Trends in value of vintage / used audio equipment?

Mac is now owned by Bose.  Will it affect value knowing the Bose stigma?

Hah!!  Anybody want a PS Audio 4.6 "passive" pre-amp for a few bucks more than the cost of shipping?

I thought so.

A relevant topic for many of us. My system is comprised of equipment all purchased used, so I have a keen interest in the used market.

Observations:

Mac and Marantz markets are unique and continue to rise, with as many speculators as there are enthusiasts involved.

In general and for most speakers, value is inversely related to size and weight. Large and heavy ? I’ll pay you to take them away. Small, light prices are steady. Exceptions- Horn speakers both vintage and relatively new. JBL and Klipsch horns are viewed as legacy products and hold value. Vintage coax and triax like Jensen and Tannoy hold value. In the non horn realm, AR3 and AR3a hold value.

"Meters" are considered old-skool and the perception (correct or not) is that anything with meters was better than most when new, so the assumption is that meters = higher quality and they look cool.

There is nostalgia driven demand for silver faced equipment from the 70’s and 80’s- the equipment that 12yr old boys drooled over in catalogs and stereo stores, but could not afford at the time.

Vintage tube equipment holds value and is steadily rising in value. Dynaco has plateaued. Fisher and Scott continue to increase. Sherwood and Pilot are slowly improving. Heathkit and Eico are both rising and falling. Higher end designs continue to rise in value, cheaper stuff not so much.

What surprises me most is the CMV of Conrad Johnson and ARC equipment from the 80s to early 90s. These components were very well made, sound a lot better than "vintage" and give up very little to current models. Yet prices are almost pocket change ! You can set up an outstanding CJ or ARC tube system for about $2500 that would cost you about $10k to match using new equipment. ARC SP6 or SP8, paired with a D70, or CJ PV5 or PV10 with a MV45 or MV50. That said there are specific models that continue to rise in value, ARC SP3a, ARC SP10 come to mind.

Luxman tends to have low resale prices.  Japanese vs US pricing is an issue for new and recent models.  One can purchase directly from Japan for 50% less than US pricing, and that affects used prices if one wants to sell.  Older Luxman sounded great, and was well built, but prices have lagged in the market.  Older Luxman tube models seem to be very cheap relative to performance.  Which would you rather have, a rebuilt Dyna ST70 or an EL34 Luxman amp for the same price ?  Which would likely sound better ?

There are still deals to be found- just keep looking. Also- a key to selling that most do not understand, is that online sales are visual ! Take the time and put in the effort to CLEAN then take multiple well lit and high resolution pictures of what is offered. You would be surprised at how many sellers take a few cell phone photos of a dirty piece of equipment located in a garage, or just purchased at an estate sale, then add a price that they think will allow them to retire. Dream on. When I sell, I take pictures from all angles, and open up the piece to to the extent reasonably possible so I can include detailed pictures of the interior.

Packing and shipping 500 or 700 lbs worth of speakers is expensive and not for everyone. Relying on the local market is usually an exercise in futility, unless your speakers are much sought after, or extremely competitively priced, or you live in a major metro area, or preferably all of the above. 

Maybe that's one reason the trend is drifting away from floorstanders and towards subwoofer-augmented bookshelves and monitors.

I think this conversation would be interesting related to speakers.

Clearly higher speakers are incredibly overpriced as demonstrated by a used market which prices them at 50% of list after two or three years. And this is from a dealer who no doubt is paying 25% less than what they are trying to sell it for.

Speakers too terrible in the used market. An amplifier is a bit more rugged and handles time a lot better. Not sure how pricing of older tube versus solid-state amplifiers compares

I’ve noticed a lot of high asking prices for vintage or near-vintage gear in recent years, especially with regard to turntables and speakers. Seems to be less common with amplifiers for whatever reason. 

Some vintage speakers that guys were scoring for $100/pair back in the 2010s are now being listed for $800 plus. 
 

VU meters are useful, too, all the more so on amps with dodgy power claims (not the case with McIntosh, obviously).

Meters warn you the amp is getting kneecapped before it actually happens. Bob Carver always had the good sense to put meters on his amplifiers.

blue-green meters behind a smoke glass faceplate--what's not to like in terms of looks?

I usually like meters.  Sometimes they can be a bit overdone or underdone, but for the most part, I like them.....[typed as I stare at my MC2105.]

"I am happy to pass judgement on thecarpathian for no reason, I am happy to even just make one up!" 

Gris, I'd be disappointed if you didn't!

About the meter craze, I am not a particular fan of meters although my linestage has a meter.  It is actually useful for telling me when the linestage is stable and can be switched to fully on.  But, the real reason it is there is because the builder uses only certain very old chassis for his projects and the chassis would have a big round hole if a meter is not stuck in there.

