I have been testing our various tube preamps with GaN FET amps and our hybrid amps (one uses a 12AU7 input stage while the other uses DHT-currently running 2A3’s)
Being a bit biased, my preference is our 2A3 only linestage. The GaN FET modules on their own have a 100K input impedance and the hybrids are min. 100k
The 2A3 preamp utilizes transformer coupled inputs with single ended output
With the higher input impedance and the better quality of todays Class D amps, it is not to hard to get the sound you want with a tube preamp just be careful with the synergy with high output preamps with some Class D/solid state low impedance inputs. As always
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So - I’ve been (re)assembling my cabin system. It now consists of the Atmasphere MP-1 mk 3.3 preamp (tube) and Atmasphere Class D monos and I’m pleased to say it’s a very good combination. It’s different than my primary system which is solid state preamp going into a class A/B amp but they’re both very satisfying even though they bring different things to the table.
I’ve had class D amps before (PS Audio Stellar S300, NAD M22, NAD M33) but they all failed to fully satisfy. They weren’t bad, but they also weren’t that great and I’ve since sold them. The Atmasphere Class Ds are notably more musical and a terrific value. I will say they’re not quite as good as my Class A/B amp to which i directly compared them. But they were also a LOT less expensive.
So, my recent experience is a tube preamp/class D combo is a nice pairing.
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@erik_squires
The seemingly consistent feature among previous generations of Class D amps has been relatively low input impedance.
FWIW the input impedance of our class D amps is 100K single-ended or balanced. Anything can drive them.
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In some cases I believe this is to allow for the OEM to produce their own high impedance input stage. If you make pr eamps, maybe worth taking a gander at incorporating your own front-end. :)
Thats what we have done with our Hybrids.
That’s what we have done with our Hybrid amplifiers. One uses a DHT input stage. I didn’t want to go to far into that as didn’t want the post to look like a promo.
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but with their higher input impedance, they mate much better with tube preamplifiers than previous designs.
The seemingly consistent feature among previous generations of Class D amps has been relatively low input impedance.
In some cases I believe this is to allow for the OEM to produce their own high impedance input stage. If you make pr eamps, maybe worth taking a gander at incorporating your own front-end. :) @response34
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For Class D I prefer GaN FET. We evaluated and worked with several Class D amps in the past while designing our preamps but being a tube guy, we found GaN FET designs not only sound exceptional, but with their higher input impedance, they mate much better with tube preamplifiers than previous designs. With other Class D modules, they were either too warm with no sparkle or they were sterile sounding and only good for bass modules
Personally , I prefer the combination of a DHT preamp and a Hybrid DHT/Gan FET amplifier.
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I tried a D-Sonic amp with a Modwright 36.5 preamp. It was a nice amp, crystal clear, excellent for home theater or background music, but sort of lifeless with 2 ch audio. If you're not familiar with it, the Modwright is a fine preamp (imo), but not particularly "tubey".
Admittedly, I have been a tube guy for a long time. Maybe it was asking too much - I mean, I gave up on solid state amps because to me, there is no doubt that tube amplification sound more like real music - but it sure would be nice if cl. D were "good enough". It soured me on class D, for now, but I haven't tried any of the newer GAN versions.
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ADG Duets fronted by a Ayon Audio CD-35 pre/CD player and I love this combo! Speakers are DeVore Super Nines.
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@ghdprentice I've gone through most permutations of Pass Labs amps, Coda amps, and Audio Note integrated amps (SOTO SE and Cobra being my favorite). Current reference is an LTA Microzotl Level 2 preamp as a reference McGary SA1E tube amp. Before that I had a Supratek Cabernet.
I use Class D Audio amps in my secondary theater system and even listen to music on them on occasion. I preferred them over the PS Audio M700 which as I stated earlier I greatly disliked. I've had the opportunity to demo the AGD Audion MKIII at Axpona over the course of a couple days and I loved them, but I need to try it in my space first.
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I started with Rouge 7 and Bel Cantos m600’s. The sounds stage was poor, midrange was very laid back. Overall not very good. I decided the Bel Cantos were not my cup of tea. So I replaced them with AGD Audions and everything got better except the sound stage still sounded small and not tube like. So I replaced the Rogue with a Cary SLP 05 ultimate NOS Tubes and now I couldn’t be happier.
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I had a Modwright tube preamp with a Bel Canto class D amp----lots of power but I kept getting some noise out of the preamp. Traded them in for a Luxman integrated.
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I had an AR 150M (class D) with an AR LS26 (tube) running electrostatics and it sounded sublime.
