Vinyl playback - lack of bass?

@jorgjean  I think Ill need to make a new post. One thing that I did realize very recently was that I upgraded my amp, speakers and preamp in the past 1-1.5 years, but now my source components need upgrading as well to get its full potential. Let me know which turntable suggestions you have? I would probably looking in the price range equivalent to the rega p8, as that might have been my next step.

Vinyl can produce at least as good a bass as digital if you compare same recordings and you invest a lot. Conclusion it is your analog rig that falls short. Rega has a good price/value relationship bit is not known for producing powerfull bass. 

Could be a VTA adjustment?

I recently went from a VPI with 20 lb platter to a Rega Naia package. The first thing I noticed was much tighter bass with the Naia. So TT mass and bass are independent. Additionally, consider the difference between quality and quantity of bass. I prefer less clean bass over lots of muddy bass, but that is just my preference.

Adding a SUT added more volume (in sense of space, not loudness) to the sound.

Bottom line, you can shape TT sound at lots of places.

@grk  Thanks, I will check them out. Looking at their site, I have some similar local companies that might compare to that one. 

Well, I have been quite impressed with the Veritas Praesto power cords. I have them on  a preamp and phono stage.Definitely a bump up on the upper and lower registers, plus made my system even quieter, which I thought was already very quiet. They have a 30-day return policy, so little to lose.

@merland100 oh yeah, the 810lp is 2 jumps higher than mine and of course the TT as well. I might look into the P8 or P10 or go another route entirely. Im not sure yet. 891 must also sound really nice!

@grk I have to check, I believe I still need to upgrade my phono stage power cord, let me know if you have any suggestions, I was thinking of going with a BIS audio cable. For my preamp, I have a Shunyata Venom if I recall correctly. 

skads_187. A high mass turntable will give you more bass. With that said, you may want to try a different power cord on your phono stage and preamp.

I have a Rega Planar 10 with the Apheta 3 cartridge and Moon 810LP phono preamp and my bass on most vinyl is generally a little fuller than the digital counterpart played through the Moon 891 fed through Roon Nucleus via an AudioQuest Diamond USB cable. The digital has perfect bass and sounds best through this set up and not at all bass deficient, but the vinyl is a little more full and reviews of the Rega Planar 10 confirm that.

Too many variables to suggest your hypothesis. It’s suggesting digital has more bass, but vs. what turntable, cartridge, recording? You can’t make such a blanket statement unless you’re simply attempting to stir the pot with another digital is superior to analog narrative. Such threads here get old. Besides, those of us who prefer vinyl aren’t convinced that what you’re suggesting is true. So, you haven’t convinced anyone. Least of all a dyed in the wool vinyl enthusiast. 

There is one high-pass filter that I forgot about - the loudspeakers.

I have a Velodyne 18" subwoofer with 1250-Watts RMS power.  It only goes down to about 15-Hz +-3db.

Although my CD player may go down to 2-Hz, even a big subwoofer cannot get close to producing much useful output at anything close to those frequencies.  Velodyne suggest useful output down to 8-Hz.

There are a couple of pipe-organs with 64' pipes which resonate at 8-Hz.  One is down the road from me, in the Sydney Town Hall.  As luck would have it, my partner has just bought a 3-set CD collection including two CDs made with this organ.

@stevencason I think everything should be setup properly, the technician from the store I bought it from set it all up for me. 

for ultimate performance, high mass rules…

Not necessarily, vibration control in top TTs may sometimes be better.  I like both.

@kennyc 

Interesting that Pro-Ject followed Rega down the lightweight turntable path, but Pro-Ject's Signature 12.2 table weighs in at 37-kgs, versus the Rega Planar 6's very lightweight 5-kgs!

My reading is that, for ultimate performance, high mass rules.  There is simply more stuff to absorb unwanted vibrations.  But this means higher costs for materials, finishing, supports and shipping.

I guess Linn is a bit beefier than Rega, but is not really in the heavyweight class.

Rega is at the cutting edge of lightweight technology and is known for its quickness and are known to NOT have a prestigious bass, unlike mass loaded turntables which are known for ample bass.   

