, neutral midrange, vintage 6SN7 Sylvania GT work okay
New manufacturer TungSol 6SN7GTB, more weighty, less detail, tad more grainy. Not as refined as my vintage or others below.
For more midrange weight and body, velvety, PSVANE CV181s do the trick.
In between, my mothballed sets of TS Full Music 6SN7s are very nice.
ICs:
Having tried several different pairs of interconnects with my SLP-98 - Apature silver-over-copper, Analysis Plus OCC copper, various Cardas Grade 1 copper, and others... each provided different results as well.
Caps:
Choose your flavor, a whole other chapter on different sounds with this preamp.
In summary, when someone indicates lean or full or weighty sound from any 6SN7 preamp I’ve tried, there are other factors involved to yield different results too fwiw.
"I've never heard the Cary SLP98, but I, personally, do not consider my SLP05 to be warm."
I have a Cary SLP98 and it is warm, but also rather thick and sluggish, and was replaced by my own version of a Don Sachs-style Aikido 6SN7 preamp, which is much faster and more transparent but still rich and warm. Unfortunately Don has stopped making his Aikido preamps, and the Tubes4HiFi SP14 it was based on is good but really a DIY project and not as refined as Don's version. For the OP, I would look at a 6SN7-based preamp for the combination of heft, detail and complete lack of distortion that that tube exhibits. The LTA MicroZOTL, Icon's Pure Valve, even the Black Ice Fusion.
Aric Audio Motherlode II should be high on your list of considerations. Call him to discuss exactly what you seek...his customer service is as legendary as his tube gear.
Ok, so I guess I need to add some details. Warmth to me is more "meat on the bones" in the midrange. It’s not the low-end. The Rogue (and I apologize for the initial misspelling) is a great preamp, especially for the price, but it’s a bit lean in the midrange (and yes, I have tried different NOS tubes and although better, not all the way to where I want it to be). The other area where it falls a bit short is soundstage depth. The width is ok, but it’s lacking depths. This is not the speakers or the room. With the Gryphon Diablo 300 (way overkill with the ZU’s) I had that, so it’s definitely possible.
As to the nonsense about power condition limiting the current etc. 8W 300B monoblocks doesn’t draw that much current to start with and if the power conditioner (PS Audio PP12) doesn’t limit the Gryphon, I really don’t think it’ll limit the Coindicent Frankensteins...
The Zu Omen Def Supreme can indeed sound harsh unless you set them up correct. It does take lots of tweaking to get them just right. And I’ve done that. With other amps, I can get them to sound almost sweet, just not as seductive as with the SET amps. Trying other preamps, I can change the sound, but again, I haven’t found "THE ONE" yet (hence the post here).
@corelli, I should have mentioned in my previous post that I have (2) subwoofers in my LTA MICROZOTL MZ3 PREAMPLFIER as it has left and right preouts and I can custom tailor the bass. But I have to agree with you, an LTA preamp sounds nothing like a warm sounding Luxman for example. I appreciate your clarity.
The LTA may be a great preamp for some but is clearly not what the OP is seeking.
I would agree that if the OP is at all troubled by too much edge or brightness this is probably a function of his speakers and will probably not be mitigated by a new preamp. You need to fully love your speakers from the get go. Component matching beyond should be subtle tuning of the system to taste.
Lastly, I have heard several speakers with more than enough bass that had an intolerable edge. I do not agree that brightness is a function of poor bass response.
I think you need to define what "warm" means to you. If you are referring to a bottom-up presentation, you have been given some good choices and might even give MacIntosh a listen. From your description it looks like you are looking for the ideal preamp. It's almost like asking for a car with a tight suspension that is responsive and corners well, yet is quiet and comfortable. Good luck on your search!
I replaced my Luxman C900 with an Aric Audio tube preamp for more warmth in my system. @aricaudiowill listen to you desired sound qualities and provide guidance as well.
This was one of the few upgrades that actually made me money as it replace a preamp, that cost more than double.
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