Vinyl playback - lack of bass?

I believe digital usually gets more pronounced bass. I don't think you are wrong.

ok, it might be potentially the source material. I think Ill need to find another song/album to compare with and play them one after the other to do an A/B test.

@bubba12 thanks, I kind of had a feeling about this as well.

I would not agree with the idea that digital recordings have more bass than their analog counterpart. Aside from purposely over engineered or compressed digital release, I would argue that if your bass is light when playing analog it is due to the choice in turntable, phono stage and cartridge. In theory, if the recording version is the same for analog and digital, they should not sound so different. Only in the subtleties that lend one to be more enjoyable to you.

Digital is supposed to be able to handle more bass than vinyl, but I’m pretty sure in reality that capability is not utilized very often. I have a few records where I have both analog and digital copies and I really don’t hear any difference in bass response between any of them.

I agree that bass response in older records can be very lacking. That seemed to start to improve in the early seventies but didn’t seem to become consistent until the eighties.

Also a lot of rooms will accentuate the mid range, so some room treatments and or room correction can help balance out the sound.

Recordings:

Analog versions differ vs Digital versions differ

= apples and oranges 

There are a lot of variables.  The mastering of every recording is different.  Many, if not most recordings, and especially digital streams are compressed.  Phono cartridges are not perfectly linear.  There are extra stages of amplification in the analogue signal path.  Then there is the RIAA equalization curve that is never perfect.  So, things will sound different.

If anything, I always thought that Rega's design philosophy, ultra light weight minimalist construction with emphasis on rigidity and structural strength, might possibly result in a slightly reticent bass response. No matter what is the cause, even if it is nothing but audiophilia, it would be difficult to ferret out. I do not agree that the difference is purely the difference between analog and digital.  The best analog bass response can be superior to digital in terms of tonal richness, differentiation of instruments, and sense of depth.

Components make the difference... when the same source material is used (same mastered recordings).

It is your turntable/ cartridge / phonostage. I used to own Olympica 3 speakers and a Pass 350 amp with Simm DAC and CD player. My turntable sounded better than streaming or CDs. With more bass. Simm is detailed oriented and lean sounding. I highly recommend a high quality tube phono stage and turntable. 

My current system the analog and digital legs sound the same... by design. 

I highly recommend being very careful when using subs, They are really easy to turn up too loud or cross over to high and end up negatively impacting the overall sound. It can confuse the central image, disrupt the sound stage. I have frequently walked into a system with a subwoofer(s)... and instantly go over and turn them down... to the delight of the owner. 

My vinyl set up has as much bass if not more as my digital setup. I don't find analog reproduction lacking any punch. My Thoren 320 MK III TT with Benz Micro cartridge and Audio Research PH5 phono amp provide plenty of boom. Recently played Beethoven's 5th and 6th symphonies and there was plenty of slam. My preamp, amp and speakers are Cary Audio SLP 03, Mark Levinson 23.5, and Thiel 3.6. I think your cartridge, phono preamp may have to do something about it.

@OP You need a better cartridge. Or at least a different cartridge. Ultimately a better turntable will help too.

Hey @skads_187, you mentioned they were older albums. Were those albums on the thin side compared to your newer thick 180g vinyl? Perhaps your VTA needs to be checked. If the pivot end of your tonearm is raised too high, it can lean out the sound, and if the pivot side is too low, it can overemphasize the bass. Check that out before you make too many changes. Also what resistance settings are you running on your phono stage? Too high of resistor value could also lean out the sound. If you’re running it about 1K, maybe try 470K, or even lower until it sounds correct.

Ok so no secret digital has lower frequency range. However digital bass is more of a slam, as in instant and quickly gone  whereas from a tt your bass freq won't go as low however most interpret it more bass because it will sound fuller, heavier even tho it in the higher frequency range. So measurably yeah your digital should go lower, but your impression should be they are about the same. Obviously there are variables as mentioned as to the turntable, the stylus, the phono  the LPs themselves. I have  few different turntables, one is a Rega P3 w orton black, I do not have a lack of bass compared to my digital setup. Also that seems like plenty of time for your stylus to beak in. All 3 of my stylus took less than 10 hrs to break-in (and yes part of the break-in was bass) after that I never noticed a sonic change. I'd keep looking into. Best of luck 

You have a great system there.  You do NOT need a new TT and cartridge.  Ignore any suggestion to that.  I would recommend you double check your VTA and your tracking force.  Also, maybe experiment with settings on your phono pre amp.  I have noticed that some vinyl versions of the same song lack some deep bass compared to their digital versions.  I think that can be from the mastering as often they are different.  However, for the most part I find my setup very similar in the bass region as I compare analog to digital. 