At the last Capital Audiofest, I went around with two young guys who are both fully engaged in gear, including professionally repairing and reconditioning gear (one is 26 years old the other 17).  As a joke, we went on the hunt for the biggest and most impressive meters.  In the Western Electric room, we found monoblocs that use massive quantities of 300b tubes (of course! they manufacture and sell those tubes) and had a square meter on the front of each monobloc that had to be at least 8" by 8".  Winner! Winner!.

@guscreek

Original Chartwell LS3/5As in at least 9.9 condition.

They were given to me by my neighbor’s adult kids when he passed away a few years ago and they were emptying and selling the house. I even got an extra NOS woofer for them that I found in his workshop!

Neither of us had ever heard of Chartwell, but I knew what LS3/5As were. They let me clean out his workshop (for free) and I gave them $140. He was a NASA engineer.

The SF Bay Area is a great place to shop on CL.  There is so much money in the area that prices for used gear are crazy good imo.  When I see something interesting I'll HIFI Shark it just to get a base line.  An example:  I just picked up a pristine pair of Von Schweikert VR4s  Gen 2 for 1000.  Sam the seller allowed me to pay him "when I can" after a down of 100 via PP.  Brought them to my house as he was going to be in the area and even took them up 19 steps as I'm recovering from quad surgery.  After flipping a pair of JBL L96s I got in the FREE pile at a yard sale for 500 on ebay I'm in 500 of my own money on a pair of speakers any audio phile would at least respect.  

I always read in threads "oh it's old will die"  etc.  Lexicon MC-8, 2005 or so.  Proceed HPA 2 2000 or so.  DCM Time Frame 2000s sn 446/447 1988.  All strong and always make me smile.  2000 but got lucky on the 2000s for sure!  Magic Thors hammer made of butterflies.  

Great music does not have to cost a lot.  There is plenty of used gear that can take people used to normal music to that special level that literally gives you chills.  Now that I stream it stuns me to hear songs I have heard for decades completely new!  Even seemingly simple pop like The Cars or such becomes layered and nuanced.  Friends that come over and listen are shocked at what they miss in their system or earbuds, sigh.

Again, does your sound make you smile?  That's what counts!

Hey toddalin!  Awesome lol.  And your speaker had some cute twins...

The problem with many sellers of high-end audio is that they don't actually have to sell. They can afford to keep ridiculously overpriced gear ads up for months on end, polluting resale sites for other users. 

This contributes to a paradoxical market where dealers are often more reasonable and accommodating than private sellers.

As for McIntosh, it's the rare high-end brand that neither blows smoke up their customers' butts nor assume they are absolute cretins. For that at least, they deserve respect. Plus, their amps are pretty darn good.

My McIntosh setup is (MC 2125 amp, C28 pre amp, MQ 101 Equalizer, Node X streamer, XR 5 Mac Speakers, REL S 510 Subwoofer) is having its first service in 47 years, after all these years of providing enjoyment.  The sound in the right room and positioned properly is more realistic to me than much higher end systems I have auditioned.  Don't Knock McIntosh.  Wouldn't trade it for anything.

How about meters and a scope?

Meters?  Ok… But if it has an oscilloscope in it, ay yi yi! 🤑

If Nelson Pass puts a meter on his amps, that's good enough for me!  Of course, not on the First Watts!

 my vintage setup has meters. 

Part of my day is searching the web for cool vintage gear. Search a few sites and a few manufactures. Sansui, Marantz, Mcintosh, Klipsch, Accuphase, Luxman, and a couple others. 

Inventory has definitely gone down in the last 6 months. Prices have stabilized. There are still some asking stupid prices, but they just sit forever. Right now I'm watching a Sansui G33000 for sale at $15,000!! Yes, it's a great unit, but not at 15k, maybe $5k?

Same for speakers, there are several Klipsch K-Horns for sale, from $3000-10,000 these are vintage ones, not the new stuff. 

Also find some things are getting harder to find. Been looking for some Marantz separates, they have almost all disappeared. 

Mcintosh stuff appears to sell quickly, prices vary but not as much as other brands. Been beat out on a few pieces. Every once in a while there is some trashed Mac gear with broken knobs, faceplates that look like they were removed from a sunken ship. They make me chuckle. 

@mahgister "I installed VU meter on my wife head and she look beautiful but it does not improved the sound ..." Maybe not a Groucho quote, but made me laugh!

My impression is that fancy  item vintage prices were outrageously way up in recent years in many cases but that limited market has settled and prices have come back to earth somewhat of late.

what's this meter craze? 

Some Vintage pieces are well worth their reputation.

But i bought mine at relatively low price...

 Old gear need repairment or are at risk of...

Then the market of used gear can be overpricing them for sure...

 And we can buy  very cheap  and very good gear now (Chinese among other things) then most vintage pieces may be not a so much good deal...

