Will some new class D amplifiers outperforming the current ones appear soon
(the newest ones i know were released a few years ago)?
Class D amps attract me as I consider them the most ecological ones with obvious non-auditionable benefits.
I have no doubts that they posses the maximum ratio performance/sound quality among the amplifiers of all classes.
At the same time, the sound quality the class D amplifiers that I have auditioned produce, although is quite good,
but not yet ideal (for my taste).
I use PS Audio Stellar S300 amp with PS audio Gain Cell pre/DAC with Thiel CS 3.6 speakers in one of my systems.
The sound is ok (deep bass, clear soundstage) but not perfect (a bit bright and somehow dry, lacking warmness which might be more or less ok for rock but not for jazz music).
I wonder if there are softer sounding class D amps with the same or better details and resolution. Considering two reasonable (as to the budget) choices for test, Red Dragon S500 and Digital Audio Company's
Cherry 2 (or Maraschino monoblocks), did anybody compare these two?
"I wonder if there are softer sounding class D amps "
Not gonna happen,
I would suggest to swap the pre amp for a tube based model, like one from Audio Research or Modwright Industries or Manley Labs, this will inject some much needed warmth and beauty of tone and color, with great textures. A great sounding pre amp makes all the difference.
Try an ICEpower based model. I find them quite warm sounding. The equal of some Parasound linear amps, and the better of some megabuck class A amps to my ears.
I'd ignore the class though, just go by what you hear.
Yeah, imagine coming to Audiogon, and saying "This is my setup and I want to buy this kind of gear, what would you suggest?" and actually getting useful, contextual advice. What kind of place would this be?
I have a set of Mola Mola Kaluga amps and Makua Pre-Amp for sale on this site that are brand new and never been used. Sorry for the blatant advertisement, but it is Class D at its best.
The Rogue Hydra and Medusa are Class D. With the stock JJs it is slightly bright. Roll in a pair of NOS Mullard Long Plates and you will have a neutral to warm Class D.
I have had the Hydra for years and it is a spectacular Class D. It has taken a back seat to my Art Audio gear (I am importer for Art Audio) but still keep the Rogue because it is relatively small, energy efficient and I use it as a check in speaker design to ensure my speakers work well with neutral to slightly forward amps. I have a pair of NOS Cifte tubes which make the Rogue a hair forward but deliver an amazing soundstage. Mullards are what you need with it. The Hydra does require a bit of care in pairing with a preamp. I can’t speak about the Stellar but I did have it paired with the BHK signature preamp and the match was pretty excellent. I have no relationship with Rogue or PS Audio.
I think its a matter of gear combination and synergy.
Ive had SS and tube class A (last one with 300B tubes) and now I have the Nord Acoustics NC500DM class D amp with Rev D boards and Sparkos Op Amps and I prefer it over all of my previous amps. Its cristal clear, with amazing dynamics, incredible soundstage and neutral tone. My previous class A amps sounded "dirtier" to me.
I think that when you have a considerable transparent amp (as speakers), it will show the flaws of your source. The more I improved the quality of the source (AC Power, digital signal processing, cables, DAC, etc) the warmer the amp got.
I've heard +100k systems with class A and AB systems that, to me, sounded harsher (and worse) than my current around 20k system.
"try an ICEpower based model": The PS Audio Stellar amps are based upon ICEpower already and he mentioned they are a bit bright to him. When I tested them I didn't find them bright and performed quit well. I eventually went with D-Sonic as I found a better balanced amp with the right amount of low and high.
Could always look to inject a tube into the line with the likes of Schiit Freya+. You can by-pass, differential, or light up the tubes and have three types of sound.
Class D , is to clinical , it is detailfull , but you can’t “ feel” the music. You listen to the speakers. Class A gives you a warm sound.:you experience the music. You feel you more connected. A good example :Ear amps. Best I ever heared.
I’m seriously considering trying Legacy’s I - V 7 D class seven channel amplifier. Ice class. Its being released late this fall. Currently I have an ATI signature series 6005. I have all Legacy up front with Focus SE’s and Marquis. Legacy is releasing it in a 5 channel also, so I’ll wait. Would appreciate any feedback as they show up
musicloversaudio: "Just no. Thin and uninvolving are the characteristics of class D, plus noisy as heck."
musicloversaudio,
Just your "noisy as heck" comment demonstrates you are either just making things up or have absolutely no experience listening to class D. Virtually all class D amps have extremely low distortion and are the exact opposite of "noisy as hell", they are the least noisy of all existing amp types by a wide margin. Everyone who has ever heard class D will concede this because it’s so obvious, music emerges from an inky black, dead silent background. I thought everyone already knew this is one of the main characteristics of class D What exactly is your problem?
noble100"demonstrates you are either just making things up or have absolutely no experience....they are the least noisy of all existing amp types by a wide margin. Everyone who has ever heard class D will concede this...What exactly is your problem?