I went from Exact to Ania and there was a noticeable less bass with Ania.

MM to MC?  Maybe.  Same Phono pre but different setting = different gain?  Maybe.

I had some boominess with some recordings on Exact.  I miss some punch sometimes with Ania.

$0.02

I scanned through the first 15 responses or so but didn't see this mentioned.

It is possible the cartridge is slightly out of tune by that I mean VTA may be a bit too high.  You could try lowering the back of the tonearm slightly to see if it makes a difference (either positive or negative).  The ability to fine tune the cartridge is one of the things I like best about vinyl.

@vair68robert  yes , correct, which I used to have the Aria before. Hence the confusion it caused me when i moved over. I do indeed have 66dB setting on balanced connection. 

Wow, that Tavish looks nice! I never heard of them before.

187

The Rega phono preamp is the first time I've seen capacitance loading on or for an MC cartridge as well as the resistance loading .

For you reference I have a Tavish Designs Adagio phono preamp .

187

please accept my apology , I am 100% wrong in my hazy thinking , you are correct using 100 ohm loading .

the 1,000pf input capacitance loading is one of the jumper settings on a Rega phono preamp for MC cartridges . 

you should also be using the 66db gain setting on the Moon , the Rega phono pre's high is 69db .

@vair68robert that is the issue sadly.

Capacitance Loading options are only 0pF, 100pF and 470pF and i was told to use 0pF and was told its not supposed to be that high for an MC cartridge, they were confused. the max i could try is 470pF, but not sure how much that will change. Also, I looked at the pass labs xp15 and that one also doesnt go to 1000pF either. I was told this setting is mostly for MM cartridges and not for MC. Can someone confirm this?

187

per Rega MC cartridges manual capacitance should be set to 1k , check it out and see if you hear the difference .

also what about your gain setting ?

@vair68robert  just to add, i just found info that I had asked in the past. So Im pretty sure i have Capacitance Loading set to 0pF as per the recommendation in the manual from Moon. they also re-confirmed this with me. And Impedance/Resistance Loading set to 100 Ω

@vair68robert 

Im going to open it up and check. Here is where Im confused and because of my bad memory, I dont remember, but I know Ive had this discussion possibly with moon directly. Resistance loading : J12 and J30 is 1k but in Ω .

Capacitance Loading options : 0pF, 100pF and 470pF

From the Rega site in regards to the Ania:

Impedance 100 Ω
Capacitance 1000 pF

So Im assuming the Impedance = Resistance loading since its measured in Ω

@lewm 

I haven’t “confused” anything. I was referencing early production cdp’s. I thought I said that. Also, of course the term “brick wall” is a metaphor for very steep slope. I probably was remiss in not acknowledging that SACD and DSD ameliorated the problem. But I still hear an unnatural abrupt cutoff of extreme low bass with physical discrete CDs. For whatever reason.

Research doesn’t support me. I was wrong apparently about the low frequency limit built into RBCDs, but I still hear a less natural extreme low frequency response with RBCDs. I have to re-read some 1970s literature to remember why.

No, you simply said digital!

To me this is the perfect example of confirmation bias.  You read something in Stereophile decades ago and now authoritatively state that digital has a low frequency cut-off at 22-Hz, which is completely untrue.  You only have to understand how digital is formatted to understand this.  Or to check out a specification. To the best of my knowledge, there simply is no low frequency limit built into RBCDs, yet you repeat "the low frequency limit built into RBCDs".

You claim you hear this when you go to a concert, so it must be true, but it simply does not exist!

Now it may well be that your digital playback system incorporates a high pass filter somewhere in the chain.  DC offsets are not good for speakers, after all.

This is in no way an attack on you personally, because I have high regard for your analogue contributions, it is just an illustration of how audiophile myths can easily become lore.

@tomrk I love Styx and I think that might be the only LP I don't have of theirs. lol  I'm going to check it out though.  Not to get too far off topic but have you listened to Crash of the Crown.  It took me a minute but some of the tunes are really good imo.  Def a dif kind of Styx but pretty interesting.

alright, so I did some testing last night on 2 songs.

