I have a friend with R2R. He points out all of the challenges which are much more than most realize. but he says when he has time and freedom for a R2R listening session, it is worth it.
The dangerous world of Reel-to-Reel Tape
It feels like I re-entered the world of tape knowing full well of all the downsides, yet I did it anyway. I spent much of my youth glued to my dad's decks, making recordings. As cassette and digital came of age, I always appreciated the sound of tape.
Whether this adventure is worth it is a subjective exercise. For folks who plop down $500-$1k on cables or those who swap gear often, tape is really not that expensive, relatively speaking. Titles are limited though.
The sound quality and experience is quite something. Before jumping back into R2R, I had 4 versions of Muddy Waters' Folksinger. Hearing Chad Kasem's firm's work on it in 15ips it's just something else. Body, size, and presence are just different than very good vinyl and digital. And this is with the stock reproduce board from a Revox PR99 MKIII. I can only imagine what's going to happen when I rebuild that card, put in a modern one, or run directly from the head out to a preamp.
Maybe I'll see some of you in R2R Rehab, where I'll try to get sober from tape.
58 responses Add your response
@jbhiller I have an Otari 5050, & finding NEW blank tapes are so hard. Rebuilding that card would open up a Rabbit hole (LOL), & I'm sure it'll be worth every cent. Good luck my fellow audio man. |
@jbhiller thanks, but didn't see any blank tapes |
Here is an interesting post on Audigon discussing the superiority of 15ips 2T tape SQ versus vinyl or digital: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/reel-to-reel-machine-for-15-ips-playback All I can say is; IMHO 15ips 2T tape can have the best SQ of any medium, albeit at a stupid price. For example, Lyn Stanley London With A Twist, or Norah Jones Come Away With Me, both these recording, and others, make people think they are listening to live music in my home, that good! Why do you think a lot of high end equipment manufacturers are using R2R tape to demonstrate their products at audio shows? |
If I ever get into R2R, I would invest in a very high quality R2R deck, otherwise it’s pointless. And this is what I would buy + all 30 odd titles from Analog Productions 😊 https://www.ballfinger.de/analog-open-reel-tape-recorder-m-063-h6 |
I purchased my Teac X-10R R2R in 1981 while stationed in Germany. During the 80’s and early 90’s I recorded 30 reels of my favorite vinyl albums. I encoded all of my reels using a dbx 244 Type II noise reduction unit. The 224 not only removed all tape hiss, it also expanded the dynamic range. I loved the sound of my recordings. About the mid 90’s, I got into streaming music via Logitech Squeezebox Duets and rarely used the R2R, and it has sat unused for about the last 10 years. A few weeks ago, I had it serviced and have been listening to those old tapes. They still sound great. Just this week I did some A/B testing of Qobuz versus my R2R. My R2R sounded better to me. If you look at my profile, you’ll see my R2R sitting in a Teac reel rack, beneath the rack is the Teac maintenance kit I purchased with the deck; it still has head and pinch roller cleaning fluid 🤗. In my profile, it’s only audio art. After getting it serviced, I placed it beside my turntable on my Butcher Block gear rack. The only problem is I can’t record because my BHK pre amp doesn’t have Record Out. So, I’ve decided to buy an integrated amp with recording capabilities and sell my PS Audio pre amp and power amp. An Accuphase E280 or E-380 is on my short list. |
if you really want everything tape can offer, this is what gets you there. read the first post which describes the upgrades and custom work to the Ampex decks. i owned Studer A-820’s for 15 years, this is another level beyond that. prosumer level new decks such as the Ballfinger are nice, but not close to this. check my system page for current pictures in my room of these beauties. and i have a number of tapes which do show just what these can really do. it is dangerous to listen. you will be changed forever. it messes with your head. |
Yes, nothing quite like the *whoosh* of the big reels on rewind.....*S* Once upon, a Revox A77 was a fun diversion, followed by a Sony Beta VCR audio only....near CD response for the time, but then digital crashed that party.... Mike, you're good at creating envy...but don't stop.... ;) *L* ..a 'hot rod' Ampex......it was bad enough with Lincolns'... |
I never had a reel-to-reel back back in the day, and only in the past few years did I discover the format (and only then to help a frield digitize some home tapes his parents had of their wedding). Once I got a feel for the format however I was hooked.
