Townshend Springs under Speakers
Couldn't find the Wilson reference, but this review is with Magico S7s which are at the edge of the art for cabinet construction: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-townshend-audio-speaker-podiums |
FWIW here is another reference to using the Podiums with Magico speakers: vac_man13 posts06-29-2021 12:39pmI just recently replaced Isoacoustic Gaias under my Magico A3's with the Townshend Podiums, and I must say, the results have been astonishing. The bass is much tighter, faster and articulate; in contrast -- and I have to admit that I did not really appreciate this before making the change -- the bass was kind of bloated and did not have the degree of control that I now hear. More importantly, though, the mid-range and high frequencies became much more open and detailed, and with that, better imaging and a much improved soundstage. It's as if I just substantially upgraded my speakers. The Townshend Podiums work, and they work extremely well. |
That certainty appears to be a contributing factor (Speaker cabinet construction and type of floor/surface they are sitting on). ) Seems what Richard Vandersteen was alluding to given his post testing comments and results in his two seperate rooms. You have to give him credit for actually trying a product with his own speakers. I already gave him credit… actually it was cash ;) So I’ll stick with the spikes they came with. |
Sound Anchors does apparently make stands for 2Cs as shown in this ad. I cannot speak to "most people," but my large monitors each weigh 105 pounds and have the densest cabinets of any speakers I have owned. They are mounted to 70-pound Sound Anchor stands that sit on commercial carpet with a thick/dense foam pad over a concrete slab-on-grade. For years, I used Sound Anchor's own hardened steel spikes and later edenSound's Bear Paws to spike the speaker/stands to the concrete floor. I more recently tried decoupling the speakers from the floor by first using Herbie's dBNeutralizer products (giant fat dots and gliders) and then I tried damped springs. Even with the dense cabinets, heavy stands, and concrete floor, I like the sound of the decoupled speakers on springs better than how they sounded spiked to the floor. Not a night and day difference, but I perceive improvements in clarity, tone, decay, and the naturalness of the presentation. |
Sound Anchors does apparently make stands for 2Cs as shown in this ad. I have never seen a set on any other speakers than on Vandersteens . Well lets suppose there is a difference.
if we excited the speaker with an impulse then it is possible that we could see something different between them in decay? And if we put in a known broadband signal, then we could compare he two in the frequency domain, and look at amplitude and phase.We could also compare the cross correlation of the known signal with the measured signal.Ideally that would appear as the Dirac delta function. If one was DDF and the other smeared out, then technically the better impulse response is higher fidelity, even if one likes the other one better. With tones it sll seems harder to do. The main way it could not be measurable, is if it was not different. Then the main way it could be perceived as different, is if was purely psychological.. |
"I think Wilson would fall into the ’inert cabinet’ group, so I think that busts your theory." @tobes, there is no theory to "bust". I thought my position was very clear when I wrote earlier in this thread that both (Star Sound and Townshend) are exceptionally good at what they do. That is how I genuinely view this. It is very apparent from the testimonials on this thread if I’m interpreting them right, ’Both’ are excellent approaches to manage vibration and resonance. @tvad and @grannyring have used both products and praised both of them. As is nearly always inevitable with High End audio products the results that people report are going to vary precisely because of numerous variables that have to be accounted for. So it is no surprise that some who have "inert" speaker cabinets will prefer spring isolation and others with same type of speaker will prefer the alternative solution (Richard Vandersteen). Those who own speakers with less inert and more lively cabinets will also find success with either type of vibration management approach. It would all depend upon what are the addition variables or circumstances involved. I just don’t think that lines drawn in the sand has to be the default stance. In my opinion this thread raised some insightful commentary and questions. For those interested in addressing speaker/audio component isolation from resonance/vibration there is perhaps more awareness of ways to tackle the problem due to this thread. Charles |
