nitrobob,
I can’t speak from personal audition, but will just summarize what tweak1 heard and posted. His EVS 1200 is not warm, but detailed and neutral. It is a tweaked version of the IceEdge. The Legacy is likely to sound neutral, although degrees of warmth are up for debate. Since the ATI 6005 is reportedly neutral, let us know how the tonal character of the Legacy compares to the ATI. Tweak1 had the Audio Alchemy DPA1, which was warm compared to the EVS 1200. He was considering the DPA2, a more powerful version.
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I am extra happy with my EVS 1200; dual mono IcePower 600 modules plus lots of intelligent tweaks from Ric Schultz TweakAudio
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I use a Lyngdorf SDA2175 class D amplifier which, coupled with a PrimaLuna Prologue 3 preamp, pilot of the Scansonic MB2.5B. The result is excellent
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I'm hoping it has warmth. I'm not a bright fan of any sort. I've been told the ATI's were a little on the bright side. Some say neutral. I don't want to go backwards on my taste.Fingers crossed . |
You may not be disappointing. The design is nice.
Take into account that Class D wattage is not the same, you may have about the same power as with your ATI (tube 50 watts \approx class ab
100 watts \approx class D 200 watts). |
I just ordered the newly released Legacy I*V 5 Amplifier yesterday. It's what they have been working on for seven years with this "Ice" technology. There're sold out, as the first batch sold faster than they thought. Shipment is mid February.I am replacing my 300 watt ATI 6005 Signature series. Kind of glad to get rid of that 140 lb monster. I had to move it twice, I was learning to hate it. I have all Legacy, Focus Se’s, Marquis Center, Phantom Surrounds, and I wanted to try this 600 watt unit and see. Hope I didn’t make a mistake. But, you don’t know if you don’t try , right? |
I had the PS Audio preamp and M 700s. The amps were far superior to the pre, which lacked umph and color, which should be remedied with a beefy outboard PS, like Audio Alchemy's PS 5 did when I added it to my DDP-1
I replaced them with Ric Schultz EVS 1200 (dual mono), which sounds fantastic, but is a large chassis component
I owned a Audio Alchemy DPA-1, stereo amp, which is quite small and may well be what you’re looking for sound-wise, Probably can be bought for < $900
I never heard NuForce, but they appear to be much smaller chassis
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Hi All, I'll need to spend a bit of time digesting all your posts but thanks a lot for the insightful replies!
To be clear indeed I was talking about two S500 stereo amplifiers and not the monoblocks. It is also not so much a seller trying to push these on me, but me trying to buy something second hand. The seller itself cannot even part with them yet as he himself is also sourcing for some new parts first, so there luckily is no haste involved on that front! Sadly the person lives a country away and Red Dragon is not really present here in Europe it seems so demoing is not an option (Which I understand is a risk).
Tim, thanks for your detailed reply! Regarding my room. It is a living room with an open kitchen. 7.5x5.5m with one side of the 7.5M being all windowed. Floors are tiles so there are a lot of hard surfaces. As this is the living room, conditioning the room is out of the question, so I am thinking of trying to solve this with room correction such as Diriac (I am afraid that these words in combination with Class-D will only anger some people even more :-) ) In my circle of friends I only have one person who is a music fanatic and indeed I am planning to spend some time listening to his setup. I also have an appointment with our local hifi shop soon.
The AVR was bought at some point as I was connecting a lot of things to my TV but in reality I just have (and only want) 2.0 or 2.1 depending whether my next set of speakers will be monitors or not. I am a big movie buff but I do not care for surround sound at all and rarely watch action-y movies where this plays a big role. Between audio/video lately we've gone to 65/35 split audio/video I would say. Music wise I am still refining my tastes but I listen to a lot of (prog-) rock and some jazz. Classical would really be every once in a blue moon and then there's a plethora of other genres we listen to every once in a while (from salsa to hiphop).