Daft Punk album. With the LP version it was very similar in bass vs tidal. one song had more pronounced bass on the LP version and another on the streaming version, but very very slight. Seems like maybe the last few albums I spun on record caused me to think there was a lack of bass.

When I said older it was 80s rock. So I know one Skid Row I had listened to a few months ago and the one from 2 nights ago lacked some bass, but it seems like this must be the recording and not an issue with the LP itself.

Also, like most are mentioning, I will need to wait for the cartridge to fully break in. I just wish I could fast track it. 100 hours is probably something like 133 records. I am keeping track as I mark the ones Ive listened to. I guess I need to be a bit more patient. Will probably put some Black Sabbath on tonight.

I did a quick comparison of the first few minutes of Scheherazade, between the SACD and the reissue Vinyl.

I adjusted the volume so that the opening (bass heavy) chords were within a dB or so.  The levels of the violin entry were subsequently somewhat different.  Roughly 4dB difference, the vinyl louder.  The opening is bass heavy, do that would suggest that the bass levels are depressed in the LP.

Part of this is probably that loud passages tend to have higher bass content and LPs, were (are?) dynamically compressed owing to limitations of the medium.  (NO judgement of sound quality but the dynamic range of an LP is 70dB at most, SACD or high res PCM at least 96dB).

I haven’t “confused” anything. I was referencing early production cdp’s. I thought I said that. Also, of course the term “brick wall” is a metaphor for very steep slope. I probably was remiss in not acknowledging that SACD and DSD ameliorated the problem. But I still hear an unnatural abrupt cutoff of extreme low bass with physical discrete CDs. For whatever reason.

Research doesn’t support me. I was wrong apparently about the low frequency limit built into RBCDs, but I still hear a less natural extreme low frequency response with RBCDs. I have to re-read some 1970s literature to remember why.

I agree with others that your cart may just require more breaking in. 

I'll also share that I had the same feeling when I switched to a Hana ML going into my Sutherland 20/20. Added in a Bob's Devices Sky 20-S and Boom! Nice full bass was back. Not sure if that will work for your system, but it worked for me. 

@lewm 

I just randomly picked a mid-price CD Player - it happened to be the Marantz CD 60 - and digital playback is down to 2-Hz.  No brick wall at 22-Hz

• USB DSD: 2Hz - 50kHz (-3dB)
  USB PCM: 2Hz - 50kHz (-1.5dB)
  CD: 2Hz - 20kHz

It is tough for LPs to have loud, deep bass as it required large displacements (L-R & Up-Down) of the groove.  No such limitations in Digital.

If you have an LP and the digital remaster it would not surprise me to find that the CD/SACD has louder bass.

I don't know that I have particularly noticed it but I have CD, SACD, original vinyl and reissue vinyl of LSC-2446 - Scheherazade ~ Reiner, Chicago Symphony I'll listen tomorrow.

@lewm

Because digital has a brick wall filter at around 22Hz, the response stops dead at the frequency.  ... digital goes very low until it doesn't.  This is not what happens in live music in any real world venue. I cannot get away from the fact that I hear what he was talking about.

I respect your analogue expertise, but your digital explanation seems to have a brick wall of its own!  Brick-wall filters have a very sharp cutoff ...

True, CD quality digital (Red Book specification) is sampled 44,100 times per second.  The highest sinusoidal frequency this can represent is about 22-kHz according to the Nyquist theorem.  To avoid digital artifacts above this frequency, early players did indeed incorporate a very sharp "brick-wall" filter at about 22-kHz to avoid a phenomenon called aliasing.  Smarter manufacturers like Philips expanded the sample rate on playback by creating four samples for every one on the disk.  Philips used a much gentler filter with much better sound quality even on their first players!  This is known as oversampling and is common today.

Of course, much higher recording sample rates are also used today (high-res) and these shift the filter requirement to much higher frequencies.

The ultimate digital format for playback is Direct Stream Digital which starts at 2.8224 MHz and only needs a very gentle low-pass filter to get rid of noise in the mega-Hz frequencies.

There is absolutely no technical reason why digital needs any low frequency cut-off at all. It can simply encode frequencies down to 0-Hz or DC!  So I think you have confused 22-Hz with 22-kHz.

