Tube Vs. SS Preamps

ralph - first of all happy holidays to you and yours 🎄🎄🎄

re your comment, i never had the pleasure of having citation gear back in the day, am sure they were wide bandwidth as you say ... my thoughts were based on my own, generalized experiences in the late 80’s, 90’s, 00’s using/trying tube pre’s from cj, macintosh, dynaco, cary/dennis had and arc...

let’s diaggregate a little

lesser/older tube gear provides

1. rolled off treble
2. little to no deep bass, poor bass damping
3. enriched/expanded midrange and midbass
4. lower sense of drive and rhythm and attack when needed
5. improved imaging and sense of natural ’decay’ on notes (think piano natural reverb)
6. reduced sense of grain and grit in treble and mids (pleasant smoothing effect)

@jjss49 

The H/K Citation 1 preamp has bandwidth to over 100KHz. Properly refurbished they give many high end preamps a run for the money. Its real weakness is the phono section won't do LOMC cartridges. H/K was good about bandwidth in their power amps as well (the Citation 5 had bandwidth to 100KHz as well) since Stuart Hegeman (the designer) was a big advocate of wide bandwidth and low impedance power supplies. Your characterization of older equipment isn't entirely accurate.

SPL Elector is a solid state preamp that does a nice job of mimicking an excellent tube preamp.  Beautiful, airy, textured sound with great tone colors.  Also, clear as a bell...

[@jiffyg] I am going to chime in here and then everyone can attack me. I think that many lesser priced tube based designs can be very musical and soft sounding which compliments many lesser expensive ss designed amps. So on the more affordable side of things I believe that tubed equipment sounds pleasing, maybe not super revealing or hyper accurate, but very pleasing. Obviously as the price goes up and the true art and science of sound reproduction is achieved both solid state and tubed designs both hit all the stops, sound stage, intimacy, immediacy and revealing of source information.

At least you know what you like and can obtain it.  Some don't know, and drive themselves nuts rotating one piece of gear to the next never finding what they like.  

In a similar fashion to your findings there can be what I think of as the "golden era" sound to some older tube amps and older receivers, integrated, preamps with old caps and old carbon resistors and such that can be enjoyable to listen to.

Recently helping a friend on his highly modified "lesser cost" Jolida integrated tube amplifier, with old vintage input/driver tubes and newer PSVANE KT88s mixed with some decent interconnect and speaker cables we hit on the same sound you refer to. It's quite musical to listen to, and his total amp investment is about half cost of comparable amps with equal or less musicality. It can be achieved, to your point.   

@jffyg     ”I am going to chime in here and then everyone can attack me. I think that many lesser priced tube based designs can be very musical and soft sounding which compliments many lesser expensive ss designed amps…”

Nothing to attack, it’s a generality. I agree with your assessment. I have swapped a lot of less expensive equipment in my headphone system and early on in my main system. Your assessment is good.

agree that lesser tube gear often pleases, especially in the case of those coming from similar priced solid state, which exhibits classic ss harshness and lack of dimensionality - but this pleasing nature comes at the expense of speed and clarity

let’s diaggregate a little

lesser/older tube gear provides

1. rolled off treble
2. little to no deep bass, poor bass damping
3. enriched/expanded midrange and midbass
4. lower sense of drive and rhythm and attack when needed
5. improved imaging and sense of natural ’decay’ on notes (think piano natural reverb)
6. reduced sense of grain and grit in treble and mids (pleasant smoothing effect)

better/top tier tube gear provides

• extended ’hear through’ treble but not forward like all but the best solid state
• very good deep bass with still a somewhat enriched midbass
• somewhat but perhaps less bloomy midrange (than lower tube gear)
• excellent sense of slam and prat (if still a touch less than the best solid state)
• outstanding expanded, ’holographic’ imaging, natural attack and decay of notes, excellent cohesion top to bottom
• clarity without any traces of electronic artifacts

hope this helps those progressing on the experience curve

There is no correct answer to your question. Different designers are going to focus on different things. For me Don Sach's DS2 preamp with the right tubes is the most accurate preamp I have had in my system. It drives my ML 29L amp perfectly. One of these days I'll finish building my amplifier which is very similar to Don's amp, which is largely based upon the Tubes4HIFI Mods for Hafler's Dynaco ST70. Don used to be known for his mods to Macintosh and HK tube gear. Roy ((TUBES4HIFI) is a fantastic designer, and Don took Roy's improvements and just blew them up using amazing components, and power supply upgrades.