Regarding to what exactly I want to improve: I cannot call myself an audiophile yet at all, but if I would describe what I find lacking it's that the sound does not really seem to envelop you. I can put my set louder but it does not have *presence* in my room I guess, it will just be more sound. I have difficulty expressing whether I find my set sounding cold or warm, alive or not as I think I lack the experience to compare it with anything else.
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Heard mnay even at demo shops, not my thing, the sound is flat and monotone.
sorry u disagree! |
With the same success, you may demo two class ab amps. How many class d amps exist? You cannot judge just based on this experience. You will have more distortion on most class a b amps, can a distortion give you a live sound? |
Demo’d Two class d amps, not my thing, flat lifeless, sounded like it was playing music, with no emotion, or excitement.
Your results may vary, this is just my opinion.
Smaller, lighter, easier to move, etc etc.
A, OR A/AB Still sounds better to. My ears.
No ragging, this is just my ears, yours maybe different.
even my class H sunfire blows away class d.
demoed the devialet, it was a 400+W one, had for 12 days, left on for several days to warm up, nope, not my thing.
also the thor, or Loki, or whichever those were, those were promising, but I had to return them and have my card credited after 10 days.
i prefer my class H Sunfire. |
bolduque , in addition to the useful and valuable
notes by Tim and George, i would still suggest you to try a class D amp. You may spent less money for the sound quality you will get, will save space and energy. There are very good sounding class D amps, and i am now convinced that some of them give a very neutral uncolored sound (one example is a Cherry Megaschino amp that i am using already for about a month or so -- i can hardly imagine an amplifier that would have a more neutral and clean (and perhaps also detailed) sound, the rest is the thing of a taste, and you can "colour" your sound with an appropriate preamplifier depending on your taste).
Red Dragon, monoblocks, if they are new model (released this year) then $2K could be a good deal, otherwise not. Bear in mind that Reg Dragon is not good for low impedance speakers (if your speaker are 8 ohms then it would be fine). |
"When you say you’ve found a nice deal on 2 S500 monoblocks for $2k, I hope that’s new, as when in stock they are only $799 each new!" https://www.reddragonaudio.com/collections/amplifiers/products/m500-mkii?variant=248192058
Hello bolduque, Georgehifi is correct, the Red Dragon 500 monoblocks were discontinued about a year ago and the price was reduced to $799 each, while supplies lasted. The supplies only lasted a few months on both the silver and the black color options of these monoblock models because they're high quality amps that received very good reviews that were offered at an extreme bargain price. I had even attempted to buy a pair of these amps as soon as I heard of the clearance price reduction but they were already sold out of both black and silver models. Here's a copy of the Positive Feedback review that inspired me to try a pair of Red Dragon S500 monos:
https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/red-dragon-audio-m500-and-m1000-mkii-amplifiers-2/
I called Red Dragon at the time and sent an email to them a couple of times requesting a back order and any upcoming new models. Here is their response:
"Ryan Tew Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 3:17 PM
Hi Tim We are working on an entirely new MkIII generation and hope to have them ready later this year. Thanks, Ryan Tew President - Red Dragon Audio www.RedDragRyan Tew <ryan@reddragonaudio.com>Tue, Oct 8, 2019, 6:36 PMto meHi Timothy,
We are working on a redesign of the chassis and at the same time we're pushing a new product lineup (and a MkIII version of the S500 and M1000).
Look for us to be ready in 2020Q1 Thanks,
Ryan Tew
President - Red Dragon Audio"
Well, it's already the 1st quarter of 2020 so it seems like Red Dragon's new MKIII version debut of their amp lineup should hopefully be introduced and available very soon.
You asked on your first post about the differences between the various class D power modules: ICE Power, Hypex and Pascal. The truth is there's more to the overall sound of any class D amp than just the power module used. In general, all these class D amp modules have such low distortion and background noise levels, are so accurate, neutral and detailed that even small variances in their associated components and design can result in variances in performance; things such as custom input boards, the switching transistors employed, the switching carrier frequency filters and perhaps even the specific carrier switching frequency utilized.
