Others would suggest that, when it comes to speakers, that the "Ultra High-End" sound can only be achieved by megabuck speakers costing 50K, 100K, 250k and beyond
which one? I am confused.
"The Ultra High-End Speaker."
My entire relatively simple high end audio system retails for approx. $70,000, with my speakers alone retailing for approx. $24,000 (Revel Salon 2 speakers). I've been around high-end audio for over 40 years. I attend audio shows and visit local and non-local high-end audio shops on a regular basis. I get to hears a lot of high-end audio speakers and gear all the time. That said, I honestly believe, along with others who've visited my home and have listened to my system, that my system (speakers) produce that ultra high-end, reference quality sound. Others would suggest that, when it comes to speakers, that the "Ultra High-End" sound can only be achieved by megabuck speakers costing 50K, 100K, 250k and beyond. I do not believe that ultra high-end ("Sound Quality") is excusive to those speakers costing a king's ransom. And, I think my own system is am example of what can be achieved at a lower (not for most people) price point. I absolutely believe in the law of diminishing returns, especially when it comes to high-end speakers. What's your definition, idea of, what you consider to be, a "Ultra High-End Speaker, and at what price point does the ultra high-end start?????
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The price doesn't matter in hi-end audio. The performance matters. The ultra high-end audio must sound closer to the original music. The only ultra high-end audio in the world is the Wavetouch audio/speaker since WT is an only natural sound system. All others are just hi-fi or low-fi. Alex/Wavetouch |
Happiness is what we all seek. If you take a poll of 100 people, you will find several opinions. Sometimes we have to align contentment to our bank account. When I moved to the USA from India, I had a pair of JBL speakers that cost me $100.00 a pair. Immense satisfaction they gave all my friends too. I have had fun experimenting with Wilson Audio, Martin Logan, Meridian, Vandersteen, T+A, Vivid Audio, etc. All these speakers were wonderful as I took time and focused on every detail, Audio Stands, Cables, setting up speakers, and optimizing my ECO system. I learned that getting power right was the biggest and cheapest improvement. Setups change but the love of music stays. I was the first store to bring in the Wadax reference DAC and Streamer. It was stunning. What you hear in that CH 10 series system is like no other. Mind you, I have a CH Precision MONO DAC at home and it's just fantastic. I just know that the Wadax system is amazing. That's OK. I own that too. I have customers who have a Technics Integrated with a pair of Stenheim Bookshelf speakers. They play live music with several amazing conductors. They are just content with their system. Pay attention to details. You sit in your home, that's your castle, your ECO system. Enjoy. Each and everyone matters as we all love music. |
I have always liked the science behind Lansche Audio. https://www.lansche-audio.com/en/ Although the site is under construction one is still able to get a sense of what they are about. What I like is the attempt to capture the entire range of the frequency response as it pertains to the human environment. As many have mentioned room treatments would also have a tremendous affect. A good friend had a pair of the Revel Salon 2. A really solid performing speaker. He traded them in and got a pair of Rockports which he regretted. He then invested in a pair of Lanche 8.2 and never looked back. IMHO - the differenes were, that the Revel Salons had alot of energy and really good imaging. The Rockports, looked cool, but fell short especially given the price tag. And the Lansche's - the best way I can think of to describe it is that extremely clean (not clinical) detailed music enveloped the entire environment. I have used Lansche's approach as a guide in my own system as I cannot afford $200K++ for the 8/9.2 models. Inspired by thier design - the active woofer seperated from the passive midrange, which in turn is seprated from the plasma tweeter(also active) - I added a pair of subs to my speakers, and then also added a pair of "Super Ribbon Tweeters". Its far from matching the 9.2 Frequency response, 18 Hz - 150KHz however it has signifigantly expanded upon what I originally had for a fraction of the price. My next investment will be in room treatments. |
It's tricky to find a "keeper" of a speaker for most of us S WE continually search for the next upgrade. I've had some really expensive speakers that were great and some that weren't. Some of the more musical ones were not expensive and considered "high end"- they were Klipsch- Chorus and Cornwall- huge but really musical and dynamic- just a really low Wife Acceptance Factor. Currently I've been really happy with Wilson Sasha 2 which seem to do everything really well. |
My system cost is too low to be mention but being embedded mechanically,electrically and acoustically so well in my room/house for my ears/brain that i am lost in music interpretation or experience ... Sound is no more an impediment for the recording experience .. Then i am no more an audiophile, if i was one anyway, because i learned acoustic enough to know that the gear prices tags is secondary completely i am no more an audiophile focussed on gear buying collection ...I never was anyway , i was learning how to optimize my gear ...I succeeded... You are not alone ...