But some stay because of versatility of the design which exist no more and because of the high quality of some mythical vintage (Sansui alpha for me)

I installed VU meter on my wife head and she look beautiful but it does not improved the sound ...

All VU meter i bought  were beautiful and useless ...

OP

Good question, I’ve never found a source for price trends, my sense is that prices went up quite a bit during covid, stopped rising and have been dropping some during last year.

I occasionally glance at prices on hifishark of the many vintage pieces I have bought since 2019 on hifishark:

McIntosh mx110z tube tuner/preamp

Cayin A-88T Integrated Tube Amp MK1, 16 ohm taps

JVC TT81 in Two Arm Plinth PL-2

Sony xa5400es SACD Player

Yamaha CR-1040 SS Receiver

Mitsubishi Vertical TT LT-5V

Chase RLC-1 Remote Line Controller

Technics SL-J33 Programmable TT

Sony TT FL-1 Front Loading Drawer Type TT.

Also, when I read about exceptional vintage pieces I don’t own, look them up just to know about them, I sense the same ’way up/dropping some’ pricing trend.

Without a doubt, Meters both increase the price and hold their value, much like vintage cars, i.e. the (VW, TBird, Porsche ... ) Convertible version holds/increases in value far more than the more common and less special sedans.

I have a Mac 4100. First solid state receiver they made. In a box after a factory refurb. I don't use it...wondering what it may be worth. ? I could use it to power my front two but just purchased an Anthem 325 to drive my ML ESL 11a's for that.  Curious?

Carver amps have meters.  They are not considered high end but I love the way they sound.  I have 3, would buy more.  The TFM -35 and TFM 35x are excellent and priced around 500.00  worth every penny 

Recently have had 3 Onkyo Integra M-504s amps restored.  Prices are increasing on the usual suspect sites. I've seen what I could get for $450 go up to $1000. Not all meters that look great are blue.  And oh yeah, the meters do have a use. The new new mid-fi gear just isn't up to the 80s-90s amps in my opinion. However, I do like the new streamers and DACs that can be paired with about anything.

I closely follow the used market for brands I like. It's kind of an obsession- probably from my years as a futures trader. Here's my take:

2020 COVID EIDL and PPP money gave a lot of people who don't handle money well a lot of buying power. Things that should have stayed cheap got stupid expensive. Those stimulus dollars left the weak hands and went to the strong hands. Now the weak hands find that lowering the ask is the only way to get a bid.

For at least 3 years prices have been dropping. The time it takes to sell is expanding. The market is slow and slowing. December-Feb are peak value selling months and once spring comes HiFi slides further. 

Sellers hallucinate that there must be a greater fool out there somewhere and price their gear at 1/2 or more of retail. The truth is that 1/3 of retail is the figure that gets the buyers cash into the seller's hands.

Some premium gear holds value better than others.  McIntosh- love them or hate them, has the best resale value. I don't know why exactly but they do.  PS Audio gear-which is excellent has poor resale- mostly because Paul MsGowan keeps running specials that depress the resale market. 

My beloved ARC gear is slouching toward Gomorrah as well. I had a seller beg me to buy his Ref 250 monoblocks that he listed for $8000 for $5,500.  I passed. Ref 75s are now offered at $3500-$4000. The Music Room will pay $3000 if the units are mint. Ref 5s are offered in the fives and can be bought in the $4000 range if the seller wants it gone. In December 3 units hit the market with ridiculous asking prices. This will slow the market even more.  Interestingly many of the items for sale have been offered well  over a year. Some guys offer an item over market that they really don't care to sell and will run the ad for many months to even years. I see that a lot. 

There is another factor that's difficult to quantify: Typically sellers made their purchase choices carefully and paid dearly for their prize. Many hours of bliss were spent listening to music and admiring their gear. They love their gear and it's a personal affront to them when a wise buyer makes that fair market offer. It hurts to sell in this market. Sadly, reality is cold and uncaring. As a seller the buyer is in control of the price. Sellers who don't understand that the buyer controls the price will have a very hard time selling as their gear continues to slouch in value.

Vintage gear is holding with inflation. Used high end is not selling like it used to. People are asking too much money for used gear. I notice gear that hasn’t sold for years and people still aren’t bargaining or lowering the price. It seems people feel as if they should never lose any money on any piece of high end gear they’ve bought. It’s not a classic Ferrari! 

I bought a decent Marantz 2285B years ago for under $400 on Ebay, probably 20 years ago, and the asking for these nowadays is getting close to $2K.

Similarly, I purchased a basket case 2235B for around $200K, put a bit of sweat equity into it and now it’s worth about 3 times what I paid for it.

I purchased a classic 1060 from someone who didn’t want it for $200, I need to clean it up a bit, and I’ll probably just replace the main filter caps, I wont’ sell this one since it’s such a sweet little Amp with the classic Marantz sound.

