Tidal FLAC vs. Qobuz

Easy choice here.  I don't like music made by anything that plugs into the wall, want to understand the lyrics, and I don't jump up and down while listening.

Also MQA is now a proven to be lossy and noisy process.  The Provence of some music has been shown to be questionable at Tidal.  Qobuz also sounds better to my ear.

I use Aurender a15 (4 conductor)

I'm not sure which application you are using @zokniai , but with Roon or my phone I often get Tidal to give me 44.1/16.  I suspect it's your settings.

Das anyone know why "Tidal" streaming 320 kbps but not CD audio quality?I Use both Tidal and Qobuz, same music tidal 320kbps - Qobuz Flac 16bit/44.1? Thank you.

@mojo771 

Once you find a DAC you really like, upgrade to a better streamer like any of the offerings from Aurender or Innuos. As I mentioned in my first post, I used to own Vault and then upgraded to Aurender ACS100 (I cannot live without a ripper as I still buy CD’s). It’s 1000 times better than vault in terms of library management, app interface and can be used as a dedicated streamer. Or look for used ACS 10 for about $3K. You can thank me later :-) 

Guys will spend $50K+ on their rigs and then can’t see paying $300 a year fo have BOTH Qobuz & Tidal - it’s crazy. I switch between both services depending on what I want to listen to - seems simple, yes?

@bipod72  

This is where I got annoyed at both Bluesound and Tidal.  They are very careful with their wording on this issue.  I had to email them both multiple times to get a straight answer.  They seem to be intentionally misleading.  

Tidal is "integrated" into the BluOS.  So you can stream mqa from tida; usiing only the BS Vault.  And Tidal has flac thru Tidal Connect on the Tidal Connect app, that you can stream through the Vault - wirelessly.  But you cannot access flac direct from tidal thru the Vault. 

My BluOS app was just updated after an update prompt, and the Tidal Connect app was just released. 

So now, I subscribe to both Tidal and Qobuz.  I stream Qobuz hi res flac direct thru the Vault, and when they don't have a flac option available I stream mqa from Tidal.  I see no reason to use the Tidal Connect, unless / until they "integrate" into the BluOS as they do with mqa Tidal 

@mojo771 I forgot you're the OP so apologies. I had to go back and reread. Tidal Connect is high rez but regular Tidal isn't, you're correct. The Bluesound website says its BluOS supports Tidal Connect which I take that you should be able to use Tidal Connect with your Bluesound. Do you have to manually update the firmware on the Bluesound or is it automatic via the BlueOS app? 

Except Spotify / Tidal are not hi res.  Only Qobuz is high res flac.  Qobuz also has many cd quality options that are not hi res flac. Tidal is mqa, which many say is not really hi res, Which is why they went to flac (on some recordings) but only thru Tidal Connect app.  And Tidal says you cannot get hi res flac unless you go to their Tidal Connect App which is not available on the Bluesound, so only mqa.    

@mojo771 I get high-res because my CXN is directly connected to the internet via ethernet. My phone is merely the control just like you but I control via my wi-fi connection. I"m not transmitting the stream from my phone.

"But to get hi-res flac from Tidal you have to use the Tidal Connect app on your phone, but can only play over a 2 channel amp / tower speakers by using wireless hifi."

This isn’t necessarily true. If the Vault is connected to the internet via ethernet and the Vault is a direct input on your system, then the app on your phone is still just a wi-fi controller. Tidal Connect streams do not travel through the smartphone or tablet on their way to the paired network streamer.

I’m not sure if the OP’s Vault is directly connected to the net via ethernet or not. If the OP Is connecting the Vault via Wi-Fi, then yes high-res is compromised.

@bipod72 Yes, but you're not getting the highest audio resolution.  Qobuz has h res flac, and the Tidal Connect app does, but not regular Tidal.  