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I admit up front that I do not consider myself a true audiophile. The extreme sensitivity of audiophiles to differences to subtle for me to notice does not justify my wishing to have speakers costing six figures. The music's emotional content and the orchestra's performance is as intense in most systems for me. However, I make a comparison to luxury watches. A $10,000 Rolex windup watch can be matched by a $10 battery watch. Why would I pay more to tell time the hard way. Cone speakers in cabinets are difficult to get right: the drivers need more complicated crossover networks and filters to compensate for irregular frequency responses and impedances, and the cabinets require extreme bracing steps to prevent the internal sound waves from the cabinet introducing passive speaker element effects. There are even cabinets made with concrete to address this. This is analogous to the Rolex windup watch. Planar magnetic speakers are analogous to the battery watch. They cost far less and have even frequency responses and impedances. They sound more like the live performances in the opera house I go to when I can than $50,000 speakers I heard at a public demonstration at a high-end audio store. The $50,000 speakers sounded better suited to resemble what one hears at an outdoor rock music show than a concert hall. |
It seems at 18.000 including dac and amp ,DSP EQ that it is a bargain if the sound is phenomenal... With a special acoustic room dedicated to them they can be end game ...Especially with the BACCH filters of Choueiri ...But here we must add more money ... My main interest is the top S.Q. for the least money ... This is the hard part of this hobby : no throwing money ... Anybody can buy 500,000 bucks system and putting it in a pro acoustic room of the same price ...We must learn how to do some part ourself at low price this is the fun part ...before music ... This review is interesting : https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dutch-dutch-8c-review.21016/
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When it comes to the ultra high-end, some of the very best sound I've ever heard was a set of the Dutch & Dutch 8c, carefully set up and EQ'd. I have NEVER heard better imaging and the tonal balance couldn't have been better. They retail at about $15k/pair, which is pretty cheap for "ultra high-end", but they stand up against anything I've ever heard, at any price. |
Steve59: You are correct. Based on my own personal experience, the Hegel H390 are definitely underpowering the Revel Salon 2 speakers. I tried it and experienced the same underwhelming results that you did. The H390 doesn't have enough juice to wake up the Salon 2 speakers drivers. But, when I switched to the Hegel H590, "HUGE DIFFERENCE." Because my listening room is not very large, the extremely powerful and very high current H590 works especially well driving the Salon 2s. If I were in a large room, I'd go with separates as to increase the power in order to drive the Salon 2s to their fullest. But, still, in my smaller room, the H590 works great!!! |
I also owned the salon 2 and several other speakers in their price group. The persona 7f and usher be20dmd at the same time and being able to rotate speakers at will and listen as long as wanted I was able to hear specifically to what they did different from each other. I didn't have the same luxury with components and used a Hegel H360 with all 3 speakers. The salon 2 with an 82 db sensitivity was significantly harder to drive so possibly why they sounded so lifeless compared with the other two, Yes matching with a db meter the salon 2 was still dynamically restricted compared to the others, but a more powerful amp might have helped. The Persona 7f are excellent, but have to be 3-5' away from any reflective surfaces, they can change their stripes like no speaker i've ever heard. They can soundstage like a pair of mini monitors or large floorstanders just by changing placement. The 2x8" woofers are actually 8.25 inside the basket and can really push some air. Ushers had my favorite presentation regarding soundstage, imaging and tonal balance, but bass was too fat for my room and the speakers were to physically large to get away from boundary reinforcement. I found that all 3 speakers while different still had comparable quality with similar resolution ability and after owning all 3 at the same time I can't say 1 is better than the other. All 3 meet the bar of diminishing returns with excellent resolution and the deciding points after taste are room acoustics and components. I landed on a different speaker entirely, but still couldn't help but add my .02. |
Congratulation for your room Hilde45 not only esthetical but certainly good in an acoustic way ....😊 Diffusion is key ....