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What a great question. Sometimes this works, it's not always so easy. I had a rogue tube pre going into 2 mono blocks from Auralic and it was very good, but lacked a bit of detail. Soundstage was huge and imaging very good as well. When I swapped in a solid state amp from ML when they were called Proceed, the sound was surgical in its precision, but lost some warmth and bloom.
definitely worth experimenting, but IMO you can get superb sound with a SS pre and do not necessarily need a tube pre.
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Hot-rodded VTA SP-14, with Bel Canto REF600M class D monoblocks into Proac D30rs
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I quite like my PS Audio M1200 mono amps and preferred them to my PSA BHK250. It synergistically plays well with my DeHavilland UltraVerve and ModWright LS36.5 preamps. It also sounded great with the departed PS Audio BHK preamp. Sounds excellent with the solid state Luxman M700 as well. The ability to change the M1200's input tube helps fine tune the pairing with each preamp. Plus, as I get older, I really appreciate only having to lift amps weighing 30 lbs. instead of 75 lbs.!
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For several years, I've enjoyed a PS Audio BHK preamp (which uses tubes in the input stage) along with a pair of M700 monoblocks. They were driving Thiel CS2.2 speakers, and they sounded great. Before I used the BHK pre, though, I had to be careful with the Thiels sounding a little too bright on certain recordings or with hyper-detailed cables.
A couple of months ago, I decided to try a different Class D amp, specifically the Atma-Sphere Class D GaNFET monoblocks. I've been really impressed with the transparency and mid/high frequency smoothness of the A-S amps, which has been achieved without exaggerating sibilance or harshness. The soundstage width and depth has been amazing, with great layering and separation of instruments and singers. The A-S monos also provide solid, impactful bass, although break-in on the lower frequencies has been a bit slower than for the upper frequencies.
I've found that that gain for the A-S monoblocks has been a bit lower than the gain of the M700s, but this has not been a problem and I'm now able to use a wider range of volume settings on the BHK preamp. Fortunately, the A-S amps are extremely quiet even at higher volume settings.
An even more recent change in my system has been a change from the Thiel 2.2s to the PS Audio Aspen FR10 speakers. The FR10s and the A-S monoblocks are sounding great together. The level of transparency without harshness is amazing, which speaks to the synergy between the FR10's planar magnetic tweeter and midrange combined with the speed, low distortion, and finesse of the A-S GaNFETs. Recordings are sounding very real and engaging. And my new A-S/BHK/FR10 combination can "rock out" at fairly high sound levels when needed.
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@alexbpm
I dunno, it sounds like you never had a good Class D experience, which is your own experience but it doesn’t necessarily say anything about Tube pre amps with them.
Was there a solid state preamp you found worked really well?
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@alexbpm
Interesting observation. What is your preamp and other components? Otherwise it is hard to put your comments in context. Thanks.
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I’ve had terrible luck trying to get anything resembling music when pairing Class D amps to my tube preamp. I tried the PS Audio M700 monoblocks and the Orchard Audio Starkrimson Ultra. The M700 monoblocks sounded so dry and brittle I literally felt repulsed after listening to it, I couldn’t sell that thing fast enough. The Starkrimson was a definite step up in clarity...but was not to my taste. Admittedly I prefer the sound of tubes as I like bit of coloration. I dont like dark, dry or neutral sounding gear. But I haven’t given up. Excited to try Atma-Sphere Class D amps and the AGD Audio MKIII. I have a feeling they might change my mind.
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I have had my Canor Hyperion P1 Pre paired with most of the AGD Monos and also a VAC Master paired with AGD Duets specifically driving some Cantons. I have also used NAD and Primare Class Ds with the Hyperion. All of the combos were excellent.
Like any preamp, amp combination you need to look at the impedance, gain and voltage to make sure the equipment is matched well. If you have a good match, it will sound great assuming that sound profile meets your needs.
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I’ve run various tube preamps into Class D amps and consider Class D just like any other solid state amp wrt compatibility with a tube preamp or linestage.
I had the matching set of battery powered pre and power amps from Veloce Audio (LS-1 pre and Saetta hybrid monoblocks with 6h30 tubes and Hypex power module), also run tube preamps with PS Audio M700s. Never had an issue. I think Class D has come a long way since the early days. I’d like to try a GaN Class D next up, maybe one from Atma-Sphere.
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AGD Audion mono blocks with an Ayon pre. Great combo.
