"The Ultra High-End Speaker."

My system cost is too low  to be mention  but being embedded mechanically,electrically and acoustically so well in my room/house for my ears/brain  that i am lost in music interpretation or experience ... Sound is no more an impediment for the recording experience ..

Then i am no more an audiophile, if i was one anyway, because i learned acoustic enough to know that the gear prices tags is secondary completely i am no more an audiophile focussed on gear buying collection ...I never was anyway , i was learning how to optimize my gear ...I succeeded...

You are not alone ...

I admit up front that I do not consider myself a true audiophile. The extreme sensitivity of audiophiles to differences to subtle for me to notice does not justify my wishing to have speakers costing six figures. The music’s emotional content and the orchestra’s performance is as intense in most systems for me.

I admit up front that I do not consider myself a true audiophile. The extreme sensitivity of audiophiles to differences to subtle for me to notice does not justify my wishing to have speakers costing six figures. The music’s emotional content and the orchestra’s performance is as intense in most systems for me.

It seems at 18.000 including dac and amp ,DSP EQ that it is a bargain if the sound is phenomenal...

With a special acoustic room dedicated to them they can be end game ...Especially with the BACCH filters of Choueiri ...But here we must add more money ...

My main interest is the top S.Q. for the least money ... This is the hard part of this hobby : no throwing money ... Anybody can buy 500,000 bucks system and putting it in a pro acoustic room of the same price ...We must learn how to do some part ourself at low price this is the fun part ...before music ...

This review is interesting :

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dutch-dutch-8c-review.21016/

When it comes to the ultra high-end, some of the very best sound I’ve ever heard was a set of the Dutch & Dutch 8c, carefully set up and EQ’d. I have NEVER heard better imaging and the tonal balance couldn’t have been better. They retail at about $15k/pair, which is pretty cheap for "ultra high-end", but they stand up against anything I’ve ever heard, at any price.

$15k is still a chunk of change, but for that $15k you get a full audio system. Just add a streamer or PC and you’re done. This is a powered loudspeaker with active crossover, DSP EQ and DAC built-in. No need to spend anything on an amplifier, preamp, interconnects or speaker cables. It sits on your Local Area Network as a Roon target and you just connect to it. And then you’re done.

Pretty good value it seems to me.

 

Congratulation for your room Hilde45 not only esthetical but certainly good in an acoustic way ....😊

Diffusion is key ....

Updated the photo, here.

I always said that everything matter ...

Electrical and mechanical working dimension and acoustical ... And even other things as cables or tweaks ...

But nothing can replace acoustic at any price for any system because our experience is acoustical anyway nevermi9nd the gear price ...My point is not about negating the value of pricier design only a fool can negate the evident fact that there is High end products with a real improved acoustic value potential ... ...

But a dedicated room can be created with time at low cost ...That is one of my point and creating a dedicated room at low cost beat often many upgrades which can be marginal one anyway ....

When i spoke about acoustic people are so confused they think about GIK panels on a wall not about acoustic concepts and the way to experiment and play with them ...

Buying gear is not enough ...

If you dont know what is the listener envelopment concept for example and how to create it in a room forget buying 100000 bucks speakers and even 1,000 bucks one will not sound optimal ... or then pay 100,000 bucks for a PRO ACOUSTICIAN ...😁

Acoustic had nothing to do with taste ...

Anyway ...

My goal is motivating people to experiment and have fun ... Not to throw their money in illusions of high end without any applied knowledge in their own room FIRST ....

I think as this poster :

Mike Lavigne did built a state of the art room.I agree with Him don’t spend big dollars until you really understand how things work in this hobby.I never want to spend money on vynil, until I knew how good it will sound.Mike is also right , dollars alone will not do it.Now a days there are many good speakers under 5k if you know what you are doing, you can easily make them sound like ultra highend.

Lavigne never said that the Revel speakers in a well treated living room compare in design and potential quality to his TOP speakers and to his actual speakers/room ...He said that he could live happy with that... Then read him right ...

You must understand that OBJECTIVE acoustic satisfaction in a dedicated acoustic room where all acoustic factors work without being impeded cannot be confused with the quality design evaluation of the gear which is another matter ...

I am happy with my low cost speakers ... Where did i said that buying the superior design of the Revel speakers is useless BECAUSE i designed acoustically my room ? Nowhere did i suggest that ...

Neither Lavigne suggested that the Revel will replace his actual system , even if he said that as any of us we can live happy with them... Good acoustic experience dont reduced to design quality price of high end ... There exist a minimal subjective treshold of acoustic satisfaction ...but we need a dedicated room acoustically controlled to experience it the most and for the better with good design to begin with at any price ...