@charles1dad I didn't read your comments as a criticism of either the spike or isolation approach. I was commenting on this postulation: I could easily imagine that people with “I’ll say better made” speaker cabinets, prefer spikes and mass to pin them spatially.And that the isolators may help actually people who’s cabinets tend to excite the floor.My point was the Townshend Podiums have been reported to work with speakers having both very inert/dense/rigid cabinet materials and more conventional MDF cabinets - and speakers of all shapes and sizes for that matter. So not sure if construction can be used as an accurate barometer for predicting the performance of one approach over the other. My podiums are scheduled arrive next week, so at the moment I can't express an opinion on their performance, but I have prefered the Herbies isolators over rigid coupling in my room/system (hence my intrest in the Podiums). |
@tobes, I did mention that it is certainly possible that speaker enclosure construction could be a variable that favors the choice of a particular isolation product. As more data points are accumulated It seems as I wrote earlier in this thread, that multiple factors are in play. Thus my contention that both products will be quite effective in mitigating vibration and resonance. Congratulations in regard to getting the Townshend Podiums. I am sure they will be an asset to your audio system. Charles |
To the people who follow vibration management solutions in audio, this may be of interest to you and contains no “word salad”. Millercarbon, this speaker ringing thing has me perplexed and word has it that you appear to be or are about to become a dealer or their new US representative for the English spring-based company, so I have a couple of questions for you. Without springs the cabinet causes the floor to vibrate. This vibration manifests as ringing that can be seen on a seismograph. It also manifests as a blurring of image focus and harmonic coloring that can be heard. Are we to believe speakers ring in the sub-hertz regions and this noise actually transcends into audible noise that the human ear easily detects? I have always led the understanding that Sound Pressure Levels were the culprit that vibrates flooring and not speaker systems. This can easily be proven by taking a pair of subwoofers, putting some volume behind them, and standing in front, sides, or rear of the cabinet and you will experience some floor vibration. Now place any quality product of ours or yours under them and put your toes anywhere on the floor or directly under the speakers and like magic, the floor no longer is active other than a sense of limited energy formed by residual, variable, and constant Sound Pressure Levels. Supporting Documentation: http://starsoundtechnologies.com/reviewsDetail.php?37 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAoJ_-Bl2Ig When Sound Pressure Levels are present and speakers build resonance on all smooth surfaces to the point at which the drivers no longer fire the way they were designed (360° dispersion patterns being the majority) and without a mechanical exit to reduce resonance build-up, how do springs compensate for this problem? Not too sure what is meant by image blurring either. If the image begins to distort, is that not a problem related to resonance build-up on the speaker drivers? We know that resonance is attracted to metals making speaker frameworks an ideal collection point so how do springs compensate for this problem? Our theorem is very different in comparison to spring isolation. We strongly believe there is far more noise generated by ELECTRICITY in comparison to the inaudible sub-harmonic vibrations you claim to be the primary issue affecting racks, electronics, and speakers. Noise from the power source is very audible. We have all heard electrical panels hum, transformers buzzing, and felt the heat generated by tubes and power supplies. Until listeners deal with the noise and resonance in their components and chassis, no one can convince us that the major problems and operational inefficiencies are caused by vibrations coming from the inaudible frequencies located in flooring. Seismographs are required to prove it exists but my ears still have to be convinced. If there is noise in the original signal, there is a continuous source of noise throughout the system. If your primary electronics equipment racking cannot manage resonance efficiently, what you hear from your speakers may be problems related back to the equipment rack - itself. That said, our Company has been working on solutions for resonance build-up on loudspeakers. We are currently listening to Rosso Fiorentino Siena Series 2 loudspeakers and have used PBN, Eggleston Works Custom Ivy Signature, Caravelle, Revel Studio, Wilson Max, Magico Q3, vintage B&W Matrix3, Dunlavy, YG Acoustics Sonja, and a pair of Dual 18” Custom Subwoofers by McCauley Sound. I have never experienced ringing or heard image blurring or harmonic coloring resulting from floor noise on any of