Perhaps his "problem" is that "everyone" does not agree with your opinion, assessment, or reasoning and you can insist that you are correct and try to insult others into agreeing with you and so the "problem" is in you’re refusal to properly acknowledge, accept, and reconcile with those with who you do not find yourself in complete agreement.
I've heard Class 'D' and think it's ironic that it's Class 'D' because a 'D' or an 'F' is what it deserves IMO..
Well, in my experience, my current class D amp is ultra dead silent, and not so much (by a wide margin) my last two class A valve amps, one of them a more expensive 300B valve amp.
This much better signal to noise ratio of my class D amp makes it sound much cleaner and with less grain. Highs sound smoother on it because of that.
Thin? Well, if you get the right gear to feed it (AC Power, DAC, correct digital signal processing, neutral to warm preamp, etc) you can get a very detailed sound, with amazing soundstage and dynamics, with out losing smoothness, body and tone, at all.
Im sure you can get good sound with class A amp, but you also can do it with a good class D amp, at better price in most cases. Also lighter in weight, cooler at running temperature and with less energy consumption.
I'm surprised at all the disdain for Class D amps in this thread and a couple of others. They are not the be-all and end-all, but they can offer great performance at a pretty reasonable price.
I have a Peachtree Nova 300 in my office system with Focal Electra 1008 BE speakers and am currently listening to jazz from my Magnum Dynalabs Etude tuner. The sound is very full-bodied and lifelike, with lots of detail. Horns sound great, drumming is very tight and realistic, and it has a great soundstage for the small space I'm in. The Peachtree, which includes a nice DAC, headphone amp, and phono stage is pretty small and light and doesn't suck up a lot of juice. I scratch my head a bit about it's claim of 300 watts per channel, it doesn't seem like it, but I rarely crank up the system in my office.
My bedroom system has a Wyred 4 Sound ST-1000 MKII amp (460 watts per channel) with Crites modded KLF-30 speakers and an ARC LS26 pre. It bested amps from Krell, Parasound, Lexicon, Rotel, Emotiva, and Carver, and a new one is $2,000 (I paid $1600 for a B Stock Demo). It doesn't have the lush mid-range of my current tube monoblocks or quite the same amount of detail, but it's powerful, has excellent bass control, and doesn't take up much space. It's a little on the warm side, most notably the top end is a little rolled off, which is actually a good thing when paired up with the Klipsch speakers. The worst thing I can say about it is that it's kind of ugly. It's a bit "industrial" looking.
Does it compare well against amps costing much more? No. Does it hold its own against other offerings in its price range? I think so, at least of the equipment I've heard.
Anyone stating class D is "noisy as hell" very obviously doesn't know what the heck they're talking about. It's simply not scientifically or anecdotally true. It's not my opinion that class D is quiet as hell, it is a scientific fact. I stand by my statement that anyone claiming class D is "noisy as hell" has either never auditioned it or purposefully lying. Have you ever heard class D? If so, would you describe it as noisy as hell?
Elizabeth,
Class AB Brystons are decent amps for Magnepans but, if you ever want to try out amps that have less distortion, much better bass, superior dynamics, are much quieter (much higher Signal to Noise ratio), a third of the size and weight as well as consume a fraction of the electricity, check out a good class D or two.
The comment about noise is a puzzler. "Noisy" in what way? I'm using a 460 watt per channel amp with 102 dB sensitive speakers and a tube preamp. If I stick my ear literally right next to the tweeter I can hear the faintest amount of hiss.
Whenever I turn on my Class D amp, my dog goes running out of the room...
That's the residual switching noise coming out of your tweeters freaking your dog out, because the output filter can,t get rid of it totally without effecting the audio band even more than it does with phase shift. If the switching frequency were higher then the filter can be higher, and filter out all of the switching noise without any phase shift down into the audio band.