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@baylinor Thank you! I almost went down a rabbit hole with cables and power conditioning before reading a bit more. I realized that they were not the weak links and probably would not make a very big difference. Diffusion improvement was the better expenditure (with lots of measurements) and also continuing to focus on source. I improved my streamer and DAC. Updated the photo, here. |
I always said that everything matter ... Electrical and mechanical working dimension and acoustical ... And even other things as cables or tweaks ... But nothing can replace acoustic at any price for any system because our experience is acoustical anyway nevermi9nd the gear price ...My point is not about negating the value of pricier design only a fool can negate the evident fact that there is High end products with a real improved acoustic value potential ... ... But a dedicated room can be created with time at low cost ...That is one of my point and creating a dedicated room at low cost beat often many upgrades which can be marginal one anyway .... When i spoke about acoustic people are so confused they think about GIK panels on a wall not about acoustic concepts and the way to experiment and play with them ... Buying gear is not enough ... If you dont know what is the listener envelopment concept for example and how to create it in a room forget buying 100000 bucks speakers and even 1,000 bucks one will not sound optimal ... or then pay 100,000 bucks for a PRO ACOUSTICIAN ...😁 Acoustic had nothing to do with taste ... Anyway ... My goal is motivating people to experiment and have fun ... Not to throw their money in illusions of high end without any applied knowledge in their own room FIRST ....
I think as this poster :
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Mike Lavigne did built a state of the art room.I agree with Him don’t spend big dollars until you really understand how things work in this hobby.I never want to spend money on vynil, until I knew how good it will sound.Mike is also right , dollars alone will not do it.Now a days there are many good speakers under 5k if you know what you are doing, you can easily make them sound like ultra highend. |
At the time I heard it, I too thought the Snell Type B (the big version) was a quite nice sounding speaker--very rich and full bodied and authoritative sounding. It was a bit overpowering in bass response in the room I heard it in, but, it was quite a nice system. I do wonder how it would fare after all these years. I would expect that any reassessment would be more the case of my personal taste evolving rather that the technology being superseded. |
I'm with @baylinor
Too often these threads overemphasize the room (by people who can't or won't buy better gear) or the gear (by people who can't or won't pay attention to their room). It seems painfully obvious that a good room with good gear is good, and a great room with great gear is better. All of that is "personal" taste, but really -- good is only good and better is better. And if you can't hear the difference, it's you -- not the room or the gear. |
If you invest upward of (say $250) in an audio system and do NOT BUILD a house (or at least 'barn' or complete addition from ground up) to put it in (including floor, walls, ceiling, power supply (obviously, nothing but a solar powered bttery bank and purely DC equipment), then you lost your mind, and are considered Ultra STUPID High End. |
Lavigne never said that the Revel speakers in a well treated living room compare in design and potential quality to his TOP speakers and to his actual speakers/room ...He said that he could live happy with that... Then read him right ...
You must understand that OBJECTIVE acoustic satisfaction in a dedicated acoustic room where all acoustic factors work without being impeded cannot be confused with the quality design evaluation of the gear which is another matter ... I am happy with my low cost speakers ... Where did i said that buying the superior design of the Revel speakers is useless BECAUSE i designed acoustically my room ? Nowhere did i suggest that ... Neither Lavigne suggested that the Revel will replace his actual system , even if he said that as any of us we can live happy with them... Good acoustic experience dont reduced to design quality price of high end ... There exist a minimal subjective treshold of acoustic satisfaction ...but we need a dedicated room acoustically controlled to experience it the most and for the better with good design to begin with at any price ... Minimal acoustic satisfaction is not TOP OPTIMAL acoustic satisfaction ... The quality of design of each components play a role ...Only idiots will equal my low cost performance speakers even well embedded to Revel speakers and the Revel to the Lavigne speakers ...My low cost system dont compare a second to his even if i am as happy he is with his system ...I am not an idiot ... But if acoustic passive treatment and active mechanical and digital control play the greatest part in acoustic satisfaction experience NOT THE PRICE TAGS... This dont means that price tag of higher design is snake oil ... I never say that high end audio is a MERE scam and only idiots will claim this , but high end audio WITHOUT acoustics is a STOP GAP nevermind the price (i dont speak about few acoustic panels here and there ; read wikipedia definition of psycho-acoustics to begin with )
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Everything matters is the short answer as always. But to over amplify the importance of one aspect of audiophilia over another is not a fruitful argument imo. Room construction, size, acoustic treatments, speakers, amps, preamps, sources, cables, etc..., all that matters if getting the best sound to your ears truly matters to you. Unfortunately there is no easy short cut, not even high end speakers. |
Your post is very true to the general marketing /consumers situation ... It is why i posted for years these facts also ... Snobbism does not exist in acoustic circle , at least less than in audio marketing circle ... Thanks for the post ...