As I believe you know, utilizing separates rather than your current AVR requires not only a separate stereo amp or monoblock amps, it also requires a separate preamp for connecting and switching between the sources used (turntable, CD, dac/streamer, etc.). Class D amps are in general so neutral that the sound quality of the preamp will be a critical factor in your system's overall sound. I still believe the speakers are the predominate factor in overall system sound but, if class D amps are in the audio chain, the preamp becomes the 2nd most critical factor in a system's overall sound quality.
Later,
Tim |
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BTW the M500 monoblocks if real monoblocks, will sound better than a pair of "bridged stereo S500’s" even though the S500’s will have more watts.
Cheers George |
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Tim does not have to write a book. That last post was the perfect summary and best advise anyone could give. Take your time to absorb as much info until the answer comes to you. Someone else giving you the answer is usually their answer. Have fun ... after all, it is shopping.
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Hello bolduque,
It seems you’re at the stage that I, and likely almost every Audiogon member, was at in the early point in their interest in the home audio hobby. You’ve built a decent system that you enjoy and are interested in exploring how you can make your listening experiences even more enjoyable.
Welcome to the hobby that, from my experience as a now 61 year old still very interested in home audio and video, will likely become a lifelong pursuit and journey for yourself. My main advice to you is to educate yourself and broaden your listening experience. This involves reading beginner’s guides to home audio, joining multiple audio forums (joining this one is already a very good start) and listening to as many audio systems as you can at friends, relatives and audio stores to find out what’s possible, the costs and what you like. There’s a lot to learn and listen to. I think an important skill to develop is restraint and resisting the urge to buy too soon which almost all salespersons will be constantly urging you to do. I suggest you take your time, save your money, learn as much as you can and take notes.
It’s really a balancing act since you’re only going to improve your system by buying stuff but you want to make sure it’s the right stuff for you. When I was just starting out, I recall setting a general budget and planning out your system improvement steps.
I could probably write a book on this subject but don’t really want to do it right now on this post. So, I think your inclination of progressing from an AVR to separate components is a good first step but I’d like to learn more about how you use your current system (audio only or audio and video?), the types of music you listen to (rock, classical, jazz or other? and at what volume level?)what you like and don’t like about your system, your current room details and what you’d like to improve. If you let me know this, I can better assist you.
Later,
Tim
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Hi George,
Having read through all pages I more than understand your viewpoint on A/B’s. The issue for me is mostly that I am living in an apartment and have a space issue, so for now a Class-D will give me good amplification in a form-factor that will match my current situation. As soon as I have a dedicated room to listen to my audio to I will be looking at other options!
Regardless, thanks for your reply, I’ll look into it!
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Hi there,
I am a newbie to the audiophile world and am looking to make a step up from my current setup which is a Monitor Audio Bronze BR2 + KEF TDM 45B + Denon 1910 AVR (all entry level except for the KEF). I’ve found a nice deal online for two Red Dragon S500 Monoblocks for $2K and I am just about ready to jump the trigger. To those who’ve actually used class D amplifiers (as I really cannot participate in the class A/AB vs D discussion) do you know if there is a great difference between the pascal amplifiers vs ICEpower vs HYPEX ? The speakers will of course also be upgrades soon.
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It looks interesting. Hpa 9 has also two levels of gain, i always prefer low gain.
Keep us posted on your impressions on amg pre. |
Thanks....I hope it works out for you ultimately....that would be the easiest solution for you!
I am very curious about the Nuprime AMG preamp recently released.
It has adjustable gain and a sophisticated bass management system.
I wonder how it would match up with the PS Audio S300. I'm tempted to get hold of one to try.
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It should have already about 150 hours (almost enogh). It did get better, after all it's not that bad. Dac is not excellent but perhaps aceptable for some settings and pre has i think 8 inputs. It does not get hot (even warm) and consums only 20 watts. I do not peceive a lot of distortion in sound.
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So, Niodari, you still have, and are breaking-in the PS Audio Gain Cell DAC/Pre? How many hours do you have on it so far?