Technics does this with GaN Technology in their $$$$$$K SE-R1 Class-D power amp with a switching frequency at 1.5mhz instead of what everyone else uses at 600khz
Clearthink’s attitude towards, indifference to, or hate of, all things class D seems obvious. :-P
It's pretty hard not to, when you know somethings not quite right in the upper-mids and highs, and then see this kind of phase shift going on in that same area https://ibb.co/48SSmLL . It’s enough to make clearthink think?
George. I own a class D integrated hybrid. I know from your past posts you are not a fan of class D. You say you hear somethings not quite right in the upper-mids and highs, and phase shift going on in those areas. Could you, respectfully, enlighten me as to what you are hearing? Please explain it to me, and I will try to understand what you are referring to.
I have owned various amps over the years, mostly A/B types, and my class D amp easily outperformed all of them.
You say you hear somethings not quite right in the upper-mids and highs, and phase shift going on in those areas. Could you, respectfully, enlighten me as to what you are hearing?
Not just me, unless you’ve been hiding under a rock, it a common complaint.
What I hear from that technology, is dependent on where the "output filter is set" to filter out the switching noise.
1:Too high and it lets through too much switching noise but with reduced phase shift into the audio band, this to me sound hard and bright on music.
2:To low and it roll off the highs and causes too much phase shift into the audio band, but it filters out more of the switching frequency, this to me sound soft and opaque in the highs, and not involving in the mids, but at least it’s not hard.
Nuforce with their many different 9 models tried different versions V1 V2 V3 in them, of the above output filter that were retrofit-able for customer that had issues with the sound. One of those version filters that was set way too high actually caused bluing of the Wilson Watt Puppy tweeter voice coil with HF switching noise (that only twoleftears dog can hear), didn’t stop them working just blue’d the voice coil with "undetectable to us" switching noise that was let through to them slowing cooking them over time. Naturally the diaphragms had to be replaced, he got rid of those amps.
I know from your past posts you are not a fan of class D.
BTW, Incorrect I’m not a fan of it’s two Achilles Heels, dead time and switching frequency. And I have said many times I’ll be the first to get one when they don’t have these problems and are a module I can buy an throw in a box like they do now with the old technology, but say they "modify it" so they can charge $$$$$ for, if you look at a $10k Contiuum Class-D, it has a $100 class-D module in it (modified of course), the same module is used in the $500 Red Dragon S500 class-D, this is not uncommon.
Actually thanks to twoleftears ’s dog, this would be a great way for Class-D owners if they have a young’ish dog to tell if their output filter is set too high or too low, as they will be one the other, or combo of both, eek!
Just watch to see if they react when in the same room when you turn on and wait for the delay to switch on your class-D amp/s. I would say if you get no reaction you’ll have the "set too low filter" and you have a Class-D that is not hard or bright at all, but I bet it’s number 2: of the above. If they run out of the room or react you know it’s the high filter number 1: above.
From Texas Instruments on output filters of Class-D amps that are set too high corner frequency. "A concern with the switching waveform being dissipated in the speaker is that it may cause damage to the speaker" This is what happened to my mates Wilson 8’s above, as Wilson does not use a Zoble Filters on this tweeter and I think all their speakers.
Hello George You seem to know a lot about technical issues about class D Amps (I dont), but in my case I dont feel any of the problems you have mentioned above, if I understand you correctly.
When I listen to music at low levels at night (everybody is sleeping), I dont feel the mids or the highs rolled off or not involving at all. In fact, as the AC Power is cleaner and the ambience noise is lower, I experiment the best of the music as it gets much more involving, smoother, with more dynamics, detail, better tone and with an incredible soundstage.
Also, when I listen loud (I try not to do it often for my earing safety), I dont feel the sound harsh.
On the other hand, I've listened to multi thousand dollars systems (+120k), much more expensive than mine, and I've found them harsher and with more digital flavour than mine. And those systems had class A or A/B amps.
In fact, I've had class A valve amps that didnt sound as smooth and grainless as my class D amp, at all.
I dont want to start an endless and pointless discussion, but my experience doesnt follow your theory. I guess there must be exceptions.
My amp is a Nord Acoustics NC500DM with Rev D boards and Sparkos Op Amps. My preamp is the Audio-gd Master 1 and my DAC is the Audio-gd R8. I feed the DAC with the SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo going through the Gustard U16 USB to I2S converter. My speakers are the Q Acoustics Concept 500 floorstanders.
georgehifi: "What I hear from that technology, is dependent on where the "output filter is set" to filter out the switching noise.