Minimal acoustic satisfaction is not TOP OPTIMAL acoustic satisfaction ...

The quality of design of each components play a role ...Only idiots will equal my low cost performance speakers even well embedded to Revel speakers and the Revel to the Lavigne speakers ...My low cost system dont compare a second to his even if i am as happy he is with his system ...I am not an idiot ...

But if acoustic passive treatment and active mechanical and digital control play the greatest part in acoustic satisfaction experience NOT THE PRICE TAGS... This dont means that price tag of higher design is snake oil ...

I never say that high end audio is a MERE scam and only idiots will claim this , but high end audio WITHOUT acoustics is a STOP GAP nevermind the price (i dont speak about few acoustic panels here and there ; read wikipedia definition of psycho-acoustics to begin with )

If someone like @mikelavigne is willing to put the money AND the time and effort into an ultra-high-end system, I think he can probably build one that sounds noticeably better than yours, no disrespect intended. Diminishing returns will surely also be noticeable, but if someone has the money and wants a system and room that’s the best he can buy, I don’t have a problem with that.

There seem to be a lot of posts on this forum that imply or state that high-end audio or some aspect of it is a scam or that everybody should listen to a system like the poster’s or at least one based on what the poster has found works for him. I think we all hear differently, have different tastes, have different listening rooms, have different budgets, different wives 😁, etc. and that is why we all have different systems.

Your post is very true to the general marketing /consumers situation ...

It is why i posted for years  these facts also ... Snobbism does not exist in acoustic circle , at least less than in audio marketing circle ...

Thanks for the post ...

False.... A purpose built room+a sizeable investment in treatments that actually work can drastically reduce the perceived performance gap (and all associated metrics of audiophilia) between high end gear and relatively affordable gear.

For example, I could demonstrate to guys like you how a 60k speaker and a 1k speaker sound in the same room (one of my rooms)...a good one with about 40k to 50k worth of treatments that work, i.e. how close it starts to get.

Of course, if such truths get demonstrated too much, the "high end" sales guy (which is maybe half the forum) may start to freak out that his sales numbers could suffer. But then again, he need not worry...because most audiophiliac dudes love to buy a few hundred thousand dollars worth of gear, plop it down in a sht house and hope for miracles anyways. Such dudes may usually buy 2 doofus panels, put it up in a couple of spots for decorative purposes and claim that their room is treated! Hence, the high end sales guys has nothing to worry about...high end sales will be great as usual. All is good in the world...Amen.

Very interesting post! Thanks....

This illustrate my point that acoustics science dont reduce to room acoustic and room acoustic dont reduce to passive material treatment but may include active mechanical device as resonators and DSP as Choueiri BACCH filters and this illustrate why psycho-acoustics is the ultimate ground of audio ...

The relation between specific brain/specific ears /a specific filters EXCLUDE simplistic recipe as we read often ...

Acoustics applied to Great Hall and to very small room differe very much and it is why as medecine is a curative and preventive ART grounded in science , it cannot be reduced to a technology excluding human thinking ( save for diagnostic by A. I. as a tool )...

This is why it takes me a year to do my room full time ... I learned making errors i corrected all along 7 days a week ... It cost me a great amount of time but there is no price for learni9ng and anyway those who dont pay with time will pay with their money and big ...Or stay frustrated ...

Psycho-acoustics rule audio not the reverse ... Price tags dont matter as much many claim...

I have heard a number of rooms built from the ground up as audio rooms with full blown complete room treatment. Even with such rooms, subjective impression of the rooms vary greatly. Most of such rooms were, to me, disappointing—too dry and analytical sounding with bleached out harmonics.

The best was a $250,000 room designed by an acoustic architect. That room did not look like it was treated because most treatment was hidden behind the wall coverings, including the truly giant bass traps in all four corners. The front wall had a very large convex wood diffusor that looked like room decoration, not treatment. But, even this room, which I liked, got mixed reviews. Two of my friends did not like the sound and both are audio professionals. So much of good sound IS subjective.

Mahgister-what makes you think you are the only 1 that knows certain things?

For most of us that spend tens of thousands of dollars on gear, don’t you think these same people know how to treat their room? The room is a must to do right first.

A good treated room can cost many thousands of dollars. But the thing is, even if you spend tens of thousands building your room with all the acoustic treatments with the right dimensions, a cheap stereo will still sound cheap.

But this same room will allow your better equipment like the Revels the OP has, to sound their best. It would be foolish to spend thousands on the room if you have cheap equipment, but at the same time, it would be foolish if you didn’t do this if you have good quality equipment, like the Revels.