Vinyl record playback systems, on the other hand, have to deal with all sorts of low frequency mechanical resonances which have to be kept below the human limit of audibility generally accepted to be 20-Hz.  I am sure you can list more of these than I can, but top of my list is tonearm resonance, then floor-borne shaking, bearing noise, platter resonance, chassis resonance, mounting board resonance, etc.  To avoid overloading speakers and amplifiers with inaudible low frequencies, analogue playback systems incorporate high pass filters a bit below 20-Hz.

Finally, when a vinyl master is made, the engineer tries to squeeze the grooves as tightly together as reasonably possible to make maximum use of the available 'real estate'.  Infrasonic frequencies would have very large excursions so are filtered out before even reaching the vinyl master.  So I would say "vinyl goes quite low until it doesn't"

bbarten, To answer what I think was a question, yes, the RIAA curve is the industry standard for recording and reproducing music on vinyl.  All modern phono stages to be used with magnetic cartridges contain an inverse RIAA filter in the signal path. You would not like to listen to the output of a magnetic cartridge through a simple amplification stage. The filter in a phono stage boosts the input bass frequencies and progressively attenuates higher frequencies to achieve a flat output response, so it probably is not the prime cause of an unsatisfactory bass response.

From Wiki: "The RIAA curve is an equalization standard used for vinyl records, where low frequencies are reduced and high frequencies are boosted during recording, and the opposite occurs during playback. This process improves sound quality, allows for longer recording times, and reduces noise from the record itself."

Attenuating the bass frequencies during recording permits the bass content to take up less space on the LP and makes it easier to track during playback, among other things.

@bbarten If you want an album with some good solid bass, listen to the Styx Equinox album (IMHO their best album), especially the song "Midnight Ride".  "Suite Madam Blue" is a great song as well.

And if you turn up the bass,  it's your system, it's your music, and whatever sounds good to you is the main thing.

@tomrk Right on!  I think I had all the bass that could be had in a beetle with four Jensen 6x9's. lol  Yeah the groove thing is my basis and of course the RIAA EQ...this is what the sections in integrated are for, right?  Or standalones.  I guess the EQ is a constant?  Doesn't seem too cool really.  he he...thanks for the great info!  Ever noticed how some outlets boosts the bass more than original?  Like some radio channels and such?  Not true to origin but I like it.  Sorry purists!

Look at you manual again , you should be setting the cartridge to 1K resistance . J12 & J30

Also check your gain setting  , should be 60 or 66 db .

@bbarten If you think of the pop/rock albums of the 70’s in particular, they were generally played in cars on either 8-track or cassette.  The speakers of the time were placed in trunks on the rear package shelf, so they emphasized the bass.

Here’s the technical reason from vintagevinylnews.

During this process, low frequencies (like bass tones) are reduced, and high frequencies (like cymbals and snares) are amplified.

This allows for narrower grooves on the record, which increases play time and reduces distortion from needle movement in lower frequency ranges.

When we play these records back on a turntable or phonograph, we need to reverse this frequency reduce high ones, and enhance low ones – so that what we hear accurately replicates the original recording.

This is precisely where an RIAA equalized preamplifier comes into play; it corrects these altered frequencies according to the standard RIAA curve.

So the gentleman above who recommended an equilizer has it exactly right.   Your phono preamp is applying reverse RIAA curve, so it’s hardly heresy to jack up the bass if it suits your mood.

Because digital has a brick wall filter at around 22Hz, the response stops dead at the frequency.  Harry Pearson first noticed that at least early CDPs lacked what he called "downward dynamic range", perhaps because of the filter effect.  After HP brought it up, I cannot avoid hearing the effect of which he speaks.  Yes, digital goes very low until it doesn't.  This is not what happens in live music in any real world venue. I cannot get away from the fact that I hear what he was talking about.