|
50 years ago I was into R2R and the first thing I did with all my albums was record them at 15 IPS from the new vinyl. At that point I had complete collections of the Stones, Les Zeppelin, Bob Dylan, The Allman Brothers and more. Then I got into 4 Channel but was limited to buying prerecorded material. It was quite the journey, but life intervened and divorce dismantled my system and my musical world at that time. The only downside as I recall was the inability to quickly find a specific track and switch and what I wanted to hear. It was terrific at putting on music that lasted longer than one side of an album. I miss it, but time has not been kind to the genre. I hope enough people get into R2R so that it can make a comeback where more choices are available for those who have discovered its merits and understand the shortcomings. |
You all are making me want to get my old R2R serviced and added to my system. It’s nothing special, but I still remember how amazed I was that my recording of Working Man’s Dead and other recordings sounded better than the vinyl I recorded them from. Being analytical that never made sense to me - but my ears knew it was true. I hooked up the deck a couple years ago and one of the channels had major issues. I think it’s time to find someone that can get it back up to speed. Hope to see you all in rehab. Matt |
As a servicers who occassionally "enjoy" the opportunity to get the lights to come on, reels spinning, and meters bouncing on 50+ year-old R2Rs, I can best describe the experience as attempting to fix a combination of a (non-functional) Wurtlizer Juke Box and (mechanically challenged) vintage Pinball machine stuffed inside of the same chassis. Not for the faint of heart. But, it will take plastic surgery to get the smile of the faces of the owners when they are brought back to life. |
I need an r2r rehab…… I tried to post a pic. Two otaris: mtr 10 and 12. The 12 is recent to copy and trade. buying tape is like scoring drugs from a new dealer: its easy to get burned. but once you do….. i now have a friend teaching me long distance. Fluke meters, Oscilloscope, oscillator. A lot of learning but fun. if you have a lot of disposable income it is easier with tapes at $500 a piece and techs and maintenance adding up quickly. it is more hands on by a mile than vinyl. The sound, call it a different coloration, call it what you will, i have compared mediums, and if the music was originally recorded to tape and you have a low generation numbered copy, then there is no better. Period. Self built, modified for nab and iec, phono preamps are a year or so away.
|
My friend has an Otari, 15 ips, 2 track, played me Led Zeppelin, holy crap, now I know what they were doing!!!! Best sound I ever heard. Still remember it, probably will never forget it. He's got lots more now for me to hear. If you have funds and room, go for it. I have Teac X2000R (their last prosumer deck) 7-1/2" IPS, 4 track pre-recorded tapes, not like 15 ips 2 track, but still that source beats anything here. i.e. if limited resources, no need to go 15ips, big expensive tapes to move into 'better than what you have'. however, as noted, pre-recorded content is limited by their era and end of production. those pre-recorded tapes, 50, some 60 years old surprisingly still sound amazing, no bleed thru, no stretching, the ends can be brittle, I add new leader tape to both ends, to transfer the startup force to the new leader. I bought over 500 of them years back, sold 100 of them, only 1 return because it appeared USPS drove a truck over it intentionally. |
I know little about R2R machines. But in late 1978, my fiancée and I hosted a party in a flat in Putney that was my girlfriend’s parents’ pied-à-terre, using my (later, but now deceased) father-in-law’s tape deck. A compilation tape made goodness knows how by my wife to be (she hasn’t the faintest idea these days about connecting devices) and a giant beef curry made by my mother-in-law-to-be (also now deceased). I think Jethro Tull and Wishbone Ash were involved. And the only present day effect is that I still have to send Christmas cards to some attendees, who I met for the first time that evening, and have not seen since. But to be on topic, I think it was a Grundig. And it sat on a shelf above a Thorens turntable and a Sansui receiver. I had only ever handled R2R tapes in my school’s language lab, as we were supposed to be learning French, but actually recorded our burps and played them back to each other. Shameful, I know. |