You are right but it will not be enough...😁

Because of the lost of some acoustic information in the spatial dimension of the sound by crosstalk and this IN ANY STEREO SYSTEM at whatever price and perfection level ... ...

It is the reason why my only recommended upgrade, for those who are happy as Lavigne and me with their system/room, is the BACCH filters by Dr. Choueiri ...

It is true for Mike Lavigne system as for my very low cost system , we are happy with our own; any other upgrade would be problematic or perhaps marginal in the Lavigne Case ; in my case any real upgrade will be more costly and less impactful than the BACCH filters themselves ...

Psycho-acoustics science  rule the gear and room and their relation ...

Nevermind the price tag here  this will not change the basic fact about hearing  ......

The ONLY way to get the best performance out of ANY speaker is to first, use the best electronics and front-ends, second, to tune the room, and third to set up the speakers in the best position and then tune the crossovers to the room and electronics.

Thanks for your wise answer from experience ...

My experience with low cost good components is they benefit tremendously from the well done coupling with the room acoustic ...Your experience with high end components confirm my own experience ...

my best to you ...

i did not have ultimate performance with lots of dollars invested until i figured out how to get the room to work right. so dollars to not equate to success. it can raise the ceiling, but not deliver the promise.

It did not boil down to the synergy which is only the basic starting factor requirement here ...

To attain ultra high end sound you need an acoustic room and a dedicated one for specific speakers ... Ask Delavigne what role play his room in his sound quality experience snd say to him that he throw his money out of the window with his room , all we need is the higher price tag and synergy between components .........😁

To some degree it’s all relative to what we’ve been exposed to, but those who’ve owned and lived with that "ultra high end sound" truly know the difference. It still boils down to synergy of the individual components.

Thanks great post indeed from someone who knows better by owning some of the best ... ... 😊

my opinion is that you can achieve ultra high end sound with Revel Salon 2’s. given the appropriate sized room, meticulously treated, top notch power grid, solid well matured signal path and superior sources.

The soundfield of speakers and headphone are two different things ...

The timbre definition the immersiveness and all the spatial characteristics of sound which are numerous cannot be determined by the mere speakers choice...

Speakers exist only in a room, controlled one or uncontrolled ...

And any stereo system or speakers is impeding the spatial characteristic of sound by crosstalk ...

But headphone lack the body sensation of speakers and deep bass and they sound always artificial timbre ( my 9 headphones in particular) except for some very rare and costlier one ...The soundfield in most case STAY in the head ... ( save my K340 modified and perhaps top few others i dont know personally as the Raal or top Hifiman and Top Omega Stax )

Anyway timbre, immersiveness and spatial characteristics of sound dont come with speakers price tag ... They come with room acoustic coupling and with adding to that the necessary BACCH filters which is the acoustic last revolution ...

Nevermind the price you pay for your speakers ...Or even for your headphones... You will need acoustic material control and/or acoustic DSP ...With my K340 i need the two as with my speakers ...

My low cost system now is satisfying so much, but why ?

Because i succeeded creating a room/speakers relation very intimate as with headphone in a near listening position in a controlled small room ... And i succeeded in creating with headphone a soundfield speaker- like in timbre and spatial characteristics out of the head in many recording ... For me it was the goal... I listen music alone ...

Ok i spoke too much and we will go to the "Bugatti" and " Veyron" level speakers talk forgetting this new more affordable car that which is also a plane thanks to the BACCH filters .... 😁

Price tag  dont afford S. Q. ...Psycho-acoustics does at lower price nowadays ...

High end SOUND not high end gear begins when any speakers at any price is well embed mechanically, electrically and acoustically ( and i dont spoke about mere room acoustic here ) ...

Ultra high end sound ask for very ultra costly gear for sure ...

There is a difference in cost between a minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold and the higher acoustical optimal threshold possible ...

My point is : it is acoustic science not the gear price tag who define the conditions for the winner ...

My point is two subjective/objective thresholds in the law of diminishing returns are DETERMINED more by acoustics knowledge in the design and in the subjective acoustic experience than by the mere price tag ... Sorry for some of those who own one million bucks system , it is not a warranty for owning a ULTRA high end sound because the gear component cost such and such, it is way not enough ...

Then i will not speak mostly as the OP about the ultra high end speakers choices because this is less meaningful than speaking about this specific system/room or this other specific system/room with or without the BACCH filters for example correcting any faulty stereo system nevermind his price ...

Psycho-acoustics rule the show not the speakers price choices linearly ordered ...

My two cents ...