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I've been running a tube preamp with class Ds as well. Both are balanced and the amps are so light and make no heat so they sit on top of my speakers. I'm able to run long interconnects so my speaker cables are quite short. I used to run a set of our M-60 OTL monoblocks (fully optioned) but the class Ds do everything better so I don't miss the tubes at all (although I enjoy tube amps quite a lot). Nice to have no heat even after running all day and no worries about power tubes while having the same relaxed mids and highs.
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@marco1 I definitely am not missing the heat. I was very particular in getting rid of heat generated anything and am limited to my Allnic now. But I can dream.
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I ran a Rogue RP-1 with Mullards and PS Audio S-300. Sounded great for the $s. Ended up getting some Quad speakers so moved the S300 down the line and picked up a Quad Altera stereo A/B to try and pick up some synergy.
Bryston coming out with a new class D offering that really interests me.
I think tube pre and class D amps or A/B make a great combo.
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I have been running a McIntosh C220 pre (actually a tube hybrid) with an Arion Audio S-500 class D amp for almost 6 years now. Very happy with the synergy. I get a touch of tube warmth (with Mullard reproduction tubes) and plenty of clean, detailed power. No interest in any upgrades.
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My AUDIO-GD HE1 XLR 10 tube preamp with the Peachtree GAN-1 is a match that makes music sound Real..Beautiful Synergy !..Love it with Any speakers I throw at it. ...From KLH Model 3's to Borresen X-3's....I love my system .
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@j-wall if you don’t miss the heat I’m not sure that OTL’s are the way to go. Although it is nice to listen in your skivvies during the winter. In all seriousness though, I think they should match up nicely with your Allnic. Just be sure your speakers are a good match as well. Whether you’re missing anything now is something only you can answer.
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I was using an Icon Audio LA4 MKII SIG. with a Hypex Nilai for the last few months. It's pretty good for the money. I used some overly "warm" DIY preamps with other class D modules in the past that were kinda cool with certain music.
I found the Nilai to be fine with solid state as well. I've enjoyed messing with Class D the last couple years but I'm taking a break from it.
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I have been using various combinations of tube pre / Class D amps over the last 7 or so years. Rogue RP-7 (really nice for the cost), ARC Ref 6SE (hard/aggressive), currently Backert Labs Rhythm now upgraded to v1.4. Amps - LSA Voyager GAN 300 (just OK), Bel Canto Ref1000 monos (rolled off HF), currently AGD Tempo upgraded to the current version. The shimmer, finesse, and depth of detail and imaging of the Maggie/AGD/Rhythm without any sharpness is quite addictive.
I got a pair of LRS+ a few months ago (yes, I use a sub) and while the AGD drives them pretty well I thought I would try a higher powered amp because of their inefficiency. So I tried a pair of Orchard Starkrimson Ultra Premium LPS mono blocks. They definitely had the juice to drive them but I didn't perceive an actual improvement in sound, so I returned them. I gotta say Leo is a great guy and was very helpful.
So I just ordered a Bryston 3B3. Reviews say it is extremely smooth and detailed, against a black background, with significant power reserves. And supposedly has great synergy with Maggies. If it works as reviewed I will be leaving the Class D camp. If not it will be going back and I will be sticking with my AGD.
That has been my journey in amplification over the last maybe 7 years.
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Sorry ARC preamp (ancient) in case anyone is wondering.
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I've been using my LS7 tubed pre with a Classe D two channel amp for years and I genuinely love the combination. I've tried a couple of beefy A/B amps but the Classe seems to sound better at moderate volume, which is where most of my listening is done. When I do want to crank it up, no problems there either.
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@erik_squires What amp or amps are you getting?
@lwin - I'm getting 3 way plate amps made by Hypex. I'll be removing the passive crossovers and re-working them with the built in DSP capabilities. It's not a straight conversion. In addition to a white-paper redesign of the crossover I'm adding 2x 10" subwoofers to each speaker.
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I have been looking at doing a similar combination with Orchard and a Rumba Extreme.
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I'm running an ARC LS25 Mk2 pre with a DS225 amp. It's not reboxed modules, it's ARC's class D design and sounds very tubelike. I leave the amp on 24/7 and it only draws about 10-15w while idling.
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I’ve tried Primaluna, Zesto, PS Audio BHK Pre (Hybrid Tube) with SS amps, class D included. If you get the gain matched correctly, works really well, blending some of the tube magic with some of the attributes of SS / Class D. Exciting to watch Class D technology, design continue to evolve. Most of the designs in Audio currently are mature, tweaks that can be made but not the leaps happening with Class D. Class D designers are working overtime to dispel the old stereotypes associated.