1:Too high and it lets through too much switching noise but with reduced phase shift into the audio band, this to me sound hard and bright on music.
2:Too low and it roll off the highs and causes too much phase shift into the audio band, but it filters out more of the switching frequency, this to me sound soft and opaque in the highs, and not involving in the mids, but at least it’s not hard."
Wow George, you finally responded to how your theorized and supposed class D deficiencies are manifested audibly. I’ve been requesting this info from you for what seems like years with no responses. What gives?
I understand your position is not to utilize a class D amp until you deem it to be technically perfect and that’s your choice. However, to me and I believe to the majority of other class D amp adopters, making the perfect the enemy of the extremely good makes little sense. I’ll use logic to explain my perspective. Even if your theories about the deficiencies of most current class D amps are correct, that the current carrier switching frequency needs to be raised to the 1.5mHz range and the current output filters removing the carrier frequency are inadequate, they are meaningless to all individuals that do not perceive your claimed audible effects of the music sounding hard, bright, soft and opaque in the highs and not involving in the mids. Since I perceive none of these effects in my system using numerous class D amps, by your own definition your claimed class D deficiencies don’t exist in my system. I believe this is also true for all individuals who do not hear the audible qualities you detail in your above descriptions labelled as 1 and 2. Our combination of perceptions represent all of our realities. However, I'm still willing to keep an open mind and will listen to any class D amp you deem to be perfected in the future just in case your claims are actually valid and I can perceive the audible results.
I owned Nord NC500 Hypex class D monoblocks for 6 months or so this year. I found them to be very quiet and detailed, and fairly smooth sounding once they broke in (which seemed to take forever - easily several months). But ultimately, I was dissatisfied with them.
I'm having a hard time putting my finger on what the problems were, but I just didn't feel the emotional connection with the music that I do with the right amp. I replaced them with a Parasound JC5, which I'm much happier with (the JC5 is admittedly twice the price).
Since I perceive none of these effects in my system using numerous class D amps, by your own definition your claimed class D deficiencies don’t exist in my system.
Good on you, your one of the few that do, for every one that does, there's two that don't
However, I'm still willing to keep an open mind and will listen to any class D amp you deem to be perfected in the future just in case your claims are actually valid and I can perceive the audible results.
Good way to hedge your bets. That way you won't end up with egg on your face when you do.
noble100clearthink,Anyone stating class D is "noisy as hell" very obviously doesn’t know what the heck they’re talking about. It’s simply not scientifically or anecdotally true. It’s not my opinion that class D is quiet as hell, it is a scientific fact. I stand by my statement that anyone claiming class D is "noisy as hell" has either never auditioned it or purposefully lying."
I have never asserted or claimed that Class "D" is "noisy as hell" so you must be quoting some one else but I do understand that you believe your opinion is not an opinion at all but a "a scientific fact" supported by actual science which certainly lends an air of authority and righteousness to your beliefs that you embrace and insist others accept as a Literal Truth. It might amaze you to know that there are those here who will disagree with you and yet they are not lying but actually are expressing their own, individual, personal opinion that has as much value, validity, and authority as you're "opinion" which you assert as an indisputable, unquestionable, verifiable "fact."
Anyone stating class D is "noisy as hell" very obviously doesn’t know what the heck they’re talking about.
Why did twoleftears dog run out of the room when it was turned on??
Go near one with a portable am radio tuned off station around 600khz (or whatever your switching frequency is) and see what you get out of the radio.
If you look at their output on a oscilloscope they are more than just noisy as heck! And that (undetectable to human) noise goes through to the tweeter if it’s not Zobel’ed as many hi-end ones aren’t
Take the output filter off the output and they are an abomination of noise that the military could almost use as a mind altering stun weapon.
Over the decades I have owned tube, SS (Class A, AB): I have also owned 2 different older generation W4S amps, Emerald Physics 100.2SE monos, Audio Alchemy DPA-1 (UcD), and PS Audio M700 monos prior to the EVS 1200; it’s an entirely different sonic experience from what the naysayers pontificate
The Audio Alchemy DPA-1 or DPA-1 monos (see TAS March 2016 glowing review) could well be the ticket for you, and are typically available at > 50% discount on the used market
@niodariI, I would avoid the Red Dragon S500 as it’s spec sheet suggests 2.7 ohms minimum. This is the same as the Icepower 1200AS1 or 1200AS2.