Some of the best sound I have heard came from a well restored Studer A820. There really is no other source besides tape that I have heard that can bring that level of realism. Problem is, and this is why I have not gone down the 'rabbit hole', the price of entry and to play is extremely high these days. If one is into vinyl ( like I am) to add tape and do an ongoing justice to vinyl as well is almost prohibitive, cost wise. For those who can, I say you have the best of all worlds. Tape is the best source from a SQ perspective. |
Ah, Retirement! Jan 1 2024! Now I can have some time to play with my toys again. Back in the dark past when decent R2R was all new and I was single, I bulked up on MoR Teac 6010's and TDK or Maxell tapes. (I ran an FM station out of my dorm room for a few years and this made it fun...) I now have 4 Teacs and ~2000 tapes to get reacquainted with. As a Hands-on EE I have a bunch of bench equipment to refurb/upgrade these old friends and expect to spend 2024 there, getting everything up to spec. and putting lots of hours on my headphones. I also have several other decks to do pre-rolls and check for splices, shedding, etc. before I put any crud or wear on my favorite units. The Teacs are not TOL by any stretch, but I bought two of them new, and know every mile and insult they have been subjected to. Other than refurb parts, I expect the only new purchase Might be a 24-bit A to D converter to dump my tapes onto my 18 TB NAS box as FLACs if I am not happy with the 16/44.1 output of my Parasound Z Phono USB. I bought the Parasound new a while back to use with my old Dual CS-7000 since the Parasound could disable the RIAA curve so I could use custom curves when playing or recording 78's. Since I have downsized and my entire home is smaller than either my shop or my living room used to be, all this hardware and media has to go and will be showing up on various forums as I work through it. The world of Reel-to-Reel tape IS dangerous, but what part of this hobby isn't? |
@knittersspouse
Congratulations on your upcoming retirement. It can be a the greatest of times for audio, it sure has been for me.
|
Mijostyn - Many of the old Nagra decks were truly amazing, and if refurbished well, can hold their own against some of the best today. Streaming HRes saves you most of the fuss and the physical interaction with your media. If you just want to enjoy the music, I dare say HRes is probably the way to go for you. For me, a big part of R-to-R is the way it brings back the memories of live recording sessions, mix tapes, and special events I worked. For some folks it offers a different sound signature than either digital or vinyl. For others, it is an experience unto itself- perhaps a unique sound, or perhaps a trip down memory lane that can never be recreated any other way. Bottom line - take time to enjoy the end result. May it leave a smile on your face! |
@knittersspouse +1 - Those were the days!! |
I hope you mean that the dbx box preserved the dynamics of those recordings you were capturing. Me, I wouldn't want the original dynamics altered in any way when taping (it audibly "pumps" if you push dynamic restoration more than 5-8%). I have an Akai open reel that's 7.5 ips only, but I've done some experiments with my 3bx and some old green-box EMI tape. The resulting recordings are slightly airless, but there's still more air there than digital! I must have 20 ways to play a cd or digital file, all with different results, none do "air" well. As for recording your vinyl today, surely your phono preamp before the BHK has a fixed line-out. You could use a splitter cable at that point, send the signal to the BHK Pre AND the tape deck or dbx box at the same time. Then monitor your recordings thru the BHK in your chosen tape input. |
please describe your most recent experience supporting that viewpoint. the particulars of the digital source and tape. it is exactly the opposite for me. agree that digital is wonderful; however.....the best tape is on another realism level
i do agree with you on this. owned a Nagra IV-S and Nagra T; both visual works of art. not the tip top level of tape performance, but still very fine when all is working properly. |
Please allow me to ask a question because of my ignorance. What is the source of music for these reel to reel tape decks. Well, cared for tapes last without deterioration for 10 - 30 years. So, where do you get the music? And if you simply record from your vinyl or CDs… are the taped recordings supposed to sound better?