Op, for my setup, my vinyl side (Hana ML > Aria) is slightly warmer, with slightly stronger bass than my digital side (Aurender > Qutest). I have a SimAudio amp & BHK pre with warm Brimar NOS tubes.

I believe it is component and/or settings dependent. 

Fully agree with @lewn. Not related to digital vs analog IMHO. Your set up is very good. Likely the Rega with Ania cartridge lacks what you are looking for. I bought a Rega P10 last year and was very disappointed , notably because of the lack of bass compared to my older Heybrook TT2 with a Hana SL. Sold it to someone who had a P6 with an Ania cartridge who was finding his P6 too bright. Now have a Linn LP12 /Arko with a Pure Fidelity Stratos and it is a fantastic match with great detail and punch.

IMO, 30 hours on a cartridge is barely broken in. Reevaluate after about 50 hours running near the high end of the VTF. I think my current cart sounded best at about 100 hours, but I’m not positive about that.  Also, sometimes the table can be very sensitive to what it sits on. Experiment with platforms

Bass on LP's is often summed to avoid cartridge tracking problems. Witness the early pressings of Led Zeppelin II where Bob Ludwig had to re-cut the lacquers. Cheap cartridges couldn't track the bass modulations.

I always assumed the bass was not as pronounced on vinyl because of the physical limitations of a plastic disk having grooves that have to satisfy the both the high end and low end of the spectrum (isn’t that why the RIAA curve was used?).

And yes, digital recordings if they were mastered to be pure digital can get down to inaudible frequencies that you just feel.  It becomes more pronounced if you use subwoofers.   Since I have the cutover frequency of my subwoofers at 50hz, I generally don’t hear anything from them with either analog or analog digitized, unless the material has been remastered.  

There are SO MANY variables to weigh and consider here in this very general A/B question that it amounts to another "is digital better than vinyl" argument.  Generally speaking, when I (and friends) listen to my rig, vinyl always provides a wee bit more but, more importantly, more than wee bit cleaner, tighter and more accurate bass response.  I've done several A/B tests with my rig, using copies of well-recorded & engineered CD albums and the same well recorded & engineered good pressing of the same album to test what I thought I was hearing in this regard, and vinyl always, IMHO, produces the best sound fidelity.  Is this because I'm not a bass head, per se, attributable to neuroaudiological conditioning, cleaner vinyl, better vinyl pressings, etc.  Again, too many variables to arrive at anything other than generalizations.  To each his own!  Vive la difference!

Would you consider adding a quality graphic equalizer to boost the bass on your turntable?  

This reminds me of my earlier days in this hobby where I would drive myself to distraction listening for the most subtle aspects of my audio system. In those days my hearing  was certainly better than it is now.  I remember that I could hear a noticeable difference when I replaced my Naim Audio NAP 110 with an NAP 160, and a much more noticeable difference when I replaced the NAP 160 with a pair of NAIM NAP 135 monoblocks.  Then there was the dramatic difference when I went from my Rotel RCD855 CD player $400 to my Naim CDi CD player $4000. 

As for the differences between analogue and digital, IME analogue barely inches out digital in regard to which sounds more like live music. Neither, completely accurately reproduces the experience of listening to a live performance, but in some instances they can come amazingly close to doing so. 

Interestingly  enough,  one of the best audio experiences I've ever had was listening to a live studio performance of Mary Chapin Carpenter at the local public radio station back in the early 1990's, on my analogue Naim Audio NAT 01 FM tuner.  To this day it remains one of the best musical performances I have ever heard. 

Of course, digital is so convenient to use with all of the available streaming  platforms in the modern day,  and sonically it's light years better sounding than it was when it first became mainstream back in the 1980's. 

However, I still keep my old SYSTEMDEK IIX around because I guess I'll always love record albums, hearkening back to my first audio system in the 1970's, when I was  still a teenager.  Regardless of the medium, or the audio system that its played backed on, I listen less critically now, yet, find myself enjoying music more than ever. 😊

This is not my experience. Prior to improving the isolation of my turntable there I felt there was an advantage to the quality of sound between analog and digital above 65-70 dbs. 
 