I started out with a prototype amp Roy made, and I wanted more. I have shelved it for now because I stumbled upon a deal on the ML 29L. I had been using a PS AUDIO 200C, which controls the speakers about as well as the ML, but is darker and has less definition. That's what motivated me to look at a tube amp, but the ML finally has me at the point of contentment.

So, it's not nearly so much a SS vs Tubes, you can find plenty of both that suck, and a few that are awesome. It all depends upon how well designed they are, and how much they were screwed up by using crappy or even decent components vs the best or one of the best components here or there.

Then there are personal preference issues. I divide listeners into 2 primary categories. One I call Vandersteen types. These folks don't want exact replication, they would prefer a bit darker sound so that they can enjoy lower quality productions. They'll listen to music that used more mediocre equipment for producing it, or some that just wasn't mixed well, etc. I used to think of them negatively, obviously I am in the other camp. Then I gave it some thought and realized that everyone likes what they like, and as long as we're talking strictly music, what's important is that they enjoy their music, not that I like their system.

The other camp wants to hear the music as it was made, warts and all. I gave up turntables as soon as I had tweaked a CD player to the point that it was listenable. I was paying high dollars for "high end" records that seemed to have more surface noise than mass produced records from a decade or two previously. Was it really record or was it the equipment I was listening to it on, who knows, it just drove my crazy to pay so much for such noisy records. Anyway, it's difficult to answer your question intelligently because I don't know your preferences, and frankly, if it hasn't been in my system, how do I know if other components are coloring the music, making me think a good component is mediocre or worse?

I know that finally, when listening to a good recording, it sounds like I am there more so than on any other system that I have ever heard. I suspect that my DAC Isa shade bright, but I don't want to spend 5K or so only to find out that DAC X, Y, or Z is worse in some respect, or that it seems plight occasionally because the master was slightly bright, therefore copies made from it are bright too?

If you want accurate, but don't want tubes, and are willing to sacrifice a shade of realism, I have had a Parasound P5 in my system. I suspect they may not use all discrete devices in the signal path, but if I just couldn't afford tubes, I think that I could live with it. That said, I believe that the Halo 7's are selling for under $900 used and while I have never heard one in my system, I strongly suspect that they sound better than the P5.

It largely depends upon what you want and what you are willing to spend to get it. I am talking about a 30 year old memory here, but as I remember it, if I didn't care about turning up the volume, or hearing deep bass, the most magical speakers I recall hearing before mine were the old Quad ELS57s. Unfortunately finding my drivers would be like finding hen's teeth so I won't bother naming them. If you don't have a large budget, I am told by a source whom I know well that the crazy inexpensive Lii 15 sounds crazy good for the money, this fellow I believe will sell you the speakers and an open baffle for them.

http://www.caintuckaudio.com/Lii_15.html

Hi Greg. Been there and done that.

First up: interplay between price and quality.  Not a difficult concept in itself but it gets a bit more complicated with the variable of tube vs SS.  That is to say it is more difficult - and thereby more expensive - to produce an equivalent quality tube pre amp.  The main issue is in getting a truly low nice tube design. 

Second: There is a bit of a continuum.  For SS then mosfets sound closer to tubes than bi-polar transistors.  Likewise 6H30 tubes have more tube sound than others.

My take for a pre (given that I like valves): Do not bother unless you get a very high quality (and expensive) valve Pre that runs 6H30 tubes.

This is not so easy.  I have an Ayon Eris but I prefer to run my Emm Labs or Daniel Hertz Pre.  The Ayon is good but the Emm and the Daniel Hertz are just lower noise.

I am going to chime in here and then everyone can attack me. I think that many lesser priced tube based designs can be very musical and soft sounding which compliments many lesser expensive ss designed amps. So on the more affordable side of things I believe that tubed equipment sounds pleasing, maybe not super revealing or hyper accurate, but very pleasing. Obviously as the price goes up and the true art and science of sound reproduction is achieved both solid state and tubed designs both hit all the stops, sound stage, intimacy, immediacy and revealing of source information.

For the moment I’m back on full tube. Tube preamp for me adds a lot of body ss is lacking although I’ve never had what you might call a “high end “ preamp. 
 