I recently read an article on how VHS is back and stores are opening up… with refurbished decks becoming really popular. What next the 8 track? I am confused. |
all 3 ( 4 really if you count DAT ) have merits and flaws…. but the sweeping generalizations are typically those who don’t really know….i call them small sample size audiophiles Since i didn’t go so far as buying my own record lathe, i have very direct experience w comparing the other formats…. Ultimately library size issues across multiple systems / geographies won out w high speed half track tape going by the wayside…but for slam and impact IF the outboard deck electronics can keep up TAPE ( 15 ips half track ) is IMO unmatched… And yes, i had a fantastic A2D… IF it fits your needs and wants… go for the ride… @ghdprentice besides the microscopic commercial tape selection, there is a thriving pirate trade in so called protection copy masters ( n generation )…. akin to messing w fentanyl…. but more $…. ha
|
@dogberry great and hilarious post… long live the obligatory christmas card ritual |
I can only tell you that, in general, my tapes sounded better than the source vinyl albums - especially those recorded 15 ips. Back in the day, I also used a dbx 3bx to tweak the dynamic range a little bit during playback. The sound was a little fuller with a tad more bass. I still have the 3bx, but I no longer use it.
I use XLR cables between my Stellar phono pre and the BHK. I may give the RCA cables with splitter idea a try. That would be a lot cheaper than buying a new preamp or integrared amp 😂! |
"....what's old is new, yet again..." *S* @thom_oz ...as one who's just beginning to play w/XLRs', that 'splitter' routine is still a SOP 'round here...*G* @oldschool1948 ...dust off the dbx while you're at it.... ;) Nothing like a 'spoonful of sugar' that made magic happen before.... |
When I went off to college in the early 90s my dad decided to update his hi-fi system and gave me his rack of "separates" which included an Onkyo receiver, graphic EQ, tape deck, technics turntable, and Sony 5 CD changer, and a Sony R2R. I lived with 4 other guys with eclectic musical tastes so I would make a 3 hr mix tape on the R2R and then we would just let that thing run. No one at college was very familiar with R2R so it was like a vintage UFO landing in the living room for some people. The SQ was great and I loved everything about it but finding blank tape reels was (despite cassette tapes being big at the time) a challenge so I reused my minuscule stash for the 4 years of college party mixes and eventually the Sony R2R was traded in with the rest of those separates to a shop in Boulder, CO called Second Sound when I opted to upgrade after graduating. Sometimes I think about getting a new-to-me R2R but I'm not sure I would get much use out of it these days other than as hi-fi shelf candy and conversation starter for visitors. |
Nice that we agree on something. I do not expect I will use the Nagra for anything but display. I do not have any recent experience with tape machines. I did at one time own a Revox A77. However the outlet I was affiliated with did live recordings of classical and folk music with a Studer deck which I had loads of experience with and we used an HQD system to play the recordings back. Some of them were actually released. From a sonic perspective at the time you could do no better. A good digital recording on my current system is superior in every way. There is far less distortion and and superior bass. The biggest problem with modern digital recordings is the compression used which SUCKS. This is the main reason I like certain older vinyl recordings better and this might make certain prerecorded tapes better. But, with identical uncompressed recordings digital will win every time unless you like listening to distortion which many people do. Unfortunately, that distortion also produces a less vivid image. I am very comfortable with this assessment to the point where I have no plans to purchase another tape machine. The value in it is awful and I would rather spend the money on music. The best of them are wonderful machines but like Idler turntables are a thing of the past and IMHO belong in museums. On the other hand I drive an old 911 which in no way can keep up with a modern 911, but it has way more character and is much more fun to drive. So, I understand the attraction to old tape machines. If that is your thing and you have the room, Enjoy. He who dies with the most machines wins! |
thanks @mijostyn for the response. it’s a huge effort these days to have a top tape deck and acquire the proper media, and few have the commitment to do it. but it does deliver fully. it’s kind of a crazy thing, to be honest about it. dabbling in more consumer or broadcast/prosumer decks is not the same as a fully sorted master recorder either. and then there are hot rodded master recorders, and then ones with the best possible output electronics....the MR-70. so it takes alot to touch the stars with tape. but it’s awesome. the air cooled 911’s don’t make sense either, but i get that fully. although i did the 16’ CS2 thing myself in my Porsche phase a few years ago. i smiled every time i sat down in it. |