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Very interesting post! Thanks.... This illustrate my point that acoustics science dont reduce to room acoustic and room acoustic dont reduce to passive material treatment but may include active mechanical device as resonators and DSP as Choueiri BACCH filters and this illustrate why psycho-acoustics is the ultimate ground of audio ... The relation between specific brain/specific ears /a specific filters EXCLUDE simplistic recipe as we read often ... Acoustics applied to Great Hall and to very small room differe very much and it is why as medecine is a curative and preventive ART grounded in science , it cannot be reduced to a technology excluding human thinking ( save for diagnostic by A. I. as a tool )...
This is why it takes me a year to do my room full time ... I learned making errors i corrected all along 7 days a week ... It cost me a great amount of time but there is no price for learni9ng and anyway those who dont pay with time will pay with their money and big ...Or stay frustrated ... Psycho-acoustics rule audio not the reverse ... Price tags dont matter as much many claim...
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I'm sure the OP has a nice system but, with no disrespect to the OP, the post is a bit self-serving. If the op approaches listening to other more systems from the perspective of the argument in his/her post then it is likely that his/her discriminatory powers are disrupted by confirmation bias. A good system at a particular price point is a good system but it doesn't imply that systems at higher price points can't be a lot better. By way of contextual comparison, the Wilson Sabrina X's are broadly comparable in price to the OP's speakers and they are a fabulous sounding speaker. But an Alexia V is quite substantially better, especially in more accurately reproducing scale and dynamics. In summary, both speakers are great, but one is greater. |
My 2 cents: Over the past 30 years I have listened to too many speakers to list. Ranging in price from a few thousand to nearly $100K for a pair. In many different settings with a large variety of expensive gear. A few months back a friend bought a used pair of Klipsch Chorus ll’s. He couldn’t brag about them enough. So for fun I brought a pristine pair for $1000. I hooked them up to my Luxman L-509Z and I was blown away. One song I always use to audition gear is Hotel California from When Hell Freezes Over (Eagles). I had to play it several times to make sure I was hearing was real. The band was literally in my listening room. When Don Henley starts singing it was amazingly easy to pick out his position on the stage. Each member of the band was in a position easily discernible. My point? Outstanding sound quality from a set of speakers is not solely related to amount of money spent. I will never sell the Klipsch, but I will sell off others I currently own. |
Your speakers are good but can be Much Better, Being honest the internal Xover parts are average at best like a 7 out of 15 just unscrew a bottom driver there areNo name brand capacitors ,or resistors, I owned aAudio store for a decade and this is one area modt speaker companies fail it’s all about profit , some of your drivers are made in the far East look at your Xover inside go to Humble homemade hifi capacitor test the tops are Duelunds best capacitors rated 14.5 on down these yellow caps are made in Taiwan. ,Solen another very popular company rated a 7 and $3 resistors ! Mills much better $12 , Path Audio best resistors $30 each and 100% better sonically .if you plan on keeping them. just put in decent ,it’s all about profit . Sad but true. |
Do you have any uploaded live recording of your system? I love to hear it. Alex/Wavetouch My system live recording => Pink Floyd – Time - David Gilmour, Wavetouch audio, Live recording Edith Piaf - Non, je ne regrette rien, Wavetouch audio - Live recording |
The Salon’s are great speakers but they’re not the peak of the speaker designer’s art. I don’t think that you can get the measure of a speaker at a show or dealer’s shop. I think you have to live with them for a while. Especially the ultra-high-end type. Your ears or brain have to adjust to them. If someone like @mikelavigne is willing to put the money AND the time and effort into an ultra-high-end system, I think he can probably build one that sounds noticeably better than yours, no disrespect intended. Diminishing returns will surely also be noticeable, but if someone has the money and wants a system and room that’s the best he can buy, I don’t have a problem with that. There seem to be a lot of posts on this forum that imply or state that high-end audio or some aspect of it is a scam or that everybody should listen to a system like the poster’s or at least one based on what the poster has found works for him. I think we all hear differently, have different tastes, have different listening rooms, have different budgets, different wives 😁, etc. and that is why we all have different systems. I say live and let live, and that’s just my opinion. |