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Hpa 9 as preamp with Stellar s 300 with a quite good outcome. Gain cell is not as good but still is getting better with more hours. |
I also used Neprime headphone amp |
@niodari I'm using my headphone amplifier as my preamp, the Burson Conductor V2+. Digital to analog conversion is taking place elsewhere in a separate DAC (I don't use the DAC inside the Burson). |
It's not a speaker issue, but it was the gain cell preamp. I bought first Stellar and then after a few months the pre. Before that i used Stellar 300 with a Mcintosh pre. After some hours of break in gain cell sounds better though its not perhaps an ideal pre for Stellar. What pream are you using?
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I have the Stellar S300 and it is, without a doubt, NOT bright in my system.
Maybe look Kat your speakers???
IDK. |
I wish you all to enjoy the sound that you get from your current audio gear, and further, to be able to improve it according to your needs and taste. Perhaps, there is no absolute audio reproduction that is equally good for all. Besides, sometimes a good or bad quality recording makes much more difference than thousands of dollars spent on the upgrades and "improvement". Everything in this life is relative (as Einstein has
taught). On an ideal recording reproduced on an ideal equipment you may get what you want, but it is difficult to have permanently both of them...
Happy New Year! |
That went nowhere for me.🤷♂️
Would have been nice to know what each amp sounded like driving both speakers, oh well, thanks I guess.🤷♂️
Cheers George
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@georgehifi Ok I'll bite, which do you prefer the "sound of" forget everything else? Hi George, Context allows us to appreciate each system on its own merit. Let me put it this way: it is like comparing reference-grade analogue playback to reference-grade digital playback. You stop worrying about sound quality and focus on the music, right? I am at this point already (within my budget constraints of course). For the sake of the argument, the AB stereo amp has been driving a pair of Martin Logan speakers for six years, and the D mono blocks have been driving a pair of Dynaudio contours for more than a year. Both setups reproduce music that engages me, my family and my visitors. No defects, no failures. What else could I ask for? Wish you all happy listening :) |
@noble100 Hi Tim, Thank you. Very well said indeed! I've become a big fan of class D amps through research and personal experience gained by using several examples in my own system. But I believe all amp types have their pros, cons, compromises and limitations and that class D amps are not the best choice for everyone.
I believe it's very important to match the amp(s) used to one's speakers while also considering one's personal preferences and tastes. I understand the truth is that all amp types are capable of providing excellent sound quality and performance results when properly matched to one's speakers but that all amp types are not suitable for all speaker types.
I also know that, once an individual discovers a good match between amp(s) and their speakers that performs well and they enjoy the sound quality of or even numerous combinations, I have absolutely no interest or concern in dissuading them from utilizing that combination or combinations.
It's about time to start enjoying music! Happy New Year |
I was thinking more of snubbers for diodes (transformers), but realistically any circuit with reactive elements. The output impedance of the amplifier is part of the overall electrical circuit and hence the total electro-mechanical assembly and hence impacts ringing/resonance. I guess I made my point poorly ;-)
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Can you read your full last paragraph? Yes- in rereading it, it makes sense to me... However overly low impedance can accentuate ringing. I get the impression you would be familiar with snubber circuits? It is similar to a resistor in series with the capacitor. The resistance is needed to damp ringing. Usually those snubbers you see in amps are for the amp’s benefit, not that of the loudspeaker. But keep in mind almost any amplifier will provide damping to almost any loudspeaker. But the simple fact remains that there is no signal in audio where the ability to stop on a dime is important. As I just pointed out, once the woofer nears the zero crossing point it will want to keep going for a bit, but once it gets to the zero crossing point whatever signal that allowed it to get there will also be calling on it to continue in the same direction past the zero crossing point. There never is a point where the woofer stops unless the amp is shut off. So the two points of stopping are: *a DC pulse, or * the amp being turned off In either event no audiophile listens to either so its moot :) |
Can you read your full last paragraph? I think the wording in your last two sentences contradicts though I know what you mean. I agree this is an issue. I also agree that the audio signal never stops, but decays within bandwidth limits. However overly low impedance can accentuate ringing. I get the impression you would be familiar with snubber circuits? It is similar to a resistor in series with the capacitor. The resistance is needed to damp ringing.