As I'm getting older I appreciate convenience whenever possible. This is also true regarding audio, where I stream most of my music.. However, I still enjoy listening to my Nakamichi ZX7 from time to time. It produces far more distortion than my digital sources, yet still sounds good after 40 years. I used to own a Revox B77 Mark II and before that a Revox A77. Both were great sounding decks, but I sold the A77 because it was not very reliable. The B77 on the other hand was very reliable. IMHO there's something enjoyable about handling physical media that is absent with streaming technology. So I enjoy the best of both worlds by using both technologies. |
@kraftwerkturbo That depends on storage. They need to be stored in a low humidity environment to prevent shedding of the oxide on which the recording exists. It that is done the tape will last decades with ease. For this reason its better to store tapes in an attic rather than a basement! Its also a good idea to store the tape in a plastic bag in its box, along with a packet of Silica Gel. |
@kraftwerkturbo It depends. I purchased a case (10 reels) of Maxell 35-180 UD tape in 1981. A few years later, I purchased two cases (20 reels) of "Ampex GM-3600 Grand Master Professional Recording Tape." From the mid 90’s to the mid 2000's, my R2R sat mostly unused, but I would play a reel on rare occasions. Around the mid 2000’s, I noticed my Ampex tapes started to sound muddy and were leaving a lot of residue on the tape heads, pinch rollers, and transport mechanism so I had to stop using them (because they sounded like crap). My Maxell reels are still playing just fine. |
When my Ampex tapes went bad, I found out they were very prone to SSS (Sticky Shed Syndrome) SSS Syndrome. List Of Known SSS Tapes. |
Well the 993 was supposed to fix the “ Dr killer “ reputation of the 911. …. As to using an HQD ( good as it was at the time, i owned at that time a version of it ) and a 30 year old sonic memory to judge a format….is like the knee jerk throttle lift of a…. dr… i do, occasionally regret selling the 993, except for the wonderful smell of aircooled hot oil and leather, the X-50 was better in every way…. |
Dare I try to offer an explanation of why some perceive R2R to sound better than the source when a vinyl or CD is put to tape. I think it's about the lens at which we listen to music. R2R, like vinyl, takes a tiny signal and blows it up onto a big canvas (or at least it does with good machines/preamp circuits). It makes everything lifesize. The fact that the lion's share of recorded music before say 1990 was originally committed to tape in the first place might mean that getting the music back on the original "canvas" type can put everything closer in place to the original recording. The perspective of tape and vinyl, I think, is what makes some people perceive it to be more pleasing than digital. That can happen despite noise. With regard to the sub master reel tapes made from the original masters or safety masters (e.g. Chad Kassem's work, Tape Project, etc.), it does seem that most listeners find them to be very present, clear, and musical. Currently, I'm rolling Oscar Petersen's "We Get Requests" in 15ips. My EQ is set at NAB, which is incorrect for this recording. I haven't had the opportunity to address changing the resistors on the playback board for CCIR/IEC2 equalization yet. Guess what? It's stupendous. While I certainly agree there's tiny amount of 15ips reel-to-reel recordings out there that we can easily access, those that are out there give me hope that we will see more and more added. If I could get 15 recordings in each of the big genres (say jazz, rock, folk, country, etc.) and those recordings were classics (think Waltz for Debby, Dark Side of the Moon, Willie Nelson/Waylon Jennings, and so on) I'd say this is a worthwhile exercise. Tape sounds present, large, dynamic, powerful, clean and lovely. If done right it takes you there. I have no issue committing time and resources to it. Frankly, I think high quality tape has shown me (subjectively) I'm better off playing in tape than buying "better components" over and over. |
We all now the 'cone area' comparison (neglecting the effect of the throw to determine SPL) for woofers.
Does this also play into the midrange cones? My concern: bookshelf speaker plus subwoofer(s) to "FILL" (SPL) large room with sound in the low to mid range (above say 100 Hz when using 2 subs, above 60 Hz using just one sub)? Is that were larger, multi-driver speakers have an inherant advantage?
How to calculate cone area Cone area = pi x (r x r) pi = 3.14 r = radius of sub One 8" = 50.27 One 10" = 78.54 One 12" = 113.1 One 15" = 176.71 One 18" = 254.47 Two 8" = 100.53 Two 10" = 157.08 Two 12" = 226.19 Two 15" = 353.43 Two 18" = 508.94 Three 8" = 150.8 Three 10" = 235.62 Three 12" = 339.29 Three 15" = 530.14 Three 18" = 763.41 Four 8" = 201.06 Four 10" = 314.16 Four 12" = 452.39 Four 15" = 706.86 Four 18" = 1017.87 |