I have a Yamaha IR on my workbench right now that I need to do something about, but unfortunately, the front panel has some wear on it that will make this more a labor of love than something that will increase in value.

Marantz was the Cadillac of receivers in the 70’s for good reason. They also looked great, something that is severely missed in most of today’s gear.

Bottom line is that certain brands from the 60’s and 70’s have continued to go up in price because of reputation and looks, and others may be better technically, and probably overpriced for what you get, but they’re going up at roughly the same rate as the stock market.

No one has to tell me, I already know I'm a low percentile kind of guy. But I collect Carver amps, and I have noticed an increase in prices. I think the increase is ahead of inflation. In the past I was (happily) surprised at the value of Kenwood KD 500 and 550 TT's (I have 2 in the TT stable). As new equipment prices climb out of the reach of common folk, the market for "Vintage" will grow.

Under the presumption that technology improves the performance of the newest gear over anything from the past, and because most buyers put a premium on buying something new (meaning instantaneous depreciation after purchase), all gear lose value quite quickly.  However, some gain favor with enough buyers that the price slide comes to a halt and can even reverse.  While it is extremely rare that this reversal can be so extreme that the vintage price exceeds the original price.  Western Electric gear is an example.  Their amps and speaker components can sell for many times the original price with inflation factored in.  Even parts are expensive.  The input transformers in my amp now sell for $10k a pair, and the output transformers sell for about that much too.  Their wire used to hook up telephone switch boards can now command up to $10k for an 8” diameter spool.

To be on the level (cheap pun), I used to have a lil' LED box that would read VU & power at the amp output...and became obvious what mattered in 'play'....

Education is where it happens....])

My original GAS Ampzilla must take the crown with its decadel VU meters! 

I’ve got blue meters, and it’s not a Mac. Best of both worlds.

kidding…I have nothing against Macs:)

How 'bout a Mac in pink to appeal to the Barbie crowd ?

Oh, Puleze......😬

I've had meters, LCD displays, all that....Mho, I like the R/T displays on my monitors.....rich beyond one's wildest deviations.... ;)

...subject was 'sposed to be 'vintage appreciation v. $'d....

(...and there's those who say I'm not focused....*sly sheesh* )

@thecarpathian 

Meters are definitely a selling feature.

How much would the sales of McIntosh decline if they ditched the meters and black glass. 50%?

PS. This may seem like a bit of a dig at McIntosh, but is more a comment on successful marketing campaigns.

I am happy to pass judgement on thecarpathian for no reason, I am happy to even just make one up! 

The bids on old Yamaha, Denon and Marantz, Pioneer, Onkyo, Technics, Adcom amps and receivers are going through the roof on shopgoodwill - meaning well above ebay prices. 2-800 bucks. Sansui and Nakamichi are another category, they sell for way higher.

Which makes me think they are not reselling them, necessarily. I think they are worth those bids but they are no longer great deals. 

There are a fair amount of newer gear, Peach Audio, NAD, Rotel, Emotiva that sell for less than their ebay values. 

Not sure if it's a trend. But e.g. a decent Denon receiver for 300 bucks is fun toy, will drive any speaker and easy entry into hifi. 

I am absolutely disturbed by all the youtube videos of warehouses full of vintage hifi gear. They should be used and enjoyed by would-be audiophiles. 

[[data to show trends in the value of vintage and used audio equipment (high-end or otherwise)?]]

too vague a question without referencing a time range...

Its been a buyers market for 3 yrs or more. One must have a very desirable piece  and/or have a fire sale price on it to get a bite or sale

I like meters of all kinds I got some old carvers that have meters.had to watch ferris buhlers day off just to see them again.have the nakamichi  flip cassette  deck seen in another movie.it makes me happy. Better than drugs and etoh because it lasts.enjoy the music and life.

I’m a fan of McIntosh stereo amps, preamps and integrated amps. (I know that the latter are not everyone’s cup of tea.) For used units in good condition, prices have continuously risen, at least for the units I am interested in.

@stereo5 ,

No, it’s not at all a dig at McIntosh.

It’s the observation that a lot of people who have any old cheap receiver that the maker stuck meters on thinks it’s some rare ’vintage’ diamond worth more more than it is. That’s it.

You know, it would have been nice if you simply asked me if it was a dig at McIntosh and ended it there. But you decided that it was before I even had a chance to respond and then somehow got the impression that it bothers me.

Maybe in the future you could wait for a response before passing judgement.

“If it's got meters, tack on a bunch more money than it's worth.”

Wish that were true with my Van Alstine modified Dynaco amp from the 70’s. Lol

@thecarpathian , A dig at McIntosh? Why would you even care, and why does it bother you?  

In Australia at least I would say the value of used audio is falling just like the Aussie$.

Amen.