these systems. What speakers are you using where these highly descriptive problems appear? I will get a set in so we can also hear this phenomenon for ourselves. I am not here for an argument, just more knowledge. Springs do function as we have used and tested them in the past. We found their primary issues are weight capacity, fatigue life, minimal surface contact area, and multiple-use limitations. This new Resonance Energy Transfer model delivers on weight capacity and parts longevity, is a scalable technology with far more applications in both audio and other industries. On a negative note: Sound tests that require jumping up and down in a sonic environment are new to us. Comparing a premium isolation device costing "thousands of dollars" to another part costing just “two dollars” is meaningless and questions one’s level of intelligence. Your videos do prove how vulnerable humans are to the age-old idiom that “seeing is believing”. I am not a marketing specialist but from a sound engineer’s point of view, the fix is in before the video even begins. We wish you well in your new audio career, but when challenged to the point when your eyes have to tell your ears what they hear via marketing nonsense, we will respond accordingly. Any answers to the questions are greatly appreciated. Any questions will be answered based on our experience as well. Best regards, Robert, SST |
@audiopoint Millercarbon, this speaker ringing thing has me perplexed and word has it that you appear to be or are about to become a dealer or their new US representative for the English spring-based company This is quite an assertion and you’d better make sure it’s actually true before committing that to type. Even MC’s ethics I believe are above pumping a product for many months shortly before he becomes a dealer. This would be quite disappointing if true so I wouldn’t speculate if that’s what you mean by "word has it". Hopefully MC can simply set the record straight and deny this is true. |
Hello, grannyring, You are one of a few here on this forum who experienced listening in our Energy Room, so your opinions are always appreciated. I remember, some five years back when you sold the platforms and moved from the great north to the southern side of the country, I thought we might have lost another good one to life’s changes as it was tough enough when we lost The Audiophile’s Wife. Glad to see you never really left. Since your system went through many changes and you are now listening in a different environment, would you be willing to take a second listen now that your new system is in place? However due to the virus coupled with the raw material markets going ‘nuts’, we are experiencing backorders on some model numbers. Foundries are working round the clock to fill their orders, but the demand is outweighing everyone’s capability to deliver timely. We would be willing to offer up some inventory for a listen as we are beginning to close in on a full recovery. You can EM me and we will make those arrangements. Sincerely, Robert |
It is more than just inert cabinet…i will chose my words carefully, time and phase correct drivers with same filters, inert cabinet that converts vibration to heat, pistonic drivers. Think thru what a spring does to a system like that. IF your ear/brain not sensitive to some of the above, spring away ! So no doubt, many speakers will benefit from a variety of schemes, Townsend hardly has a monopoly…. @roxy54 You are one of the few here who can measure RT60, try harder on the previous posters well thought out possible test method. Finally, Apogee Stages on Sound Anchors…. |
@three_easy_payments, Was not meant in a negative way and apologize in advance for any misconceptions with regard to his personal goals and/or personal ethics in life. Rumors exist in every business model and from a manufacturer’s perspective, the Audio Industry is an extremely small world where scuttlebutt travels like wildfire and the unimaginable does exist and takes place all the time. No big deal - OK? I have personally been insulted by the man many times and could have a few of his posts removed but what does that make me? I take good with bad and take no offense to other’s opinions. Been on this forum since 2000, so there is not a lot I have not seen or names been called. As long as someone benefits and learns more about their system and music - that is the importance that drives discovery. If Miller has the opportunity to work in the Audio Industry, he has obviously earned it through personal effort and passion and we would cheerfully welcome him aboard in any capacity. Best regards, Robert |