I can stream Tidal and Qobuz direct to my Bluesound and the phone is merely a remote.  But to get hi-res flac from Tidal you have to use the Tidal Connect app on your phone, but can only play over a 2 channel amp / tower speakers by using wireless hifi.  Wireless defeats the purpose of Tidal Connect and hi res streaming  

If you're utilizing the BlueOs via a phone (apple or android) or tablet to control your Node and the source is Tidal, you aren't using bluetooth if everything is connected to your wi-fi network. The only way you would be using bluetooth is if you're using Apple Airplay or your Vault isn't connected directly to the internet. 

I stream Spotify/Radio Paradise/Tidal on my CXN via the Cambridge StreamMagic app over my wi-fi network. Bluetooth never enters the picture.

I used to be with tidal and loved it with MQA. Tidal also has more of the newer music (jazz, blues, prog rock, hard rock, new age) than Qobuz. But the BB/tidal fiasco sent me over to Qobuz. After converting all of my music over, I have some albums on Qobuz that have multiple tracks that are “unavailable” which can’t be played. The description for this is that the artist put a restriction that these songs could not be streamed thru Qobuz, but I streamed these just fine with tidal. So now I have to purchase these albums. The jury is still out on qobuz

About 4 years ago when trying to decide which music service to go with, I did a comparison of a few songs I am very familiar with using, and this is key, the exact same album on both QoBuz and Tidal.  Both in CD-quality, not Hi-Res.  After closely listening, in my opinion QoBuz sounded a little more realistic and micro-detailed on all the songs than Tidal, so I went with QoBuz. I have not tried Tidal again since, and I have been really satisfied with QoBuz as well as their array of music.  As others have stated, your personal tastes and experience will be the judge of which to use.  Good luck choosing your music source...  

I believe Qobuz pays artists more than Tidal. The majority owner of Tidal is also Block inc which does not deserve my appreciation. That and the rap are reasons to avoid Tidal.  
 

That’s what I’m doing while having the Roon lifetime subscription:

Tidal HiFi (regular) CD Quality at $10.99 for their 100 million tracks.

Qoboz Studio (Hi-Res) at $10.82 for their 424,000 Hi-Res tracks.

vs Tidal Hi-Fi Plus at $19.99 for their 100 million CD quality and 25,000 Hi-Res tracks ($1.83 difference w/out taxes in comparison to above). 

Like some of the previous users here, I’ve found Qoboz falling short on a few of the artists and their tracks I enjoy. Tidal seems to have a much higher success rate, but then again, some of the sub genres I listen to are pretty “eclectic.”

When I was younger making minimum wage I remember spending $16-$20 for a CD album - sometimes three or more per month. $20 now for both Tidal and Qoboz seems like a pretty good deal IMHO. Even if I only make $2 more than minimum wage :)

I too would still be with Tidal if they hadn’t cold-cocked us with dropping the Best Buy annual membership mid year and made us subscribe at twice the monthly price for Hi-Res.  I drop-kicked Tidal’s plan, signed up for a year with Quboz, transferred all my music using third party software that I had to pay for 1 month.  Tidal had much more music I listen to and the sound quality is the same on like file levels. After a cooling off period I may have to sign up for Tidal reg plan just to get access to songs Quboz does not offer.  I have lifetime Roon so integration of the two is excellent.  Grrrrrr!

Why does anybody like blusound??

The interface is hardly helpful and difficult to work with and is not as good as going to the source like tidal or qobuz.

It's just an interface that's poorly designed. Personally I prefer roon.

@mojo771 Tidal connect does not stream wirelessly to the Node.  Tidal connect controls music on the node much like Roon.  It is essentially the same as playing from the Node.

@p05129 I too was angry that Tidal didn’t honor their agreement with Best Buy’s customers and negated those who had already paid for a year’s subscription and forced us to start paying the full monthly price - without offering a discount for a yearly subscription. So far, I’m still with Tidal, but yeah, that definitely rubbed me the wrong way and makes Tidal "expensive" compared to yearly subscriptions of Apple Music and Amazon HD. After jumping through hoops using a 3rd party software (TuneMyMusic, which is not free for large collections, I had to temporarily subscribe to it, do the transfer, then cancel) to transfer all my Spotify albums, tracks, and playlists to Tidal, I guess I’ll stick it out and see how it goes, and if they’ll ever offer a yearly discount again.