I has an HRS isolation system and that is no longer the case. I think bass can vary from recording to recording and generally find it better in the analog format for my system. 
 

My system consists of Rega, Moon and Sonus faber as well. 

I have Simaudio 740p balanced into Simaudio 760a into Daedalus speakers. My analog is VPI prime, AT 760 SLC into Ayre P-5xe balanced. My digital is Marantz SACD 30n se into pre se. I have a Line Magnetic LM-515 CD player that I run balanced into my pre. My analog has considerably more bass. My Marantz seems rolled on both extremes. My Line Magnetic CD player has good bass and extension on both ends. I think Simaudio sounds better with balanced inputs. But Simaudio is definitely details oriented and kinda thin sounding. I have started a different thread asking about help with this. Almost lacking dynamic punch. 

Yeah, I noticed this a while ago so I just keep a Schiit Loki Mini in the final stage of my vinyl setup to give a little bass boost as well as to help correct any less than perfect recordings. It's a really transparent EQ. 

Yeah, I noticed this a while ago so I just keep a Schiit Loki Mini in the final stage of my vinyl setup to give a little bass boost as well as to help correct any less than perfect recordings. It's a really transparent EQ. 

Yeah, I noticed this a while ago so I just keep a Schiit Loki Mini in the final stage of my vinyl setup to give a little bass boost as well as to help correct any less than perfect recordings. It's a really transparent EQ. 

Many older records were light on bass.  To really check your equipment, you would have to compare many albums to their equivalent CDs.   Many of the CDs were remastered, so, you will not be able to tell unless you use many test cases.  Concentrate on music that is known for being light on bass.   In addition, CDs usually play at louder volume than records, so, make sure you even out the loudness when doing your comparison.  In my personal experience, records do not have less bass than their matching CD.  In fact, many records sound "thicker" than their matching CD.  Some CDs sound "thin" to me relative to the original record. 

Many older records in general can sound thin and dull.

Suggest you try newer records to compare. On my setup, my TT has just as much bass as my digital, and even my tuner (yeah, I still listen to radio).

Just got an anniversary vinyl of Daft Punk. It has just as much bass as the digital version. On my system sounds better overall over the digital version. 

Think it's either your cartridge setup, or phono-pre setup. Play around with it, till you find what you are missing. 

One of the many reasons my vintage Garrard TT and system components aren’t on display collecting dust anymore, there comes a time said the CD player to the cassette and R/R players…..lol 

Cheers 

I haven't read every single comment but if I just go on intuition alone I really feel like vinyl simply doesn't have the bandwidth for it.  It seems like it's why we didn't have subs (to a large degree) back then.  But I'm not 100% sure and could google it but sometimes I like to pretend we don't have google and such.  lol

I agree with the many comments on set-up and media. One thing I've observed in all media; CD, SACD, Digital and Vinyl, is that the source media is often a big factor in how prominent the bass is presented. Try playing some R&B vinyl and see if you get a strong bass response; something like Luther Vandross.

Next reverse your test, once you identify a vinyl source with strong bass response then play the same music on digital or CD and see what your results are.

I agree with the many comments on set-up and media. One thing I've observed in all media; CD, SACD, Digital and Vinyl, is that the source media is often a big factor in how prominent the bass is presented. Try playing some R&B vinyl and see if you get a strong bass response; something like Luther Vandross.

Next reverse your test, once you identify a vinyl source with strong bass response then play the same music on digital or CD and see what your results are.

Great amp , and yes the cartridge needs more time breaking in .

To test old or original 60's rock vinyl for bass try a testing your original release with a new " remastered " one , say like the Beatles remastered by Giles Martin .

A real good test would be to play The Cowboy Junkies album All That Reckoning  , if you don't have bass slam then there might be a problem in your cartridge setup . 

One of my favorite carts to throw on is a Shure M44G Club/Party unit. Makes me want to spin some tunes after a tinkering session. 
* this is genre specific and we never touch the good stuff during these regressions. 

Thanks all, so this is what I am going to do based on what I have read here.

1. I need to do a better test. I think someone gave me an idea with Daft Punk. I might test 1 track from Random Access Memories and compare both digital vs LP.