No. The smearing and ringing is very much in the normal audio band. The sub region thing comes from springs working down to very low frequency. How low depends on spring and load. The goal with our systems is to get it down to below where it matters for us, somewhere in the low single digits something like that. "Ringing" is sort of a metaphor for a whole host of vibrations. It starts with the voice coil and driver. These excite the baffle and speaker cabinet. The speaker cabinet excites the floor, which in turn excites the walls and everything else. None of this is a one-way street. Watch the Ledermann video for a great illustration of how vibrations travel up and down back and forth in complex patterns. "Ringing" is shorthand for this complex network of patterns. The big benefit of springs, be they Townshend or Nobsound or whatever, is they allow the speaker alone to dissipate all this energy. This happens a lot faster with a speaker cabinet than a whole room. It is real easy, and pretty darn impressive, to do this and hear just how big a difference this makes. I have always had the understanding that Sound Pressure Levels were the culprit that vibrates flooring and not speaker systems. Yes and why can’t it be both? Surely it is. The mechanical aspect of it is however a lot more than people think. Heard it at my place, heard it even more dramatically at Brandon Wade’s recently. Mechanical transmission is huge. Have to hear it to believe it. |
Still waiting on delivery of my Townshend speaker bars. Should be here middle of next week. I think that putting my speakers on the nobsound spring footers altered the frequency balance a bit along with the de-coupling effects. No doubt due to raising the speakers a bit. They sound was super vivid, but I think there was a tiny suck-out in the richness region, so somethings lost a bit of body, and the tone got overall a bit more open and brighter. As I've said, I'm hoping to maintain more of the regular speaker tonality with the Townshend bars. |
Hopefully MC can simply set the record straight and deny this is true. @millercarbon states: Its true. ;) There is ringing. Also no matter what happens the haters will see it only in the worst possible light. Definitely. Ugh. Ethics to hell. I despise this behavior as much as stock brokers who engage in front-running. Not necessarily illegal but so ethically icky. |
And without some measurements, then even a “valid opinion” may not be a provable fact. It’s still anecdotal at best. Did you think this was ASR? Subjective impressions are the mainstay of this forum. Nonetheless I think that in this case there is measurement available - even live at shows - that demonstrates the isolation offered by the Townshend devices. Whether or not this is preferable is up to the individual. I don't see any evidence of the isolation or 'mechanical sink' capabilities of the spiking approach. Apart from 3rd hand reports from Richard Vandersteen (albeit weighty opinion in relation to use with Vandersteen speakers), it does seem to me that the naysayers are made up of people with no experience of the Townshend products - some with another axe to grind. Most everyone who has used them or heard them demonstrated has a positive opinion, anecdotal as that may be. |
Did you think this was ASR? OK… What is ASR? Do you recommend it? Apart from 3rd hand reports from Richard Vandersteen (albeit weighty opinion in relation to use with Vandersteen speakers), So what makes his speakers less responsive to springs? it does seem to me that the naysayers are made up of people with no experience of the Townshend products - some with another axe to grind. I am not a total naysayer, I just want to know how they work… and whether they would work with my speakers. (Before I spend the money.) And academically… what makes them work with some speakers and not others seems pretty interesting. My speakers are currently on a concrete slab, but will be soon moving to another house on a hardwood floor (on joists). They have been on spikes for 15+ years (on the concrete slab). I could picture having a slab of granite on springs, and the speakers on spikes on the granite. This assumes that the new floor might be worbling the speaker. There is no axe. |
OK… What is ASR?Audio Science Review. A forum where only measurements are considered and subjective opinion is pretty much ridiculed and shouted down. Personally I think it is useful for the measurements - some of which I've found to corroborate my subjective opinion of components I've owned and got rid of (years before), but subjective assessment doesn't count on that forum. So what makes his speakers less responsive to springs?Don't know. Given the wide range of speakers that have had positive endorsements, if it doesn't work with Vandersteen speakers they would seem to be an outlier. The other question is whether Richard tried the Podiums on a range of his speakers or just one of his top models which had been highly optimised for another approach? I am not a total naysayer, I just want to know how they work… and whether they would work with my speakers. (Before I spend the money.)That's wise. I've experimented with other (cheaper) isolation options and found them more effective than spiking for my equipment/room. That, along with people using the Podiums with same brand/type of speaker to excellent effect, gave me sufficient confidence to bite the bullet. I'd advise to read/research as much as you can and attend a demo if possible (wasn't for me). |