One cool thing about TuneMyMusic was that I was also able to download a comma delimited file (.XLS format) of all my music.  That was a definite plus. 

I have a Bluseound Vault too but for the last several years use it as a hardwired backup streaming source to my ARC/Wilson system (when Roon goes down- which it does about once a month for an hour or two) I flip over to the Vault and access Quboz and Tidal. It does a decent job but if you have a nicer system then I suggest a better streamer/DAC - it'll make a big sonic improvement. I default to liking the selections of Quboz - Tidal is still skewed toward explicit lyrics / rap etc but has overall a good mix. Sonically I can't tell them apart by the way. And, with a hardwired system the issue you raise about FLAC is moot. I bougth a Lumin PI for my main streamer/DAC and love it. It also gives access to Spotify, which the PS Audio DirectStream Jr I had previously did not. 

I use Tidal and Spotify. I used Qobuz on a trial that finished yesterday. I didn't renew it. My accompanying system is Blusound Node streamer with a Gato Audio AMP150 AE and Gato Audio FM15 bookshelf speaker.

You can play high res from your Tidal app (iPhone or PC - maybe others too but I don't use Android/MAC) in high res over wi-fi. You don't need to use Bluetooth. If you use BT then you can just use Spotify.

For Qobuz, the selection was okay but the app sucks. You can not play via WiFi from either the PC or the iPhone app. You have to go to the service in Bluesound or any other streamer you use to play it on WiFi- which honestly sucks. The Bluesound app is not as good as the streaming apps.

Tidal Connect does not "stream wirelessly" to a streamer connected to the network with an Ethernet cable. I could be interpreting OP wrong, but it appears OP is under the impression that Tidal Connect works by wirelessly transmitting to the app on the phone/tablet which then wirelessly streams to the streamer. This is incorrect. I apologize if I am misinterpreting OP.

Soundiz is the one that I tried. Doesn't work too well for me either.

Soundiiz can transfer playlists between services, though it didn't work that well for me. There's a fee for large playlists.

Was it Soundiiz?

It’s been a while since I did this. When I signed up for Qobuz, Qobuz asked if I needed to convert from tidal and when I said yes, they gave me access to this program. I’ll see if I can find this program.

@p05129  Can you tell me the program you used to transfer your Tidal library to Qobuz

I converted from tidal to Qobuz earlier this year. I still think MQA sounded better than flax on Qobuz. I also think that tidal has more music that I like: prog rock, jazz, blues, rock, jazz. I used the free program when I went to Qobuz that used my Roon database entries (ripped and tidal) and loaded all the Qobuz songs into Roon that I had in tidal. After this, I received “unavailable” errors next to many Qobuz songs that means the artist restricted these songs in Qobuz, but tidal did t have these restrictions. 1 album with 9 songs had 5 that were “unavailable”. 
If the Best Buy/tidal fiasco wouldn’t have occurred, I would still be with tidal.

The upshot is Tidal seems to be abandoning MQA and moving to FLAC. But for now, much of the catalog is still available in lossy MQA. I have Tidal but none of my DACs support MQA so I’m glad for this development. Also note that MQA has been rebranded by the company that bought them out to another acronym I can’t recall right now. MQA might have had a purpose for about 5 years or so when the Internet was mostly DSL in speeds, but now, with people getting down 100Mbps or more, there’s little reason to use it anymore at all. I don’t "hate" it, but just see it as a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist anymore. Thinking the current licensing scheme adds about $5 to $10 to a DAC, no biggie.

Once Qobuz ever has a "Connect" app and streamers support it, I’ll give it a shot, but for the most part, I’ve been happy with Tidal. Even Deezer would be cool if they too had a connect app to make life easier.