Ive dabbled with tube pre and ss amp along with ss pre amd tube amp. I found most of the magic resides with the preamp tubes. The ss pre with tube amp did not sound good at all. Like bad. Ymmv. 

Get yourself a BAT or Conrad Johnson tube pre. The difference is noticeable and pleasing. I’ll never go back to SS exclusively. I can’t believe you never sampled tubes in 25 years. But you don’t know what you’ve been missing. 

I like using my Chinese made tube preamp...its well built and sounds great.I have used both  SS preamps and tube ....phono preamps to...I like trying different pieces of equipment. 

I’ve changed amplifiers, solid state as well as tube over the years and what has lasted in my system is the Cary Audio SLP-05 with the Ultimate Upgrade and Cardis Wiring. Hands down, the best I’ve owned and believe me I’ve owned some serious hi end SS & Tube Preamps. Check the reviews. Oh and if you want one of the baddest headphone amplifier from a preamp, look no further. Incredible with my Audeze LCD-4’s. 
 

https://www.stereophile.com/tubepreamps/906cary/index.html

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/is-the-cary-slp-05-still-relavant

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/cary-audio-slp-05-linestage-preamplifier-cad-211-fe-monoblock-amplifiers-tas-205-1

https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/177419/tube-preamp-review-mcintosh-c500t-vs-cary-slp-05

https://www.hometheatershack.com/threads/cary-audio-slp-05-preamplifier-review.20652/

I think that the classic era tube preamps definitely coloured the music albeit in a way many liked, but most modern tube preamps tend to be uncoloured in that way.  In the CJ line up, the clouration was obvious in the old PV9  but is absent in the Premier 14 I now use.

I know what you mean. IMO it has to do with the distortion signature- neither a tube or solid state preamp will be making any significant distortion but its a simple fact that distortion is inescapable.

Its been shown that the lower ordered harmonics serve two functions both of which are helpful. The first is that if they are there at sufficient amplitude, they can mask higher ordered harmonics that otherwise are perceived as brightness.

The 2nd and more important function is that somehow the 2nd and 3rd harmonic are helpful to the ear in some way in helping it to perceive soundstage width and depth. You might be easily convinced that this is some sort of effect rather than being neutral, but if you listen to a direct microphone feed and compare that to the actual musical performance you find that the sound stage is simply being presented in a more natural fashion.

I think more research could be done in this area, but I’m not holding my breath for it to happen. But it is a documented phenomena.

makes sense ralph, thank you

wishing you (and all others here) a happy holidays!

You are asking the wrong question.  What tubes offer that SS cannot compete with is space.  You hear a soundstage where vocals and instruments have their own space.

Except this just isn’t the case when concerning reference quality SS components. And much, if not most, entry-level tube gear fails to produce that sense of “space.” 

After living with super low distortion SS products from Exposure, Benchmark, and Bel Canto, I actually find that tube gear leads to earlier onset of fatigue, even when the tube gear is of relatively low distortion.

I run VTA SP-13 preamp which runs an Aikido line stage.  It was intended to drive a high input impedance tube amp.  A Dynaco ST-70 had an imput impedance of 330k ohms.   But I run my preamp into a solid-state active crossover, which has an input impedance of only 10k ohms.  That was a major problem when I first got it.

I went back to the designer and told him about the input impedance I had to deal with and he immediately knew the problem and the fix.   The coupling caps on the preamp output were at .33 uf.  He sent me some 1.5 uf caps to add on, which fixed the problem.

Very true, even though many products measure perfectly they all sound different.  I have three preamps in front of me.   All pretty good , they have their own character and presentation of the. music.   

From personal experience these differences are a little more pronounced with tube gear .  My newest preamp doesn't really sound like anything but I'm getting more of everything if that makes sense....

What ever flavor you like I think the preamp is the most important link in the chain as it can often be the bottleneck of a great system.

I always find this TUBE vs SS discussion entertaining.....If not silly. After near 50 years as an audiophile and 40 years in the HiFi business, I've found there is as much musical difference among various SS and tube  amps and preamps as there is between SS products and tube products.......If there wasn't, there would be far fewer manufacturers and no need for reviews, magazines and forums such as this.

Mush more important, is the combination of devices......You can buy all the amps, preamps, DACs, streamers, turntables, cartridges and speakers you want. Buy the most expensive and highly rated products on the market, put them all together and in many, if not most cases, the total system will sound terrible. 