@audiopoint, Yes, we are now in the Nashville area and loving it. Also, The Audiophile’s Wife is seriously considering writing again. If fact, we are contemplating a shared site where we sell audio cables and she hosts her blog as well as other fun antics. I did have some Apprentice platrforms in my rig here for a season. The speakers I used them under were the Acoustic Zen Crescendo and my current Dali speakers which I have had for some 4-5 years now. Always liked the sound of your products and that Energy Room you built for Andrew is a listening experience I will never forget. Never! Just a sensory delight. Even the sound of my own voice was startling in that room. |
I do know that using springs on suspended wood floor construction works and I did the experiments. My thought is that the floor was picking up the vibrations from the speakers and transferring the vibrations throughout the structure. This caused bloated bass and smearing of the music. Those that have concrete floors would need to weigh in on their experience before and after springs. |
Just to throw my two cents in... In addition to altering the number of springs and the position you put them in your Nobsound units, another thing you can try is getting 5/8 heat shrink tubing (non glue inside type) and cut it at the length of the spring then heat. Just enough spring will be exposed at the ends once shrunk to put them in the bases. This will dampen the springs action. Try doing some or all of them. |
For those skeptical about the effects of spring footers (and it's good to be skeptical), we had a discussion over on ASR on the subject. First I'd note that when I mentioned the sonic change from putting spring footers between my speakers and wood floor, a member there whose specialty was literally noise vibration (also did work for some turntable companies) replied: ------------------ No surprise at all. Spikes couple the speaker to the floor so, depending on the floor type, spiking the speakers to it is just like adding a huge area cabinet vibration to the sound. Using polymer type footers only absorbs vibration at relatively high frequencies so couples the cabinet vibration to the floor at low frequencies as well. Springs of the correct stiffness will decouple the speaker from the floor giving a similar increase in quality to a well engineered cabinet over a crappy one but probably bigger (coupled floor area being bigger than cabinet area). It is basic noise and vibration stuff I used to do research in 45 years ago. As a rule of thumb for the isolation to be effective over the whole frequency range the isolating springs will deflect around 1" due to the weight of the mass being decoupled. The smaller the deflection the higher the frequency above which isolation will be taking place." ------------------------- https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/springs-under-my-speakers-whats-happening... Another member posted measurements showing coupling vs decoupling: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/speaker-de-coupling.13655/post-896618 Finally, this is very interesting. It's a video from the Swiss speaker manufacturer Credo, explaining the effects of isolation vs a speaker sitting on a floor or spiked, demonstrated with measurements. It includes measurements of a Townshend isolation platform along with their own platform measurements. They also measure the effects of such isolation in terms of the speaker sound in an actual room. It seems to map quite well to the effects I heard in my room: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ihzvD3urc4&t |
Are we to believe speakers ring in the sub-hertz*** regions and this noise actually transcends into audible noise that the human ear easily detects?Great question. More to the point though in the application of loudspeakers, is that fact they reproduce the entire audible frequency range, and with that energise the enclosures. If one where to consider the speaker enclosure as a very rigid balloon, that when the bass/mid-bass driver moves in and out will shake, pressurise and depressurise, especially when driven hard. The bracing effectively creates smaller surface areas with distinct sizes of wall material, depending on the engineering qualities of the enclosure. This creates smaller nodes where frequencies can excite the enclosure walls. An easy way to test this out on your own speakers is to play a frequency sweep of white noise, at levels you listen at in your own system. Assuming the track has the same amplitude throughout, you will hear the accumulated