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In theory the "signal" stops and starts as recorded so that is accurate.
The problem is the woofer does not stop right away. In a lower damping
factor amp the output resistance will help dissipate the energy in the
woofer which can give it a more controlled stop. This is of course the theory but in practice (IOW the real world) is not a thing. The woofer never 'stops'; its always in motion; there is no recording where the woofer 'stops'. The only way for it to 'stop' as often described abover is if a DC pulse is being reproduced, which is something that neither the amp or speaker will ever have to do. On this account I've often viewed this as a red herring. More to the point, the idea is that the woofer will continue to oscillate after the initial pulse. But in reality after the woofer moves the first way, the audio signal directs it in the opposite way; it never gets the signal removed and so can't ring. This is why amps with a low damping factor can do quite well in the bass. The real problem isn't ringing or distortion, but getting too much bass if the amp fails to reduce power into impedance peaks of the woofer's impedance curve. This isn't a control issue (which is also a problematic idea), its simply that an amp with insufficient low impedance will simply make too much power. |
This is a public forum. I will respond to the content of your posts if I please. That is how public forums work. You didn't start this thread. Lose the attitude.
An amplifier with a high damping factor may limit the total error energy in the woofer cone movement, which could be one measurement of "better", but there is no guarantee that will sound better, because the energy may be concentrated over a narrow frequency range (ringing) that is audible, compared to what happens with an amplifier with a lower damping factor. This is not a new concept, and is explored in the item linked by Nelson Pass, and has been discussed on/off since the 70's.
This is much different from a servo controlled woofer movement where the actual physical position is directly controlled, not an indirect via the coil wires (and through the cross-over).
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Servo controlled woofer is much different from a low output impedance amplifier I didn’t say it was the same, I said it controls even better the cone movement than the amps damping factor alone can. I’ve asked you three times now, go away please, and stop stalking my posts. |
Servo controlled woofer is much different from a low output impedance amplifier connected to a woofer that will keep moving after the amplifier signal goes to 0. A servo controlled woofer can be designed to smoothly stop a woofer without any ringing if so desired.
"Damped" and damping factor are of course not the same thing. Damping factor is a simple output impedance / 8 Ohm calc. "Damped" refers to how or the characteristic of how a system will respond to a step response.
Speakers are designed to be driven typically by constant voltage sources. Dynamic drivers on the other hand can behave better, i.e. lower distortion with constant current sources. To that end, all speakers are the product of trade-offs, and designing for 0 output impedance forces other trade offs a particular designer may not want to make. The amplifier is part of the circuit that governs how the speaker will behave. We can talk about a "perfect" world, but dynamic drivers are already imperfect. So better to discuss which imperfections you want to live with.
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IMO it is possible to overdamp loudspeakers and thus truncate the bass notes
This statement gives a wrong impression for amplifiers output impedance. That should really be. There are a small minority of speakers that are "overdamped" by bad design or being purposely overdamped designed, and it's the speaker manufacturer problem to get the "Q" correct. Not because the amp is over-damped or underdamped. And amps are also supposed to measure as flat as possible regardless of load impedance they see. From the Speaker design bible
.707 is said to be the correct "Q" with respect to damping. A higher Q indicates a woofer that is underdamped (loose) while a number lower than .707 indicates an overly damped woofer.
There is no such thing as too low for an amps output impedance. They even build speakers with "driver servo control circuits" to control the bass driver excursions even more and faster than the amps can do. A classic example of trying to corner the amp/speaker market was the Linn/Naim scam of the 80's when a "purposely overdamped speaker" was mated with a "purposely under damped amp", when together they were a match and sounded good. When either were substituted for something else and there was either, no bass because of being too tight, or too much soft woolly bass. When a Krell was substituted for the amp, there was very little bass, (what!!! a Krell with no bass!!) that raised the eyebrows. Needless to say this idea was Linn/Naim was exposed eventually and they did stopped doing it probably through fear of being called cheats, great marketing idea though if you have no conscience. Cheers George |
Tim,
In theory the "signal" stops and starts as recorded so that is accurate. The problem is the woofer does not stop right away. In a lower damping factor amp the output resistance will help dissipate the energy in the woofer which can give it a more controlled stop. With a high damping factor all the energy is dissipated in the woofer / crossover. That makes for a different sound.