2. I need to re look at my capacitance settings. I remember with the 310lp I think I was confused as the manual suggested to use 0pF for MC cartridges, however, for the Ania, it states to use 1000 pF, which the 310lp only has 3 options, 0pF, 100pF and 470pF. At first I thought 100pF was the 1000 one since it was missing. Ill double check what its set at, so not sure at the moment if it should be on 470 or 0.

3. I think I should give the Ania a true test and wait until its fully broken in. I know the store did indeed tell me after 100 hours it will change. Im hoping to hear something at 50 Hours, fingers crossed.

4. maybe its time to change the phono first (before the TT, not sure if I want to change it yet, since I haven't used it much). Im not sure if maybe the pass labs xp15 is a good option (read reviews that it has a warmer sound than the xp17) This may need another discussion thread on its own in the near future.

I think it’s not a great idea to change a component while another component is breaking in. Have patience. 

fyi, just for giggles, Once counter example -- I have an original 1st edition mint British Pressing of Jimi Hendrix Electric Ladyland - the one that was originally mixed by Hendrix - back & forth - speaker to speaker even on the same guitar riff. It had so much dynamic range (peaks and valleys on the Vinyl) that it caused the cheaper record players back in the day to skip.  On the second pressing and the USA pressings, they had to compressed it, and in addition, when the album was mastered in the USA, they could not "understand"/"follow" Hendrix mixing directions, so, the subsequent pressings sound very different.  On my original Album, If you play Voodoo Child (slight return), the bass is incredible.  There is no CD, nor subsequent vinyl pressing that even comes close to the sound of that Album.  So, trying to compare Vinyl to CD includes lots and lots of variables.  As you can see, even vinyl to vinyl with subsequent pressings can be an issue... 

@chayro yes, good point, for sure it wouldnt be right away anyway. I would need to wait for a good condition/deal on a used xp15 anyway. Ill do some research, it could take many months. I just assumed that the pass labs xp15 is most likely a better phono all around and yes a different sound quality for sure. Supposedly the xp15 gives a bit of that tube likeish sound.

Because digital has a brick wall filter at around 22Hz, the response stops dead at the frequency.  Harry Pearson first noticed that at least early CDPs lacked what he called "downward dynamic range", perhaps because of the filter effect.  After HP brought it up, I cannot avoid hearing the effect of which he speaks.  Yes, digital goes very low until it doesn't.  This is not what happens in live music in any real world venue. I cannot get away from the fact that I hear what he was talking about.

@bbarten If you think of the pop/rock albums of the 70’s in particular, they were generally played in cars on either 8-track or cassette.  The speakers of the time were placed in trunks on the rear package shelf, so they emphasized the bass.

Here’s the technical reason from vintagevinylnews.

During this process, low frequencies (like bass tones) are reduced, and high frequencies (like cymbals and snares) are amplified.

This allows for narrower grooves on the record, which increases play time and reduces distortion from needle movement in lower frequency ranges.

When we play these records back on a turntable or phonograph, we need to reverse this frequency reduce high ones, and enhance low ones – so that what we hear accurately replicates the original recording.

This is precisely where an RIAA equalized preamplifier comes into play; it corrects these altered frequencies according to the standard RIAA curve.

So the gentleman above who recommended an equilizer has it exactly right.   Your phono preamp is applying reverse RIAA curve, so it’s hardly heresy to jack up the bass if it suits your mood.

Look at you manual again , you should be setting the cartridge to 1K resistance . J12 & J30

Also check your gain setting  , should be 60 or 66 db .

@tomrk Right on!  I think I had all the bass that could be had in a beetle with four Jensen 6x9's. lol  Yeah the groove thing is my basis and of course the RIAA EQ...this is what the sections in integrated are for, right?  Or standalones.  I guess the EQ is a constant?  Doesn't seem too cool really.  he he...thanks for the great info!  Ever noticed how some outlets boosts the bass more than original?  Like some radio channels and such?  Not true to origin but I like it.  Sorry purists!

@bbarten If you want an album with some good solid bass, listen to the Styx Equinox album (IMHO their best album), especially the song "Midnight Ride".  "Suite Madam Blue" is a great song as well.