sound of the cabinet and the signal the driver is reproducing. I heard a single Focal BE 1038 subjected to such a sweep and heard multiple large frequency breakouts from the cabinets, clearly colouring the voicing of the speakers. This largely evidenced what we heard when listening to a pair that had been traded in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSB-nmlbkdA Nikola Tesla vs Mythbusters - this has some good information regarding this phenomenon. So the bracing inside a speakers enclosure will create different frequency nodes that can be excited depending on the engineering controls of energies that are introduced to by the drivers, throughout the audible frequency range. Engineering controls of vibrations can vary in effectiveness considerably, and will have an impact on the overall voicing the loudspeaker** delivers. ** distinctions are important when explaining anything, I often use the term drivers instead of speakers, because often people use the term speaker/s for that which I mostly use loudspeaker.** *** Sub-hertz, are you referring to a frequency cycle under once cycle per second? |
If the floor is wobbly, springs can work, if the speaker is on solid ground, 3 spikes is preferred.If one would consider a solid reinforced concrete floor to be "not wobbly" it has been my personal experience that sprung isolation works significantly better than on a so called "wobbly floor". The main reason I concluded was that instead of the floor being excited by the energies created in a loudspeaker enclosure deforming, that the higher percentage of energies are deforming the springs. The floor no matter what it is, has a resonant frequency, however the more it can withstand deformation the higher the percentage the spring will be required to deform in order to effectively hold the loudspeaker as motionless as possible. The concept that energy is stored in the springs used to uphold a loudspeaker is not entirely accurate, it deforms and returns to status quo with the load, and will move above and below the status quo holding the mass placed upon it. The ideal is to have an engineered spring loading for the mass it’s to isolate a broad range of frequencies, all within the audible range. Such an engineering precedence is used in correctly assembling cars with different rated springs, depending on the result desired. One spring does not suit all applications, and so, it is the same with different loudspeakers. I will suggest that the more rigid the car structure, the body, the more effective the suspension system can be engineered to support it. The results are much more predictable. Last time I checked, I was not driving my speakers down a bumpy roadyou have it upside down, your loudspeakers ARE the bumpy road! |
yep, just look at the impulse test, a few peers… Jim Theil, Dunlavey ( RIP )… odd that Kef chose to fix the impulse response of the LS50 in the digital domain. Also odd non Vandersteen owners take issue with his listening and measurements…of springs… all are free to listen and decide for themselves…. what did you just call it in another thread ; “imagined enemy “ indeed, look homeward…. |
I guess I should see what’s happening homeward as you say, but my brother who I talk with hasn’t expressed much concern. Americans ask me about the whole Covid lock down in Australia, my brother gets on with life, not worried by it. He's safely up in Queensland. Mind you, it should be understood the total deaths attributed to Sars Cov 2 in Australia is 1039 https://covidlive.com.au/report/deaths Like any other disease, get on with the treatment plan. We’re not back where we were a year ago, doctors have learnt a lot by actually studying this little monster. |
Also odd non Vandersteen owners take issue with his listening and measurements…of springs… all are free to listen and decide for themselves…If you're refering to me, for the record I have no issue with Vandersteen's listening or measurements. I haven't seen the measurements, nor would I dispute a person's personal preference. Again I have "no idea" why spring isolation would be less effective with Vandersteen speakers. Others have postulated reasons. |
@rixthetrick They are Vicoustic DC2 diffusers. Many hfi shops and outlets stock them. The ceiling mounted diffusers made a surprising improvement. Not exactly great aesthetically, but luckily my wife lets me (mostly) do as I please with that room. @tobes not aimed at you at all.Ok, I thought my post may have been misinterpreted so just wanted to clarify. |
Sure a lot of CRAP talkin from you Mr tsushima1. Do you have an issue with the product or MC? Jab Jab Jab.. As for a US rep.. Why stop there.. Jealousy always brings unkind words. If you don't like a product, then say so. If you don't like a person PM them in private. Praise in public, chew in private.. It makes a better AG for everyone. I'd appreciate that.. Y'all!! Regards |