@mojo771 if you are streaming via Bluetooth then really it doesn’t matter what streaming service you use. You’re sending lossy audio to your streamer. That’s a waste of money so might as well cancel your tidal and just use free Spotify or the cheaper Apple Music or Amazon music. 
As to the catalog, I find albums and artists on Tidal that don’t exist in Qobuz.
I listen to rock, jazz and classical. One example is a band I discovered thanks to Roon radio feature…The Stimulators. Only exists on Tidal. They have several tracks that are really good and all of their albums are recorders well. 
There are more examples. However, Qobuz has a larger selection of high res music. If you only care about library selection, I would stick with Tidal. 

I would like to ask, are you more concerned with ease of the application or sound quality? If application is your main concern, then you’re done. No need to have any further discussions. But if sound quality is the main concern, one is going to have to give up some comfort and learn the new system. I remember going from Spotify then to Amazon Music then having box that can let me play Qobuz. It seemed that when I went from each service, the options became less. But the sound quality increased. Just a thought

@mojo771 I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a BluOS update for Tidal FLAC, since Lenbrook now owns MQA.

What's the problem with using Tidal Connect? It has a few more features that are not available on the BluOS app. (Also note that a lot of MQA on Tidal has still not been converted to hi-res FLAC).

Yeah - most likely they are. If you don't want to use two apps for music playback, then I guess you're stuck with MQA rather than pure PCM. Otherwise, there's no reason to panic since the Vault supports TIDAL Connect.

@yage I've been emailing Tidal and Bluesound for days now and it appears the only way to get flac is through the Tidal Connect app and not the Bluesound app that is imbedded in the Vault.    The BluOS integrated in the Vault is limited to mqa.  But maybe they are working on another upgrade.

@mojo771 

After doing some more reading, I think @moonwatcher is most likely correct - the app acts only as a remote control when TIDAL Connect is used. This means that the audio data is sent directly to the Vault over your wired network connection and the app only sends commands to the streamer for playback / volume / etc. This is similar to how Spotify Connect and UPnP / DLNA works. An email to TIDAL support should clear up the technical details.

@eagledriver_22 

The Bluesound Vault has an ethernet port for connecting directly to the router.  But the only way to get the Tidal flac is through the Tida Connect App and not the BluOS app.  Theres no way to directly connect my android phone or pc to the Vault, so it needs to be wireless.  

Hopefully, mspot is correct and Bluesound will correct this and Tidal Connect flac will be integrated into the BluOS like the Tidal mqa is.

In the meantime, I can keep both Qobuz and Tidal.

OP's comment  01-06-2024

'So I can stream wired through the BluOS at mqa quality OR I can use the Tidal connect app to get flac, but only connect wirelessly.'

Why is wirelessly the only option? Thanks for elaborating.

I had both Tidal and Qobuz and for my preference I stayed with Tidal going through Audirvāna for best sound quality. I find Tidal is easy to search and has lots of music that I like in Jazz, blues,vocal jazz,pop,soft rock and etc….

@steakster I was just using Google AI. Thanks for any clarification on this subject. 

I’m using Amazon.  It is only music as far as I can tell and it has I don’t know how many high res albums, but it seems most of what I listen to is high res.  I listen to mostly Jazz and I have never not found an album on Amazon that also wasn’t on Qobuz. I just recently dropped my Qobuz account because I really couldn’t find much of a difference in titles or sound.

All the best.

I can stream wired through the BluOS at mqa quality OR I can use the Tidal connect app to get flac, but only connect wirelessly.  So I thought Tidal had solved the flac issue but if its only wirelessly then I will need to stay with mqa or go to Qobuz on the BluOS app.

@mojo771  You can get hi-res FLAC from Tidal's own desktop apps (Mac/PC) on USB output.

On 3rd party streamers, only a few vendors so far have completed updating their software to support Tidal hi-res FLAC (I know of Linn, Volumio and Lumin). Roon says they are working on it, and no doubt BluOS is in progress as well.