And if you turn up the bass,  it's your system, it's your music, and whatever sounds good to you is the main thing.

bbarten, To answer what I think was a question, yes, the RIAA curve is the industry standard for recording and reproducing music on vinyl.  All modern phono stages to be used with magnetic cartridges contain an inverse RIAA filter in the signal path. You would not like to listen to the output of a magnetic cartridge through a simple amplification stage. The filter in a phono stage boosts the input bass frequencies and progressively attenuates higher frequencies to achieve a flat output response, so it probably is not the prime cause of an unsatisfactory bass response.

From Wiki: "The RIAA curve is an equalization standard used for vinyl records, where low frequencies are reduced and high frequencies are boosted during recording, and the opposite occurs during playback. This process improves sound quality, allows for longer recording times, and reduces noise from the record itself."

Attenuating the bass frequencies during recording permits the bass content to take up less space on the LP and makes it easier to track during playback, among other things.

@lewm

Because digital has a brick wall filter at around 22Hz, the response stops dead at the frequency.  ... digital goes very low until it doesn't.  This is not what happens in live music in any real world venue. I cannot get away from the fact that I hear what he was talking about.

I respect your analogue expertise, but your digital explanation seems to have a brick wall of its own!  Brick-wall filters have a very sharp cutoff ...

True, CD quality digital (Red Book specification) is sampled 44,100 times per second.  The highest sinusoidal frequency this can represent is about 22-kHz according to the Nyquist theorem.  To avoid digital artifacts above this frequency, early players did indeed incorporate a very sharp "brick-wall" filter at about 22-kHz to avoid a phenomenon called aliasing.  Smarter manufacturers like Philips expanded the sample rate on playback by creating four samples for every one on the disk.  Philips used a much gentler filter with much better sound quality even on their first players!  This is known as oversampling and is common today.

Of course, much higher recording sample rates are also used today (high-res) and these shift the filter requirement to much higher frequencies.

The ultimate digital format for playback is Direct Stream Digital which starts at 2.8224 MHz and only needs a very gentle low-pass filter to get rid of noise in the mega-Hz frequencies.

There is absolutely no technical reason why digital needs any low frequency cut-off at all. It can simply encode frequencies down to 0-Hz or DC!  So I think you have confused 22-Hz with 22-kHz.

Vinyl record playback systems, on the other hand, have to deal with all sorts of low frequency mechanical resonances which have to be kept below the human limit of audibility generally accepted to be 20-Hz.  I am sure you can list more of these than I can, but top of my list is tonearm resonance, then floor-borne shaking, bearing noise, platter resonance, chassis resonance, mounting board resonance, etc.  To avoid overloading speakers and amplifiers with inaudible low frequencies, analogue playback systems incorporate high pass filters a bit below 20-Hz.

Finally, when a vinyl master is made, the engineer tries to squeeze the grooves as tightly together as reasonably possible to make maximum use of the available 'real estate'.  Infrasonic frequencies would have very large excursions so are filtered out before even reaching the vinyl master.  So I would say "vinyl goes quite low until it doesn't"

It is tough for LPs to have loud, deep bass as it required large displacements (L-R & Up-Down) of the groove.  No such limitations in Digital.

If you have an LP and the digital remaster it would not surprise me to find that the CD/SACD has louder bass.

I don't know that I have particularly noticed it but I have CD, SACD, original vinyl and reissue vinyl of LSC-2446 - Scheherazade ~ Reiner, Chicago Symphony I'll listen tomorrow.

@lewm 

I just randomly picked a mid-price CD Player - it happened to be the Marantz CD 60 - and digital playback is down to 2-Hz.  No brick wall at 22-Hz

• USB DSD: 2Hz - 50kHz (-3dB)
  USB PCM: 2Hz - 50kHz (-1.5dB)
  CD: 2Hz - 20kHz

I agree with others that your cart may just require more breaking in. 

I'll also share that I had the same feeling when I switched to a Hana ML going into my Sutherland 20/20. Added in a Bob's Devices Sky 20-S and Boom! Nice full bass was back. Not sure if that will work for your system, but it worked for me. 

I haven’t “confused” anything. I was referencing early production cdp’s. I thought I said that. Also, of course the term “brick wall” is a metaphor for very steep slope. I probably was remiss in not acknowledging that SACD and DSD ameliorated the problem. But I still hear an unnatural abrupt cutoff of extreme low bass with physical discrete CDs. For whatever reason.

Research doesn’t support me. I was wrong apparently about the low frequency limit built into RBCDs, but I still hear a less natural extreme low frequency response with RBCDs. I have to re-read some 1970s literature to remember why.