@chayro yes, good point, for sure it wouldnt be right away anyway. I would need to wait for a good condition/deal on a used xp15 anyway. Ill do some research, it could take many months. I just assumed that the pass labs xp15 is most likely a better phono all around and yes a different sound quality for sure. Supposedly the xp15 gives a bit of that tube likeish sound.

fyi, just for giggles, Once counter example -- I have an original 1st edition mint British Pressing of Jimi Hendrix Electric Ladyland - the one that was originally mixed by Hendrix - back & forth - speaker to speaker even on the same guitar riff. It had so much dynamic range (peaks and valleys on the Vinyl) that it caused the cheaper record players back in the day to skip.  On the second pressing and the USA pressings, they had to compressed it, and in addition, when the album was mastered in the USA, they could not "understand"/"follow" Hendrix mixing directions, so, the subsequent pressings sound very different.  On my original Album, If you play Voodoo Child (slight return), the bass is incredible.  There is no CD, nor subsequent vinyl pressing that even comes close to the sound of that Album.  So, trying to compare Vinyl to CD includes lots and lots of variables.  As you can see, even vinyl to vinyl with subsequent pressings can be an issue... 

I think it’s not a great idea to change a component while another component is breaking in. Have patience. 

Thanks all, so this is what I am going to do based on what I have read here.

1. I need to do a better test. I think someone gave me an idea with Daft Punk. I might test 1 track from Random Access Memories and compare both digital vs LP.

2. I need to re look at my capacitance settings. I remember with the 310lp I think I was confused as the manual suggested to use 0pF for MC cartridges, however, for the Ania, it states to use 1000 pF, which the 310lp only has 3 options, 0pF, 100pF and 470pF. At first I thought 100pF was the 1000 one since it was missing. Ill double check what its set at, so not sure at the moment if it should be on 470 or 0.

3. I think I should give the Ania a true test and wait until its fully broken in. I know the store did indeed tell me after 100 hours it will change. Im hoping to hear something at 50 Hours, fingers crossed.

4. maybe its time to change the phono first (before the TT, not sure if I want to change it yet, since I haven't used it much). Im not sure if maybe the pass labs xp15 is a good option (read reviews that it has a warmer sound than the xp17) This may need another discussion thread on its own in the near future.

One of my favorite carts to throw on is a Shure M44G Club/Party unit. Makes me want to spin some tunes after a tinkering session. 
* this is genre specific and we never touch the good stuff during these regressions. 

Great amp , and yes the cartridge needs more time breaking in .

To test old or original 60's rock vinyl for bass try a testing your original release with a new " remastered " one , say like the Beatles remastered by Giles Martin .

A real good test would be to play The Cowboy Junkies album All That Reckoning  , if you don't have bass slam then there might be a problem in your cartridge setup . 

I agree with the many comments on set-up and media. One thing I've observed in all media; CD, SACD, Digital and Vinyl, is that the source media is often a big factor in how prominent the bass is presented. Try playing some R&B vinyl and see if you get a strong bass response; something like Luther Vandross.

Next reverse your test, once you identify a vinyl source with strong bass response then play the same music on digital or CD and see what your results are.

I agree with the many comments on set-up and media. One thing I've observed in all media; CD, SACD, Digital and Vinyl, is that the source media is often a big factor in how prominent the bass is presented. Try playing some R&B vinyl and see if you get a strong bass response; something like Luther Vandross.

Next reverse your test, once you identify a vinyl source with strong bass response then play the same music on digital or CD and see what your results are.

I haven't read every single comment but if I just go on intuition alone I really feel like vinyl simply doesn't have the bandwidth for it.  It seems like it's why we didn't have subs (to a large degree) back then.  But I'm not 100% sure and could google it but sometimes I like to pretend we don't have google and such.  lol

One of the many reasons my vintage Garrard TT and system components aren’t on display collecting dust anymore, there comes a time said the CD player to the cassette and R/R players…..lol 

Cheers 

Many older records in general can sound thin and dull.

Suggest you try newer records to compare. On my setup, my TT has just as much bass as my digital, and even my tuner (yeah, I still listen to radio).

Just got an anniversary vinyl of Daft Punk. It has just as much bass as the digital version. On my system sounds better overall over the digital version. 

Think it's either your cartridge setup, or phono-pre setup. Play around with it, till you find what you are missing.