A power conditioner, regulates voltage, reduce noise, and filters out electrical disturbances. it can be electronic or transformer-based. Power conditioners are similar to power strips, but are designed to filter noise and interference. A linear power supply is a power supply circuit that converts electrical energy to provide a stable direct current(dc) output. it consist of a step down, transformer, a rectifier, a filter circuit, and voltage regulator. Linear power supplies our designed for low noise and are often considered quiet. They are used to replace low quality SMPS (switch mode power supply)often the wall wart for your DAC, streamers or whatever equipment that uses one. So both are necessary when one is a trying to achieve good sound. Now mind you that apparently there is some new technology to where the SMPS is just as good as a linear power supply so you have to be aware. But I don’t think we are in that kind of dollars world yet.

@gkelly I admit I bought the Niagara without knowing the diff between the PC and a LPS.  Can you give me a simple explanation between the two?

Ive been emailing Tidal support and Bluesound support for clarification.  It seems like the BluOS app only streams Tidal as high as mqa and the only way to get flac from Tidal is through the Tidal CONNECT app and NOT the BluOS app.  So I can stream wired through the BluOS at mqa quality OR I can use the Tidal connect app to get flac, but only connect wirelessly.  So I thought Tidal had solved the flac issue but if its only wirelessly then I will need to stay with mqa or go to Qobuz on the BluOS app.

A couple of hopefully on target comments.

I upgraded my Node 2i by adding a PD Creative Linear Power Supply board. And then offloading the DAC function to external DAC's. First SMSL SU-9 and then upgrading to a Gustard R26 ladder DAC. All significant improvements in SQ. And the Node is hard wired to the router with an audio quality switch. No Bluetooth or WiFI in the "stream".

To the discussion of App interfaces; BlusOS vs whatever. The best solution is to subscribe and use Roon. It is heads above everything else; for sure Tidal (which I stream) or BlueOS. Yes, it's an additional fee/subscription. But when my Roon Core was done for several weeks I had to rely on the other two apps. So clumsy in comparison.

Once the Core was back up and running (I use both Roon apps on an iPhone and MacBook) I was so happy, grateful. Because it makes accessing your streaming and local library so easy and discovering new music and information about it is so readily available. Roon makes my whole system so available. I listen so much more than I did before. It's an essential tool to any serious audiophile. I think almost as important as the other physical components; streamer, DAC etc. Try the free trial as see for yourself. That's what I did and was immediately hooked!

Again just my personal and humble experience!

Had tidal right when it came out...loved it. Then I started getting error messages regarding multiple users. Tried to debug it. Dumped tidal, went to qobuz. Have not looked back, and that was probably 3 years ago. I have 2k+ CDs ripped to flac. Qobuz & ripped cds via Roon takes care of it all flawlessly. Don't underestimate the greatness of Roon....btw I have a Teddy ps on my RME. Really widened the soundstage quite noticably

I think I can add  to this conversation and clear up a lot of  confusion..

Had a Node 2i at one time. Bluetooth is not involved when you use the BluOs app nor is it when you use Tidal Direct app. With either method, the music is via wifi to the streamer and then internal DAC of your Vault. The only difference is  the control app. With BluOS you have more than one way to control it. With an Ipad/Iphone  as your control device, you likely will prefer the BlueOS interface as it shows a better multiple album view appearance with than Tidal Direct. With a laptop, (Mac)  as a control device, they are similar.

Upgrading the power supply of the vault will have some benefit, getting a better outboard DAC will also have some benefit. To my mind the Bluesound products are a good entry point into the streaming world and their chief attraction is the low cost and ability to control multiple vaults/nodes/powered speakers in multiple locations.

If you only listen to your main system then you can improve much with a better streamer and DAC but you will loose the BlueOS operating system. Each streamer has it's own operating system. My first upgrade from the Node was a Lumin Streamer. I currently use an Auralic and prefer the user interface to the Lumin.