False.... A purpose built room+a sizeable investment in treatments that actually work can drastically reduce the perceived performance gap (and all associated metrics of audiophilia) between high end gear and relatively affordable gear. For example, I could demonstrate to guys like you how a 60k speaker and a 1k speaker sound in the same room (one of my rooms)...a good one with about 40k to 50k worth of treatments that work, i.e. how close it starts to get. Of course, if such truths get demonstrated too much, the "high end" sales guy (which is maybe half the forum) may start to freak out that his sales numbers could suffer. But then again, he need not worry...because most audiophiliac dudes love to buy a few hundred thousand dollars worth of gear, plop it down in a sht house and hope for miracles anyways. Such dudes may usually buy 2 doofus panels, put it up in a couple of spots for decorative purposes and claim that their room is treated! Hence, the high end sales guys has nothing to worry about...high end sales will be great as usual. All is good in the world...Amen.
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I have heard a number of rooms built from the ground up as audio rooms with full blown complete room treatment. Even with such rooms, subjective impression of the rooms vary greatly. Most of such rooms were, to me, disappointing—too dry and analytical sounding with bleached out harmonics. The best was a $250,000 room designed by an acoustic architect. That room did not look like it was treated because most treatment was hidden behind the wall coverings, including the truly giant bass traps in all four corners. The front wall had a very large convex wood diffusor that looked like room decoration, not treatment. But, even this room, which I liked, got mixed reviews. Two of my friends did not like the sound and both are audio professionals. So much of good sound IS subjective. |
My point being: There's a number of super high quality moderately priced speakers out there like mine that perform at such high levels of proficiency and produce such astonishingly superb sound quality that, inch for inch, pound for pound, one has to question the need to spend more. My beloved Revel Salon 2 speakers are a prime example of that. Yes, I've heard a number of moderately priced speakers just like mine, where pure sound quality is concerned, can go toe-to-toe with any of the megabuck, ultra high-end, cost no object, speakers costing multiples of their retail price. Were a lot of the ultra high-end speakers really have a distinct advantage is with their size and "Scale." Just one mans opinion. |
In a larger scale commercial application the cost of great sound goes way up proportionally beyond anything found in a persons home. For example: https://venuesnow.com/las-vegas-sphere-unveils-audio-system/
World’s most advanced!
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Where did i say that i am the only one to know ?
I just thank Lavigne for his post because he knows and many others here knows too... But many dont ...They must learn by some that we can enjoy good sound at low cost if we STUDY and EXPERIMENT ... Many here brag about costly components merely then i gave another perspective ... Acoustic panels dont replace dedicated acoustic room either most of the times ... Sorry ...
Spending thousand dollars in component has nothing to do with acoustics ... And acoustics knowledge dont reduce to room acoustic treatment ... And room treatment dont reduce to passive materials treatment ...
My dedicated acoustic room cost me nothing because i made it myself not with only absorbing and reflective and diffusive surface in the right balance but i used also one hundred resonators mechanically tuned and others devices of my own ...my hobby was learning acoustic by hand ... Then once more you confuse knowledge with money ... And for what reason my Mission Cyrus speakers must be cheap sound and my Sansui amplifier cheap sound too ? They must sound "cheap"? There exist no concept of "cheap" sound in acoustic .. Even if my gear is modest , it is basically good gear and it is enough to experiment with ...My goal was learning not bragging about my gear ...