This is the VERY difficult part of Audiophilia......There are hundreds of thousands of combinations....And hitting one that works for you might be like hitting the Lottery.

But THAT'S what makes the hobby so much fun......It's the hunt!

This week I replaced my c-j Classic 2SE with a Zesto Leto preamp and the difference was not subtle.    It was staggering.   Having that component in my system has cemented my belief all along that the preamp is the most important link in the chain.  Speakers ?   Not as much ,  putting the Zesto in place made it seem like I upgraded my speakers ..... incredible sounding piece of gear.   

Freya + will give you both. If you want tubes turn the tube buffer on if you don’t want tubes turn them off. I feel tubes are vital when streaming. Some or most digital streaming that is not run through tubes feels like razor blades to my ears, listener fatigue can set in fast. I have rolled tubes to find the sound I like too.

i am curious to know what you believe to be the source/reason/technical underpinning behind top level tube gear being able to generally (exceptions exist of course) provide a greater sense of air and vast imaging (size, depth in particular) - compared to similarly high level solid state gear?  

I know what you mean. IMO it has to do with the distortion signature- neither a tube or solid state preamp will be making any significant distortion but its a simple fact that distortion is inescapable.

Its been shown that the lower ordered harmonics serve two functions both of which are helpful. The first is that if they are there at sufficient amplitude, they can mask higher ordered harmonics that otherwise are perceived as brightness.

The 2nd and more important function is that somehow the 2nd and 3rd harmonic are helpful to the ear in some way in helping it to perceive soundstage width and depth. You might be easily convinced that this is some sort of effect rather than being neutral, but if you listen to a direct microphone feed and compare that to the actual musical performance you find that the sound stage is simply being presented in a more natural fashion.

I think more research could be done in this area, but I'm not holding my breath for it to happen. But it is a documented phenomena.

@atmasphere 

ralph, if you don't mind a somewhat related sidebar question - i am curious to know what you believe to be the source/reason/technical underpinning behind top level tube gear being able to generally (exceptions exist of course) provide a greater sense of air and vast imaging (size, depth in particular) - compared to similarly high level solid state gear?  

What is "fatigue free" ?

@vinowino Its a lack of audible higher ordered harmonics (which, if audible, are perceived by the ear as harshness and brightness) and also low intermodulation distortion; intermodulations also contribute to harshness and brightness.

Tubes are still being made because so many solid state products made over the last 60 years are harsh and bright.

Taks are the best. Maybe even beyond NOS WEs.

Tube preamp with SS amp is a traditional and frequently fine combination.

Most tube preamps smooth out most SS amps.

@greg7 

Sorry for this hijacking.

@gammajo 

many thanks

the way I understand it, the Brama can be used in tube mode or SS mode

( class A ) at a click of a button .

Someone should never buy , before he has heard it ,  I know.

I hope it will be a nice discovery.

Parts Connection usually has the Taks at a discount

MaxWave. Wow, congratulations! If what my guys are saying is correct the Bramma should be amazing. I know I love my L2ise better than anything else that I have heard. The stock tubes are good, but I use the Takatsuki TA-300 Bs.The Taks are really nice. Many Rossi users have reported these Taks as best. I have not heard the new Western Electrics personally. enjoy!

Joe

Try something really cheap to get a feel for it. The Schiit Vali 2 is $150 and definitely gives you a taste of the tube flavor. I found the soundstage way overperformed at the price. You could even put it in the chain after your existing preamp.

Dogmatic approach to the question is wrong. Individual preference should be on the first place. Personality, I prefer tubes in pre amplification. I moved to tubes from SS in my main system about 15 years ago and never looked back, however I still have SS preamps in my two secondary systems so I’m getting proof of tubes superiority any time I’m listening there.
Recently I had chance to talk to one of my kid’s friends who appeared to be an audio Ingener… :) Young fellow has own opinion on SS vs Tubes….He said that old guys love tube sound cause it’s reminds them sound how it was long time ago, when they were young, when grass was greener and candies sweeter, but It has nothing to do with sound quality.. he also mentioned that his generation prefers SS as it’s their “greener grass” and “sweeter candies” :)

@gammajo 

I have ordered the new Vinnie Rossi Brama. January delivery .

I new with tubes. I am not sure if I have made the right decision 

I have a Soulution INT 330 ( for sale ) and I am very pleased with it.