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I use an Audio Research ls28se Pre, in the past I used PSA m700 monos then switched to M1200. The M1200 really thump out the bass and that is what I was looking for as my speakers hold 4 12" woofers each. I have them and my subs running tru a modified mini DSP. Bass is very tight and controlled.
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I run an Allnic L-7000 pre with Atma Class D’s and don’t miss the heat, but @marco1 has me curious to see if I need to test the Atma tubed power amps to see if I missed something.
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I used to run Orchard Audio Ultra DMC Stereo & Monoblocks with a BAT VK50-SE for many years. But recently, I've moved onto the Black Ice Aries/DAC/Preamp driving the Ultra's. Sometimes I'll direct drive the Ultras with my PS Audio DirectStream DAC Sr. (MK1). It's fun when you have options.
The Orchard Amps are a "straight wire with gain" philosophy which will then tell you how good or bad your source is.
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Really happy to see all the on-topic replies here. Especially happy that this discussion has stayed focused on the union of tube and Class D as opposed to a free-for-all discussion about Class D vs whatever you like better.
Those discussions are already plentiful in A’gon.
I ask this question in part because I'm about to go fully active in my main system and wanted to know what kinds of combinations had great synergy, but also because I've always suspected that a juicy tube pre with a solid performing Class D would be heavenly.
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Class d is comming of age the fosi audio monoblock is a bargain you can change the op amp to what you want sound wise.i do like d sonic,who doesn't like 2 kw into 4 ohms Dennis is fun to talk to.enjoy the music
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Currently, as an experiment, I’ve been using a music hall 25.2 hybrid headphone amp/pre with two NAD 268 amps that are bridged (300 watts/channel). I think it sounds fantastic. It did not cost me a ton of dough, as I got deals on them. I am partial to my sugden class A and my musical fidelity class AB, but I’m telling you, this combo just works. I got the idea from the rogue sphinx which combines class D topology with tubed pre section. I think they are/were on to something. What prompted me to do this was I did not think my other amps provided the oomph I needed when I wanted to rock out with say AC/DC, zeppelin, etc. I can tell you that I’m no longer wanting for that oomph or volume with the aforementioned combo, bizarre as it may be. The MH 25.2 is a hidden gem of a component when used as the pre. My next test is to sub in my passive pre, combined with the NAD"s. For class D, the NAD 268, to me, sounds warm and detailed with no grating harshness. I was surprised, and it has changed my mind about class D. I use the Tannoy eatons biwired. They are fairly sensitive and also add some warmth to the sound, which I’m sure the MH 25.2 is also adding with its tubes. I’m also using, with the NAD’s, the music hall A3 tubed phone stage, equipped with a volume control. That too sounds great. ASR reviewed the NAD 268, and gave it a very favorable review. Other than that, not much fanfare from other reviewers. Some here may look upon these components as total sh#t, I don’t care, I took a gamble on them and I’m loving it. So Tonight That I Might See by Mazzy Star has never sounded so good! Totally enveloped by the music.
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Correction it is the ST 150 that is in for repair.
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I normally bi amp with a VTL ST 150 and a Nord Audio Purifi Class D driven by a VTL 5.5 pre but the VTL pre is currently in for repair. So I am now using the Class D full range and the SQ is very good, maybe not as 3 dimensional as when bi amping with the VTL ST 150 on the mids/highs but very good anyway.
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Had a PS Audio BHK preamp and M700’s for a couple of years. They worked well together, but I still thought the same system sounded better when I replaced the M700’s with a CODA continuum 8 class A/B. But really, I don’t think you can generalize about whole classes of amps. Maybe the Atmasphere class D amps would have been as good or better than the CODA.
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I use a Italian Lector ZOE preamp, with a CI audio class D amp with excellent results. The ZOE got a major major upgrade when I installed NOS brimar tubes, totally transformed it, the ciaudio is stock except for a excellent Synergistic Research fuse...
Really love having a small light amp that doesn't run hot, and sounds as good or better than my old Sonic Frontiers tube amp that had eight KT 88s, weighed 160lbs, and could heat your house.
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I’m have a Raven tube preamp from Spatial Audio with a D-Sonic m3a-1200-s amp driving Gunned MMGs.
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I've done it with a Voyager GAN 300 wpc class D amp with an Aric Audio Motherlode II tube preamp. Now am running the combo of a PSAudio M1200 class D hybrid monoblocks driven by the Aric Audio Motherlode XL tube preamp. The latter combination is the heart of my reference system and, for the record, it sounds heavenly. I have had awesome solid state amps - the JC1 Prarsound monoblock amps for example - but I don't miss the sonics of those backbreaking boat anchors because of the outstanding Audio reproduction of my reference systems.
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