What is your point ? the fact that my speakers cannot rival the Revel speakers does not means that my sound quality is condemned to be "cheap" even in a dedicated room ... A minimal satiosfaction threshold was my goal not the TOP OPTIMAL one whcho for sure will cost much more money than what i have ...
All my post was there to motivate people to be creative at peanuts cost ... If they own a dedicated room for sure ... Nobody can experiment much in a living room ...
Then you have no point against my posts and associating a good sound with price tag is the summum of ignorance because it is NOT EVEN WRONG in many case ...If you feel that i know better than you feel free to feel it but my goal was not to patronize you but to speak about my experience .... I never brag about my system price tag and i NEVER associate good acoustic experience with a big amount of money ... I advocated for acoustic experiments at no cost ... What is your problem with my knowledge ?
And i dont have a "cheap" soundfield experience by the way at all , and my active modified speakers are low cost and my headphone low cost too ...
Guess why ?
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Here’s an example. In a smaller room it is hard to fault the sound quality of a pair of tiny kef ls50 metas plus a good quality sub. But that is only within their limits which is mainly how loud they can go without distortion. So for around 3K properly setup in a smaller room you can basically have all there is to have up to say 85-90db SPL or so. Now some might want to go louder and some may just not care for the sound. But the sound is without question technically very high end. As the room size gets larger so will the cost of best possible sound. But a pair of $32k Kef Blade metas can do the job in most any room found in most people’s houses.
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It depends on room size mainly. Larger rooms require larger speakers and larger good quality speakers cost more. $24K for speakers should be able to do it in most cases if spent wisely. More cost may or may not yield some marginal improvements. The devil is always in the details. The Revels are very good quality and a very fine choice. |
Mahgister-what makes you think you are the only 1 that knows certain things? For most of us that spend tens of thousands of dollars on gear, don’t you think these same people know how to treat their room? The room is a must to do right first. A good treated room can cost many thousands of dollars. But the thing is, even if you spend tens of thousands building your room with all the acoustic treatments with the right dimensions, a cheap stereo will still sound cheap. But this same room will allow your better equipment like the Revels the OP has, to sound their best. It would be foolish to spend thousands on the room if you have cheap equipment, but at the same time, it would be foolish if you didn’t do this if you have good quality equipment, like the Revels. |
You are right but it will not be enough...😁 Because of the lost of some acoustic information in the spatial dimension of the sound by crosstalk and this IN ANY STEREO SYSTEM at whatever price and perfection level ... ... It is the reason why my only recommended upgrade, for those who are happy as Lavigne and me with their system/room, is the BACCH filters by Dr. Choueiri ... It is true for Mike Lavigne system as for my very low cost system , we are happy with our own; any other upgrade would be problematic or perhaps marginal in the Lavigne Case ; in my case any real upgrade will be more costly and less impactful than the BACCH filters themselves ... Psycho-acoustics science rule the gear and room and their relation ... Nevermind the price tag here this will not change the basic fact about hearing ......
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Thanks for your wise answer from experience ... My experience with low cost good components is they benefit tremendously from the well done coupling with the room acoustic ...Your experience with high end components confirm my own experience ... my best to you ...
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you don’t need a custom designed large room, but a good room is a prerequisite to ultimate performance. something that won’t hold you back. then.......(1) having the room the right shape and size for the speaker, and (2) tweaking the room to a high degree........is where the code gets broken. there are quite a few speakers that can be a part of an ultimate system. that just takes a check book. but then it’s up to the end user to chase perfection. it’s not for everyone. but dollars are not the main thing. gear lust will not be the end game. but nothing wrong with nice pretty things. modest systems can sound really great. i did not have ultimate performance with lots of dollars invested until i figured out how to get the room to work right. so dollars do not equate to success. it can raise the ceiling, but not deliver the promise. |
It did not boil down to the synergy which is only the basic starting factor requirement here ... To attain ultra high end sound you need an acoustic room and a dedicated one for specific speakers ... Ask Delavigne what role play his room in his sound quality experience snd say to him that he throw his money out of the window with his room , all we need is the higher price tag and synergy between components .........😁
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