I think anyone using speakers that have an impedance below an amplifiers minimum rating will risk clipping the amp, and I don’t think you’d want that (under 3 ohms through MOST of the range).
"The CS3.6's impedance magnitude and phase plot (fig.1) reveals a very low impedance value. The loudspeaker is under 3 ohms through most of the range, dropping to a minimum of 2.3 ohms at 3.6kHz (the cursor position). The low impedance value explains the CS3.6's need for the iron-fisted Mark Levinson No.23.5 to provide control in the bass; the CS3.6 would appear to be current-hungry".
Go near one with a portable am radio tuned off station around 600khz (or
whatever your switching frequency is) and see what you get out of the
radio.
If you look at their output on a oscilloscope they are
more than just noisy as heck! And that (undetectable to human) noise
goes through to the tweeter if it’s not Zobel’ed as many hi-end ones
aren’t
From Texas Instruments on output filters of Class-D amps that are set too high corner frequency. "A concern with the switching waveform being dissipated in the speaker is that it may cause damage to the speaker" This
is what happened to my mates Wilson 8’s above, as Wilson does not use a
Zoble Filters on this tweeter and I think all their speakers.
This statement is false. There are no class D amps that run without filters- such an amp is theoretically possible, relying on the inductance of the load to sort things out, but so far even with GaNFETs the switching frequencies are far too low.
More likely the reason for the tweeter failure (if even real) was that the amp used with the speaker was overloaded. That's a classic source of tweeter failure!
Read again from Texas Instruments, far more authoritative than you Ralph, and this is still with the output filter in place, but with it set too high, without it and you have a tweeter meltdown.
From Texas Instruments: On output filters of Class-D amps that are set too high corner frequency. "A concern with the switching waveform being dissipated in the speaker is that it may cause damage to the speaker"
This is what happened to my mates Wilson 8’s above, as Wilson does not use a Zoble Filters on it’s tweeter and I on any of their speakers tweeters.
I run a BEl Canto C5i true-digital Class D integrated amp in a smaller system that would seem to fit your bill. Detail and resolution is top notch and never fatiguing. "Smoothest" sounding amp I have ever owned by far. Only 60 w/ch 8 ohm, enough to deliver the goods, but probably not concert level SPLs.
I would expect other newer higher power Bel Canto class D amps would work similarly.
I also have older Bel Canto ref1000m amps (500w/ch 8 ohm) that could fit the bill in my main system. Not quite as smooth as the C5i perhaps with some speakers, but similar and still a major improvement over any other amp I had used prior.
If ever in Baltimore /DC metro area, would be happy to provide a listen if desired.
Read again from Texas Instruments, far more authoritative than you
Ralph, and this is still with the output filter in place, but with it
set too high, without it and you have a tweeter meltdown.
From Texas Instruments: On output filters of Class-D amps that are set too high corner frequency. "A concern with the switching waveform being dissipated in the speaker is that it may cause damage to the speaker"
This
is what happened to my mates Wilson 8’s above, as Wilson does not use a
Zoble Filters on it’s tweeter and I on any of their speakers tweeters.
Oh, sure- that is indeed a concern for the *designer*. Not the finished product! Your friend's speaker was not damaged by the residual of a class D amp; that idea is ridiculous. If indeed the anecdote is real and this isn't a made up story then the tweeter was damaged by an amplifier being driven into overload. That is the most common way tweeters are damaged.
FWIW I’ve run a bunch of Class D amps over the last several years all the time and no tweeter meltdowns. In fact 0 issues and they even tend to be the quietest amps ever. Never a sound other than what’s playing. I even leave them on most of the time as recommended.
FWIW I’ve run a bunch of Class D amps over the last several years all the time and no tweeter meltdowns.
I didn't say it happens with all, just one version of those Class-D's that I've seen. And when as Texas Instruments say, when the output filter is set too high to get more bandwidth from the amp. Like some one said here they have one that goes to 1mhz in bandwidth!! this one will certainly over time cook or quickly the tweeters voice coils.
I even leave them on most of the time as recommended.
I don't think this is a good practice, as you don't know or hear how much switching noise is being let through to the tweeters, if a bit, it can slowly temper and blue the voice coils, as what happened to my friends Wilson tweeters, they still worked, he was just complaining that his highs had deteriorated, and yes those well known expensive Class-D's were left on 24/7 for over 1 year on his speakers.
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