Are the stock tubes fine ?
What would be your recommandations  ?

I have read the new  Western Electric 300B  would be fine.

Sbank, at least for they took things to the proverbial new level, more natural, dynamic, holographic, organic, and real used in Ayon pre-amp in sensitive system. I assume they would be worth a try in the BAT. The 1985 and newer Reflectors did not do this.

@gammajo Interesting! Never heard the Reflektors. Anybody try them in BAT preamp? Cheers,

Spencer

Spencer and those using 6H30 tubes, you can indeed tube roll the 6H30s. The Russian Reflektor 6h30s from late 1970's to early 1980 have a special sound, much enhanced over the standard Supertube 6h30's. I used them in Ayon equipment. I still have a few pair of the Reflektors from 1979 and 1980. I have moved on from Ayon due reliability issues with Ayon. Now using 300B in Vinni Rossi Integrated. PM me if interested

Joe

I completely recommend a tube pre-amp. I have a McIntosh C2700 and couldn’t be happier with the sound. 

One more thing worth mentioning--some tube linestages do not play well with some solid state amps even when the output impedance of the linestage is low enough that the two should be electrically compatible.  I don't know why that is the case, but, on several occasions, I found this to be true.  The "bad" sound is an overly warm and muddled sound that is also dynamically constricted (the so-called tube sound on steroids).  It might also just be the case that tube linestages, as is the case with all tube gear, vary much more in sound than do top solid state gear which tends to sound much more uniform.  A trial is before purchase is highly recommended for all gear, and it is particularly required for tube gear.  

+2 On the Schiit Freya + preamp.

Building my system, I wanted components that just played what was there.  The solid state preamp quit.  I have horn speakers with a DAC that puts out 2.0V.  My amp is at full output with 1.25V.  I worked with Vacuum Tube Audio and have a passive tube buffer playing right now.  It changed the sound in a pleasant way.  Less sharpness on the top,pleasing vocals, piano(properly recorded) sounded better but not the full tube sound.  With minor changes this preamp can be turned into a 6AU7 based preamp.  However, I may not want to use it that way because of gain.  When streaming there is so much difference in volume of each song that sometimes, I still only need 1/4 volume.other times 1/2 volume.  I have not worked on audio equipment so I am scared to try experimenting myself!  Bottom line is I am happy with the sound right now. 

When I decided to get really invested, I bought a demo McIntosh C2600 tube preamp and matched it to a pair of MC611 mono blocks. Could not be more pleased with the results. FWIW

Tube rectified,regulated 6sn7 tube pre,with class A amps is a wonderful combination.  To my ears,sounds great.  Absolutely no listening fatigue.  

Well, let's see.  The REVERED Marantz tube pre-amp was followed by the REVERED Audio Research tube pre-amp, that in its day, was said to be the best pre-amp ever produced.

Since then, they have improved it over and over.

Evidently, they know what they are doing and my suggestion is to TRY ONE IN YOUR ROOM and see if it fits your system.  YOU many not like it, but it seems that everyone from the Audio press to many customers think there is something there.

OR, they could all be 'wrong' and lying.  One way to find out, I guess...

Cheers!

Make sure that any tube preamp that you are considering has an output impedance compatible with your amplifiers.

Get a Schiit Freya + and have the ability to switch between tubes and passive...great sounding sophisticated preamp for el cheapo.

Fatigue free, in my opinion , is talking of your ears, not the body.

Your body definitely will fatigue after several hours listening, however, your ear  is still enjoying  and want to have more time.that is fatigue free.

What is "fatigue free" ?

running a nice class a amp with a very nice 6sn7 based tube preamp with a tube rectifier and have never enjoyed music more having tried every other option. 

biggest impact is the projection of the sound into the space of the room as if it were a floating 3 dimensional landscape.  

also a smoothness and naturalness to the sound with impeccable openness and transparency.  

never will i be without.  

"... the supposed advantages of tubes vs solid state audio. Among several listed reasons for tube gear "sounding" better was that tubes emphasize even order harmonics, whereas solid state emphasizes odd order harmonics"

Nelson Pass on two of his SS amplifiers: "It is perhaps not oversimplifying to say that the [Pass Lab] XA25 has a 3rd harmonic character and the [First Watt] F8 has a very 2nd harmonic personality," -- https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-43-first-watt-f8-power-amplifier-page-2