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audiozenology:"
It's a complex interaction of mechanical resonance, electrical resonance, and mechanical and electrical damping which occurs when you try to stop a woofer faster than it is physically capable of."
Hello audiozenology,
I believe a thorough comprehension of how excessively high damping factors effect bass sound quality requires less concentration on how complex the interaction of forces are and more on the fact that an amp with high damping factors results in it having very firm control over the starting and stopping of a woofer in a conventional dynamic speaker and the bass diaphragm section of a planar-magnetic or electrostatic panel speaker.
The critical part is to have a thorough understanding that it's the amp's firm control over the bass transducers that can cause truncated bass tone decays and that a thorough understanding of the exact complex interactions involved are less important.
Tim
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Thanks for the post Erik, I had not seen that NP article. There were some good papers in the 70s on current source amps.
I agree with Atmosphere, you can overdamp some speakers. I am not sure I totally agree with your and his explanation wrt how bass notes behave or wrt what is natural, but agree there is an effect and it may not be pleasant.
It's a complex interaction of mechanical resonance, electrical resonance, and mechanical and electrical damping which occurs when you try to stop a woofer faster than it is physically capable of. |
Hello serhan62,
I've become a big fan of class D amps through research and personal experience gained by using several examples in my own system. But I believe all amp types have their pros, cons, compromises and limitations and that class D amps are not the best choice for everyone.
I believe it's very important to match the amp(s) used to one's speakers while also considering one's personal preferences and tastes. I understand the truth is that all amp types are capable of providing excellent sound quality and performance results when properly matched to one's speakers but that all amp types are not suitable for all speaker types.
I also know that, once an individual discovers a good match between amp(s) and their speakers that performs well and they enjoy the sound quality of or even numerous combinations, I have absolutely no interest or concern in dissuading them from utilizing that combination or combinations.
Tim |
I currently have two listening spaces, one with an AB amp, the other with D monoblocs. The D monoblocs sound great.
Ok I'll bite, which do you prefer the "sound of" forget everything else? Cheers George |
Merry Christmas and Happy new Year to all.
@noble100
@georgehifi
When listening to a system, a person can decide whether this is their sound or not. A year ago, I auditioned the top Devialet amp, and thought "this is not my sound" I had a similar feeling with McIntosh Labs setup 25 years ago. This never means they are bad products, but they are not for me. In the domain of hi-fi, each person has their sound as much as they have their music. Even in theatres, we have a preference for certain seats over others. Our ears are the judge and though we casually ask friends and family for their views, the ultimate decisions remains one's own ears.
Also, a system sounds as good as its weakest component. So, this is why reviewers list associated equipment including cables in order to contextualise their verdict on the item being reviewed.
In my time, I owned tubes, hybrids, pure class A, AB, and D. For power amplification, I currently have two listening spaces, one with an AB amp, the other with D monoblocs. The D monoblocs sound great. There is no noise, no distortion, and I do not have to keep them on 24/7.
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My theory is that the very high damping factors unique to class D amps was truncating the decay times of the bass notes. IMO it is possible to overdamp loudspeakers and thus truncate the bass notes, ending up with a coloration called 'tight bass'. In this regard, amps have outstripped loudspeakers in terms of advancing the art. What I mean by this is for an amplifier to be a true voltage source, it has to have a very low output impedance, and while most speakers (certainly not all!) are meant to be driven by a voltage source amplifier, the simple fact is that they also should not be overdamped, and most high powered solid state amps do just that. No speaker made needs more than about 20:1 as a damping factor. But we see amps that have 500:1 and more- there is no way these amps can avoid coloring the bass as a result. IOW I agree with your observations. |
